Man at Arms Dodge



  • Alright, first off i would like to say that i love and care for this game deeply, great job torn banner, you guys are very talented and you made a great game.

    Now, something just happened to me ingame, and i just had to alt tab and make a thread about it.

    My class: Man at arms. Weapon: Broadsword, no shield.

    I was fighting two vanguards, one had a polehammer and another had a claymore, it was on Stoneshill TDM, i was on the mason order and i was around the area in between where there is the bushes surrounded by a stone encasing that you can effectively hide in while crouching and looking down, and the iron gate that you can squeeze through as a sort of shortcut to the main plaza, on the agatha side of the map. This information is pretty much irrelevant, but i just wanted to set the scenario.

    The one with the Polehammer is the guy that i started fighting first, and the one with the Claymore came in 2 or so seconds later. Polehammer guy was not really a threat at all, didn’t land a hit on me, and i just had to hit him one more time before he was dead. His swings didn’t have anything to do with my death.

    Now comes Vanguard Number 2 with the Claymore. I was doing a continuous combo on the first vanguard with the polehammer, a mish mash of stabs, horizontals, and overheads. As vanguard number 2 with the claymore starts to look like he is ready to near in for an attack on my right side (van #1 on my left), i drag and go to shift my combo over to him, but he manages to strike me first, him starting a 2 hit LMB combo, and my combo stops. I get flinched. I frantically mashed my S key (i double tap dodge) to get out of the way after he hit me with the first swing, but no matter what, he got in a second hit with his LMB combo before i was even done being flinched, or whatever limitation it is that put me in a completely unable to dodge state, and i died, 2 hits, nothing i could do.

    I tested this out with a friend quickly on a duel server (thanks Nyan Khajiit), and yes, it ALWAYS happens. To test, i stood there comboing away with the broadsword, and he hit me in between my combos to interrupt me, turned it into a combo and followed up immediately after with a second LMB swing, and in between the first and second swing he landed on me, i pressed S as fast as i possibly could, and i was still unable to dodge out of the way before his second swing hit me.

    In summary: claymore (and possibly other weapons?) hits you once, you are dead.

    Now i don’t know about you guys, but this is a HUGE PROBLEM. Whether or not the claymore is OP, no weapon should be able to combo a man at arms twice before he is able to dodge away from the second swing, whether that will be balanced on the speed of the weapon, or the mechanics which prevent him from dodging away. Considering the amount of people that now use vanguard with the claymore, this is a HUGE problem for MAA players, and who knows what other weapons can do this.

    P.S. now that i think of it, it might make sense for a few 1handers to be able to do this, but DEFINITELY, not in a MILLION YEARS, should a claymore, or any 2handed weapon be able to do this to a man at arms! You got 1 hit in? Great, at least allow me to use the class how it was intended to be used and be able to defend myself against the second swing in the combo!

    I really hope that this issue gets looked at, and a smart solution/compromise can be come up with that would make everyone happy in the end. Thanks!



  • If you can’t dodge while you are flinched, then try parrying it instead. The dodge was nerfed in a lot of ways because it was far too effective. Even with the patch, I feel like men at arms are the most dangerous class.



  • Thats what you feel though, there are a lot of people that don’t feel that way. Besides, the way maa was meant to be played, or at least how EVERYONE has learned to play it, with hundreds of hours, is that you should be dodging almost all of the time and only blocking when you MUST. I still need to test again to see if you actually can block in that situation, but i highly, highly doubt it. Once man at arms gets hit now, they are often in a state of helplessness, where beefier classes stronger weapons, larger reach, and more health could have saved them. This is an example of how this can happen to where the man at arms is helpless, even in 1v1! Just think of what SLOWER weapons that CAN’T do this 1v1 do to maa’s in team situations where they are outnumbered, and need thier evasive abilities most of all. I, and other people that play maa often can tell you that post patch, the way it is now, you get stuck way too much as an maa, and there are many situations where your dodge should be able to provide you some sort of help where it currently doesnt. I’m admitting that before, they could have used a nerf, but not this hard. This is coming from someone that considers himself 50% an maa, and 50% a maul knight.



