Dominated Weapons



  • Well, there are some weapons that are just weaker options of other weapons available to the same class. People might use them because they like the design or because they like a challenge but ultimately there is nothing to save it. There is another option that is just plain better in every single task.

    The ones found so far:
    Shortbow (dominated by Lead Sling)
    Broad Dagger* (dominated by Thrusting Dagger)
    Flail (dominated by Morning Star)
    Heavy Flail (dominated by Warhammer)

    Suggestions that turned out inaccurate:
    Spear (not dominated by Brandistock - advantages matter in direct battle)
    Double Axe (not dominated by Grand Mace - better for fighting Archers in melee)

    I would like to get a complete lists of this kind of weapons so feel free to add suggestions. If somebody can disprove a domination (by showing that there is a task the “dominated” weapon performs better at than the dominating one) please alos do it.

    Also if a weapon is not competitive because it is outclassed by a combination of weapons but not by a single one or by being extremely niche it does not belong on this list.

    *might have a reach advantage but no confirmed impact on performance



  • Flail (dominated by Morning Star)
    Heavy Flail (dominated by Warhammer)

    I made some balance ideas for the flails base directly off of this thought a few weeks ago. I’ll linky.

    viewtopic.php?f=84&t=15242

    EDIT: fixed now, all good.



  • @Evil:

    The ones I have found so far:
    Shortbow (dominated by Lead Sling)
    Broad Dagger (dominated by Thrusting Dagger)

    I’d probably say these two are subjective.

    Bows and slings have different attack points… slings function like javelins in their delayed release, making it slightly harder to aim id say.

    Broad Dagger has significantly more range than thrusting dagger, and both are good in comparison to each other.


  • Global Moderator

    @NoVaLombardia:

    @Evil:

    The ones I have found so far:
    Shortbow (dominated by Lead Sling)
    Broad Dagger (dominated by Thrusting Dagger)

    I’d probably say these two are subjective.

    Bows and slings have different attack points… slings function like javelins in their delayed release, making it slightly harder to aim id say.

    Broad Dagger has significantly more range than thrusting dagger, and both are good in comparison to each other.

    I agree here. I personally do better with the shortbow and broad dagger Than I do the sling and thrusting dagger



  • Messer dominates longsword/sword of war
    Maul dominates grand mace



  • @SOC:

    Maul dominates grand mace

    You’re joking right? Maul is the dominant team play weapon of the two and grand mace is the dominant duel weapon of the two.

    Here’s a few: Grand mace>Dub axe, Greatsword>Zwei, Brandistock>Spear, Shortsword>Saber



  • @SOC:

    Messer dominates longsword/sword of war
    Maul dominates grand mace

    Maul and Grand Mace both have their place in team play.

    As does Messer against Longs / SoW



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Bows and slings have different attack points… slings function like javelins in their delayed release, making it slightly harder to aim id say.

    Thats a tricky one because of the slings chargeup. I am also not sure how this translates into tasks as you will have to aim and its not that much of a difference. The Sling (with lead ammo) deals more (maximum) damage, has a higher rate of fire (reloads faster) and allows you to stay mobile. Range is about the same so the delayed release might actaully be more academic without giving the Shortbow an advantage in any task.
    @NoVaLombardia:

    Broad Dagger has significantly more range than thrusting dagger, and both are good in comparison to each other.

    Really? As far as I know thats true for the Hunting Knife but the Broad Dagger should have the same reach and less damage than the Thrusting Dagger. Its overhead and slash attacks are a little faster but I can’t see how this translates to a real advantage as the Thrusting Dagger is still extremely fast and deal much more damage. Also its stab is as fast as the Broad Daggers but more powerful.
    @SOC:

    Messer dominates longsword/sword of war

    I like to disagree here. The Messer might deal the most damage but its slower and has less reach. This directly translates into disadvantages when fighting clusters of enemies (especially when compared to the Longsword) or in 1on1 engagements (the Sword of War should be better here).
    @Jstorm:

    Grand mace>Dub axe

    I feel the Double Axe is niche but not completely dominated as it has a higher damage output (DPS) and its higher probability to oneshot Archers might give it an adavantage when facing one in melee. It feels more suited for close combat damage support.
    @Jstorm:

    Greatsword>Zwei

    A similar argument here. The Greatsword does perform better at most tasks but the Zweihänder has a higher reach coupled with the ability to oneshot ligher classes more easily. DPS wise its only better when you use the overhead but thats enough to make the difference in teamfighting.
    @Jstorm:

    Brandistock>Spear

    This seems to be true. While a little bit shorter (seems barely noticeable) and a little bit slower overall it looks like these advantages don’t really translate into better performance (the Brandstocks stab is both stronger and faster).
    @Jstorm:

    Shortsword>Saber

    No. The Saber is longer, deals more damage to lighter classes and is more balanced in its attacks. The Shortsword is faster, deals more damage to heavier classes and is more stab-centered. In fighting lighter classes the Saber should be more effective because its overhead attack beats the Shortswords powerful stab here.



