Long bow, war bow



  • SO i have a quick questoin about the bows in the game and about their actual historical use and identificatoin (Has nothing to do with the mechanics as they work in the game,)

    But there were many types of long bows. but can be broken up into two catagorys. the standard long bow, and a Welsh long bow, (or english long bow depending on who you talk to) And, is sometimes called a war bow, Though solemnly… Is the the war bow as it is in the game a welsh long bow?

    I ask simply for my own pleasure, and since there isnt a history board anywhere on the forum i asked here… Does anyone know or is there a designated “war bow” i’m not familiar with?



  • @sonoskay:

    SO i have a quick questoin about the bows in the game and about their actual historical use and identificatoin (Has nothing to do with the mechanics as they work in the game,)

    But there were many types of long bows. but can be broken up into two catagorys. the standard long bow, and a Welsh long bow, (or english long bow depending on who you talk to) And, is sometimes called a war bow, Though solemnly… Is the the war bow as it is in the game a welsh long bow?

    I ask simply for my own pleasure, and since there isnt a history board anywhere on the forum i asked here… Does anyone know or is there a designated “war bow” i’m not familiar with?

    The game is set in its own world and isn’t historically accurate. Its mostly set in the late 13th century. In fact a date I did find was 1266 which was the beginning of the invasion of Tenosia which puts the game in 1269 onwards.

    When the English were fighting the welsh the English were using smaller bows similar to the games short bow while the Welsh were using their longbows. So the English were out ranged. The Welsh longbows also could easily down many of the English heavy troops. It didn’t really matter because the welsh hardly ever had heavy troops. Their armies most comprised of a massive peasant mob backed up by mercenaries who don’t really have much of an allegiance to the welsh. So most English casualties were done by their archers.

    The English used longbows after the last war with the welsh. If you exclude a few uprisings after the battle of crecy in 1346 that’s when they became been popular. The battle of Agincourt in 1416 is probably the most famous longbow victory. With the English being out numbered and 5 in 6 English and Welsh soldiers that day were longbowmen. English casualties being a rather precise 112 and French casualties ranging between 7000-10,000 and 1500 taken prisoner. The rest routed.

    The chivalry longbow is rather short. It looks like a longbow by design but its rather small.

    And the english and welsh longbows are actually the same thing. Its just that Wales has been English territory and if you point at Wales and ask someone where that is they will say England. Also the welsh didn’t have famous victories with longbows. They just inflicted numerous casualties but still lost.

    The Welsh made it but the English made it famous.

    Though European longbows are no match for the kapanese longbow. The yumi bow. The longest being 2.1 metres I think.



  • The Yumi? That thing looks like a pain to use, weird draw on it. Also for some reason you have to take 10 mins to draw and fire it ;P



  • @Toll:

    The Yumi? That thing looks like a pain to use, weird draw on it. Also for some reason you have to take 10 mins to draw and fire it ;P

    The yumi is interesting as its longer on the top than it is on the bottom. So you can have a really big bow. I was wrong the longest yumi bows were 2.5m long. And bow size and arrow length were all based on the height of the archer. This meant in volley fire all the arrows went at the same speed and so went the same distance. Bows and arrows were made for the user. Though the Japanese mostly made their own weapons.



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  • @benj0.0:

    on a side-note the bodkin arrow is another weapon that is generally misunderstood. The theory that it was used for armour piecing against mail armour was based on assumptions and there are no historical documents which back that up. The assumption was that because the arrow was more slender, it would pass through the links of a mail suit. However there are a few problems with this theory. First of all the rings used in period armour typically measured 6-8mm which provides far less gaps than the 10+mm rings used in modern mail that researchers were used to seeing.

    In addition while a slimmer arrow head may seem better vs mail it actually performs worse against cloth armour. Both knights and regular troops often worse two types of cloth armour; 1 was padded and was intended to provide resistance to impact underneath the main armour. The 2nd type was layered cloth stitched or glued together to form an hard external armour. This was often wore over mail (10-15 layers) or as stand-alone armour for lighter troops (15-20 layers). While this armour was not great against spears or good cutting swords, tests have shown it offers excellent protection vs arrows, and especially bodkin arrows due to the lack of cutting heads on them.