  • Currently the main reason the claymore is OP is because it now has almost 1 hander speed and a 1.1 flinch time. Bearded is OP because of this too, mostly.



  • You are supposed to be able to dodge during flinch. It is a bug right now as stated by Slygoat(?) or someone else.

    Supposedly it is getting fixed next patch so that you will be able to dodge during flinch.



  • viewtopic.php?f=87&t=16074

    Sometimes dodging just flat-out doesn’t work after taking a hit, like you are permanently hobbled until (as far as I can tell) you start and stop sprinting. It’s tough to tell.



  • Thank god…thank you alot NoVa…phew. I also agree that the flinch time for claymore and bearded axe is too long. also the feint combo for the bearded axe is…bleh



  • In the meantime, I suggest learning how to duck the combo swings effectively.
    I play maa with as little dodge as possible now, just like I play melee archer. Sidestep overheads, parry thrusts and duck swings. Saves lots of stamina too.



  • My experience tells me also that dodge can not be performed when flinched. Also, it is not just the claymore, but even a bit slower weapons will hit me mid dodge if I manage to dodge right after the flinch.

    I always try to parry/block after getting hit. But if I get hit in the back, i’m most likely dead if the second hit is launched, where as pre-patch I could dodge forward in time before the second hit lands.



  • @Psyfon:

    Polehammer guy was not really a threat at all, didn’t land a hit on me, and i just had to hit him one more time before he was dead.

    Nobody is “a threat” if you start fighting your enemy with 10% of his life. How sad to read that vain text. However, you’re right on one thing… The Claymore is too fast indeed.



  • “qq vanguards finally have a viable option against me as an MaA plz nerf I miss being completely OP”

    In all srsness, I think everyone agrees claymore is too fast but also too weak and agrees it needs to be slower but 3 shot knights. While I love having an option to be anti-MaA, this doesn’t feel like the answer. Next patch is toning down the 2h flinch time, so maybe it’ll make a difference to you.



  • I think everyone agrees claymore is too fast but also too weak and agrees it needs to be slower but 3 shot knights.

    No… the Claymore speed and damage is fine it’s just the flinch time which is the issue.



  • @Junanagou:

    Nobody is “a threat” if you start fighting your enemy with 10% of his life. How sad to read that vain text. However, you’re right on one thing… The Claymore is too fast indeed.

    No need to be an asshole buddy, maybe i didnt make it clear, but i was the one that got him down to 10% of his life in the first place. I started fighting him and the claymore dude came in before i was able to finish him off.



  • @SOC:

    qq vanguards finally have a viable option against me as an MaA plz nerf I miss being completely OP

    In all srsness, I think everyone agrees claymore is too fast but also too weak and agrees it needs to be slower but 3 shot knights. While I love having an option to be anti-MaA, this doesn’t feel like the answer. Next patch is toning down the 2h flinch time, so maybe it’ll make a difference to you.

    Sounds like you are the one QQing about maa’s prepatch to me. Isn’t that why they were nerfed so horribly in the first place? Anything that can 1shot an maa is anti-MaA, so you guys already had those weapons. But not only is it a viable option, its impossible to evade once stuck with it once. Might as well be a 1hit kill zwie overhead, probably takes around the same time to strike twice with the claymore, first hit already means death, plus you have a much much faster weapon.

    Maa was OP? At least you had to work for the kills. Now, arguably you have to put in even more effort for a kill, with much less result.



  • @Psyfon:

    @SOC:

    qq vanguards finally have a viable option against me as an MaA plz nerf I miss being completely OP

    In all srsness, I think everyone agrees claymore is too fast but also too weak and agrees it needs to be slower but 3 shot knights. While I love having an option to be anti-MaA, this doesn’t feel like the answer. Next patch is toning down the 2h flinch time, so maybe it’ll make a difference to you.