  • @Jstorm:

    Brandistock>Spear

    I’m sure Dubjay would disagree :P

    @Evil:

    @Jstorm:

    Shortsword>Saber

    No. The Saber is longer, deals more damage to lighter classes and is more balanced in its attacks. The Shortsword is faster, deals more damage to heavier classes and is more stab-centered. In fighting lighter classes the Saber should be more effective because its overhead attack beats the Shortswords powerful stab here.

    The saber got a pretty decent buff, enough to possibly bring it to the level of shortsword.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @Evil:

    @Jstorm:

    Shortsword>Saber

    No. The Saber is longer, deals more damage to lighter classes and is more balanced in its attacks. The Shortsword is faster, deals more damage to heavier classes and is more stab-centered. In fighting lighter classes the Saber should be more effective because its overhead attack beats the Shortswords powerful stab here.

    The saber got a pretty decent buff, enough to possibly bring it to the level of shortsword.

    Yeah I just checked the spreadsheet. I didn’t realize the saber actually got some pretty nice buffs.

    @Evil:

    @Jstorm:

    Grand Mace>Dub Axe

    I feel the Double Axe is niche but not completely dominated as it has a higher damage output (DPS) and its higher probability to oneshot Archers might give it an adavantage when facing one in melee. It feels more suited for close combat damage support.

    Lies! They’re both short, have the same HTK against knights and Vgs but the Dub Axe is slower. Also, oneshotting archers really doesn’t matter unless you’re sneaking up behind them. Wellll it still wouldn’t matter because if you sneak up behind an archer you’re garunteed the kill if you’re not an idiot.



  • Competitively, pretty much any bow dominates javelins. That is not to say, a player can’t excel competitively with javelins, but an archer with a bow can generally play that role for much longer (ammunition count/total damage potential), safer (longer range) and better (faster projectile speed/total damage potential).

    Brandistock > fork…Hopefully one day, the fork will have its place.



  • Light Crossbow is now viable in competitive play it seems.



  • lies spear>brandistock; greater reach & faster overhead(big stab)



  • @farmy:

    lies spear>brandistock; greater reach & faster overhead(big stab)

    The brandi got buffed to OPness(Oh penis hahah :P) recently. You should try it. Pretty much every competitive vanguard uses it.



  • @Jstorm:

    @farmy:

    lies spear>brandistock; greater reach & faster overhead(big stab)

    The brandi got buffed to OPness(Oh penis hahah :P) recently. You should try it. Pretty much every competitive vanguard uses it.

    Spear has by far the superior sprite. Very important for competition.

    cover post: extra ammo dominates pavise shield



  • @Escadin:

    cover post: extra ammo dominates pavise shield

    …wat



  • This is interesting and i agree, however some people just have different playstyles and like certain weapons.

    I still like longsword for example or Sow Over the messer. I like the sow better because of it’s speed, and i like the range of longsword better. The messer i still hardly use, but still do from time to time.
    For knight axe weapons, i still think the poleaxe is the best one, but i would still grab a maul over anything else if i’m not using a sword.

    Vanguard, i think the greatsword is still the tits over claymore and zwei, faster than zwei but damn near as powerful, and more power than the claymore because i don’t have issue going against claymores, but they certainly feel it when i overhead them back with my greatsword. Spear and brandi argument is there but i have to agree that the brandi is probably the better choice, it’s whether you want speed or damage really. I still see little reason to use the fork other than spamming overhead attack (which works great btw)

    Maa, i would just say that theres little reason to go primary with a mace unless they’re heavy on knights, more reason to pick a sword or an axe than anything now, maces are just not as good as an all around killer. Instead of a mace you could use the qstaff now. The hatchet is pretty shit now due to it’s terrible range and inability to attackdodge.

    Archer, well i actually love the shortbow. Something about being able to pluck people with arrows quickly appeals to me, and i use the new bodkins with it. The crossbows are a total joke right now, i think they’re OP but you can shun me for that later. I think all of the archer secondaries are pretty viable now as well, best choices being saber, or shortsword for me. Cudgel too although i don’t sue that one as much for some reason.



  • @Escadin:

    Spear has by far the superior sprite. Very important for competition.

    This.
    Brandistock is far stronger, little bit slower and little bit shorter but for the love of god I cant read its reach when I wield it. For me the spear is clearly the winner.



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    Archer, well i actually love the shortbow. Something about being able to pluck people with arrows quickly appeals to me, and i use the new bodkins with it.

    I highly recommend teaming up with another shortbow on a pub and just rolling around together laying down rapid fire on anyone who tries to approach you. One of the most fun things I’ve done in this game!

    And to OP, what about the Falchion? Granted, the weapon works and has a wicked overhead, but any serious MAA or Knight player I see will go for the Broadsword or the Norse Sword over the Falchion. It has the worst poke out of these weapons which makes it unattractive to players who riposte, and we all know that its stubbiness doesn’t help.



  • ^ falchions are good for knights, LMB spam.