    Secondly, tests on the heads of bodkins arrows recovered from agincourt shows that the iron was unhardened. In general weapons designed for metal armour penetration have to be hardened; broadhead arrows recovered from the battlefield show hardening but none of the bodkin heads did. There were also numerous hardened crossbow bolt heads found.

    Based these above facts some researchers now believe that bodkin arrows were instead a type of flight arrow, intended for harassing the enemy at longer range. Ballistic tests indeed show the bodkin has a more ideal shape for distance over the traditional broadhead. While this is just a theory it does seem pretty unlikely that the English at the time intended bodkins as a pure armour piercing tool.

    This.

    However, they easily would have went through chainmaille. I’m not sure that layers of silk would have stopped it, either.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gPgHyaG1Q

    You sound like you shoot, too. What kind of bow?



  • ^yeah, i’ve seen that video too, and if you read the discription, the makers themselves admit that chainmail offers far better protection against arrows then they make it appear, because of the range they were shooting at it, the quality of the chainmail especially that it’s butted, and the hard, immobile backing. not to mention it’s a perpendicular hit.

    any hit from proper range, at some slanting angle, against riveted chain mail, at a more squishy background will have far less chance of penetrating.



  • The notion that medieval armies were comprised of peasants is another Victorian era misconception. The majority of combatants were professional soldiers who had years of training, although not all of them had the money to be equipped as well as the knights were. Even to a longbowman took considerable training, physical conditioning and strength and most of these archers had been training since their youth.

    . While its true it took years of training to reliably use a longbow, But the welsh. The first users of the longbow and in some historical documents the best users. Used it as a way of life. they were not professional fighters. While they did have separate war bands and people trained for battle in major battles they did use untraid fighters. particularly welshmen who were not so much farmers as they were hunters and herders, almost any Welshman worth his salt knew how to use a longbow. and were quiet good to boot. And further they were not professional fighters but did fight in their lords army if the warband wasnt big enough to match the opposing army. HOWEVER. Aside from the welsh, the English, frank,spanish,ect, Did have very armies made up of nothing but professoinal fighters.

    And i cannot say if welsh longbows were they effective against plate and chainmail as much as some say… but here is what i do know…

    Battle of Agincourt: Was a battle of 6000 to 8000 english, (4/5s of witch were longbow men.) against the freanch army of a popular estiment of about 30,000 strong. and an estimated 10,000 were knights… and 1,200 were mounted… i will not go into details of the battle but. the casualties were a mere 100 or so men for the english, most of witch were chalpins or supply caravans outside of the battle… the freanch casualties are estimated to be anywhere between 6000,and 10,000 dead. 1000 of witch were knights… so just from what i know of this battle it seems very pluasable that longbows were still fairly effective of punching though that though,heavy armor.



  • @sonoskay:

    The notion that medieval armies were comprised of peasants is another Victorian era misconception. The majority of combatants were professional soldiers who had years of training, although not all of them had the money to be equipped as well as the knights were. Even to a longbowman took considerable training, physical conditioning and strength and most of these archers had been training since their youth.

    . While its true it took years of training to reliably use a longbow, But the welsh. The first users of the longbow and in some historical documents the best users. Used it as a way of life. they were not professional fighters. While they did have separate war bands and people trained for battle in major battles they did use untraid fighters. particularly welshmen who were not so much farmers as they were hunters and herders, almost any Welshman worth his salt knew how to use a longbow. and were quiet good to boot. And further they were not professional fighters but did fight in their lords army if the warband wasnt big enough to match the opposing army. HOWEVER. Aside from the welsh, the English, frank,spanish,ect, Did have very armies made up of nothing but professoinal fighters.

    And i cannot say if welsh longbows were they effective against plate and chainmail as much as some say… but here is what i do know…

    Battle of Agincourt: Was a battle of 6000 to 8000 english, (4/5s of witch were longbow men.) against the freanch army of a popular estiment of about 30,000 strong. and an estimated 10,000 were knights… and 1,200 were mounted… i will not go into details of the battle but. the casualties were a mere 100 or so men for the english, most of witch were chalpins or supply caravans outside of the battle… the freanch casualties are estimated to be anywhere between 6000,and 10,000 dead. 1000 of witch were knights… so just from what i know of this battle it seems very pluasable that longbows were still fairly effective of punching though that though,heavy armor.

    A big problem the welsh had is that they did not have a large professional army. The welsh made their longbow in the mid 7th century AD. And it was the best in all of Europe and the Middle East. The English later used the same design and many longbowmen in English service were welsh. But the welsh armies were made up of proud welsh men who were pretty much peasants that wanted to defend their homeland. Most welsh armies were very I’ll-equipped.

    With Agincourt the French were too cocky. And obviously hadn’t heard of the battle of crecy. So the French just sent their noblemen in. Their armoured men at arms and Calvary. The French had quite a lot of crossbowmen but held them back. If they had used them the outcome of the battle could have been different. The French had to march over muddy ground getting shot at and many accounts said that they had no shields. By the time the French got to the English line they were tired, wounded and were dismayed at the loss of so many. They couldn’t even fight the longbowmen because of their armour. And the fact they were stuck in he mud and tired. The more nimble and fresh archers could cut them down with hatchets.



  • Thanks for “summing” this up benj0.0, was a pleasure to read. Do you know how to shoot a welsh longbow?



  • I’d like to echo everything benj0.0 has said.

    As for the OP’s question, we can assume the game’s warbow is simply a longbow with a higher draw weight.



  • As for the OP’s question, we can assume the game’s warbow is simply a longbow with a higher draw weight.

    I have drawn a conclusion from my own research and what has been said here…
    First is that the long bow isnt a propper longbow. What ever it is, its not a “Traditoinal” 6 foot long bow. (or if you are shorter than 6 foot a long bow would most likely match the users height.) it is quiet a bit shorter than that, But i cannot say what bow it is. maybe one that is simply made for the game (a reasonable thing) condsidering many historical games take liberties when dealing with weapons of the time pereod. and the warbow is a proper long bow… and wether it is made of yew , elm or ash I cannot say, (the traditoinal wood of a welsh/english longbow or “Warbow”) and from what i read most welsh long bows exceed the height of the user. and i cannot say if this is the case for the warbow in game. SO at the very least. the warbow In the game is a long bow, and the long bowin the game is a “shorter longbow” for a lack of a better term.



  • [–]AnAvidArcher 687 points 1 day ago
    A flatbow is just another name for the American Longbow. Technicaly speaking, a longbow or flatbow is any bow who’s string doesn’t touch the limbs of the bow anywhere except the string nock when it is strung.
    However, when people say longbow, they are often thinking of the English Longbow. For a longbow to actually be an English longbow a cross section of the stave would look like a D, shown here
    http://poorfolkbows.com/images/comparebows.JPG and http://www.greenmanlongbows.co.uk/image … ns%201.jpg .
    The American Flatbow, or Flatbow, is still technically a longbow because the string only touches the bow at the nocks when braced, but it’s limbs are more like rectangles than D’s.
    Concerning recurve bows, most recurves are composite bows. The reason for this its that it’s very difficult to get a limb bent in a recurve bow fashion, even with fire or steam, and if made out of wood alone they will likely break or take set and eventually become straight.
    The differences in bow type can be seen throughout the world, and its easy to see how a race of people made different styles depending on their materials available and skill.
    In the western hemisphere(North and South America), bows were usually simple, short versions of longbows. Often made of Osage, Mulberry, Hickory or Dogwood, they were usually backed with sinew for added strength. Generally they were not more than 40-50 pounds.
    In Western Europe, i.e. England, Scotland, France, bows were commonly of the English Longbow archetype, often made from Yew. Travel farther East and Mongolians and the Huns were the experts of horseback archery. Their bows were elaborate constructions of wood, horn, sinew and hide glue. Their bows most commonly looked similar to this(http://classic-bow.com/catalog/images/h … ry_019.jpg) although there were differences among different cultures and sub-cultures.
    Down south some, in what is now known as the Middle East, lied another group of master archers. The Persians(Which is modern day Iran) the Scythians, the Byzantines(Modern day Turkey gobblegobble) Used bows very similar in construction to the Huns and Mongols horsebows.
    Farther more to the east lied the Empires of Japan, Korea, and China. Japan practiced archery as what they call Kyudo. Their bows were very peculiar looking, being many feet long, although they were held in the lower two thirds of the bow’s length(like this http://mundomarcial.site40.net/images/kyudo.jpg) Their bows were tillered for this style of shooting, as was their warfare. The reason they first developed shooting like this is because they often fought in two man groups, one guy with a shield, and one bowman. With a bow like this, the bowman could kneel behind a shield and shoot safely.
    China and Korea, but mostly China were the great engineers and inventors of their time. Honestly I’m not too sure about their history of archery, although I know they developed the crossbow before just about anyone else and became the first to use rocketry/gunpowder in warfare.

    ripped strait from reddit



  • Well in my opinion, the longbow in game looks like a Victorian longbow used for target archery after gunpowder weapons replaced archer in warfare. The war bow looks like the type of bow that would have been used around the 100 years war time period.



  • @sonoskay:

    As for the OP’s question, we can assume the game’s warbow is simply a longbow with a higher draw weight.

    I have drawn a conclusion from my own research and what has been said here…
    First is that the long bow isnt a propper longbow. What ever it is, its not a “Traditoinal” 6 foot long bow. (or if you are shorter than 6 foot a long bow would most likely match the users height.) it is quiet a bit shorter than that, But i cannot say what bow it is. maybe one that is simply made for the game (a reasonable thing) condsidering many historical games take liberties when dealing with weapons of the time pereod. and the warbow is a proper long bow… and wether it is made of yew , elm or ash I cannot say, (the traditoinal wood of a welsh/english longbow or “Warbow”) and from what i read most welsh long bows exceed the height of the user. and i cannot say if this is the case for the warbow in game. SO at the very least. the warbow In the game is a long bow, and the long bowin the game is a “shorter longbow” for a lack of a better term.

    Any D shaped bow with straight limbs which is generally long can be called a longbow. There isn’t a specific height it needs to reach in order to qualify as a longbow, but generally it would be slightly taller than its user. It doesn’t necessarily have to be 6 foot, and bear in mind 6 foot would be quite tall for someone of the period. From memory the longbow in the game seems to be roughly the same height as the archer, more or less.



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  • @Escadin:

    Thanks for “summing” this up benj0.0, was a pleasure to read. Do you know how to shoot a welsh longbow?

    I’ve done some training in medieval fencing but unfortunately I’ve never had the opportunity to do any proper training with the Welsh/English warbow. I’ve trained/competed in quite a few martial arts including judo in Japan which gave me the opportunity to also get some practice with kendo and kyudo (Japanese archery) teams. Therefore I have had the opportunity to handle (i.e. play around with) modern yumi and replica English warbows.

    I’m a pretty strong guy, I can deadlift 550 pounds and knock out nearly 30 pullups, but I have to say that a high power warbow was not an easy thing to draw. I didn’t have too much trouble with the yumi I handled but the 100 pound warbow I played with took quite a bit of effort. With practice I’m pretty sure I would have gotten used to it but it did give me a lot of respect for people who can fire them regularly. There is quite a lot of technique involved and it feels very different than firing a smaller modern bow.



  • To think that 100 lbs is where they start… Olympic recurve bows are generally at 65 lbs and I myself are perfectly happy with my 38 lbs. I’d definetly like to see a warbow in reallife action and I wonder how big the difference between each of these bow’s shots is.
    Ofc drawing such a bow requires a certain set of muscles to be highly trained and used to this very special kind of physical strain.



  • @Escadin:

    To think that 100 lbs is where they start… Olympic recurve bows are generally at 65 lbs and I myself are perfectly happy with my 38 lbs. I’d definetly like to see a warbow in reallife action and I wonder how big the difference between each of these bow’s shots is.
    Ofc drawing such a bow requires a certain set of muscles to be highly trained and used to this very special kind of physical strain.

    3Rivers Archery has a really nice bamboo-backed English warbow. One day I’d like to trade in my Fred Bear Montana for one, but I’ve got some beefing up to do first.

    Also, really hard to find arrows properly spined for such a bow.

    I had no idea that Olympic recurves went up that high. I know they have to shoot seventy yards, but I had no idea they needed such a draw wight.

    I’d do Olympic style shooting, if they had a traditional division or something. I don’t like those “bows” with the three-foot stabilizers. Good old Fred Bear Montana Longbow for me.


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