    Sounds like you are the one QQing about maa’s prepatch to me. Isn’t that why they were nerfed so horribly in the first place?

    No he was QQing about MaA wanting to be OP again.

    @1nqnwefm:

    its impossible to evade once stuck with it once.

    Right click

    plus you have a much much faster weapon.

    Sarcasm, right? I don’t pick up on sarcasm very well so you’re either being sarcastic or an idiot.

    Maa was OP? At least you had to work for the kills. Now, arguably you have to put in even more effort for a kill, with much less result.

    Work for kills? Now you have to fight like a normal class with your get out of taking a hit free card restricted. Pre patch it gave your super fast weapon spear reach and it allowed a good MaA to be untouchable for only 15 stamina per get out of taking a hit free card



  • @Jstorm:

    Sarcasm, right? I don’t pick up on sarcasm very well so you’re either being sarcastic or an idiot.

    Oh look another ignorant ass, it’s pretty common knowledge that the claymore is much much faster than the zwiehander, which is exactly what i said.

    @Jstorm:

    Work for kills? Now you have to fight like a normal class with your get out of taking a hit free card restricted. Pre patch it gave your super fast weapon spear reach and it allowed a good MaA to be untouchable for only 15 stamina per get out of taking a hit free card

    Right, just like other classes but with half the health of a knight and can only use knight secondaries. SO OP. Can’t even use dodge half of the time when you need it.



  • @Psyfon:

    @Jstorm:

    Sarcasm, right? I don’t pick up on sarcasm very well so you’re either being sarcastic or an idiot.

    Oh look another ignorant ass, it’s pretty common knowledge that the claymore is much much faster than the zwiehander, which is exactly what i said.

    Oh when I read that I thought you said that the claymore was faster than your MaA’s weapon. Btw I was being genuine, I don’t pick up on sarcasm very well.

    @Jstorm:

    Work for kills? Now you have to fight like a normal class with your get out of taking a hit free card restricted. Pre patch it gave your super fast weapon spear reach and it allowed a good MaA to be untouchable for only 15 stamina per get out of taking a hit free card

    Right, just like other classes but with half the health of a knight and can only use knight secondaries. SO OP. Can’t even use dodge half of the time when you need it.

    Here’s how Fighting MaA works.
    1. Miss because of dodge, go into recovery, panic parry, he feints(however many times that is necessary), you get hit

    2. Miss because of dodge, combo trying to pull something, get smacked in the face because of no CFtP.

    Also, you say MaA has to use knight secondaries like it’s a bad thing. Knight secondaries are very balanced and powerful weapons.



  • @Jstorm:

    2. Miss because of dodge, combo trying to pull something, get smacked in the face because of no CFtP.

    Seperate issue BUT i highly agree on you here, combo feint to parry needs to be in the game and balances shouldnt start being made based on it not being there, because it really NEEDS to be there. Hopefully torn banner listens.

    It’s not like one thing is OP in every way, the game just feels unbalanced in general now with the change in mechanics. Everybody suffers from lack of cftp, and everybody suffers from quick stamina loss (except maybe vanguards because high stamina usage makes swings economy things, and you could argue that with vanguard weps you get more…bang for your buck.)



  • @Jstorm:

    Work for kills? Now you have to fight like a normal class with your get out of taking a hit free card restricted. Pre patch it gave your super fast weapon spear reach and it allowed a good MaA to be untouchable for only 15 stamina per get out of taking a hit free card

    4 stabs to take out a knight, 3 stabs to take out a VG. Yes, we work for our kills. Fight like a normal class? Oh you mean playing the knight using messr and 1 hitting a maa without it being a headshot? Or did you mean Claymore ridiculous windup super fast speed? Is that what your normal class is? For all that bullshit, I’d like to think that we CAN have a free get out of jail card.



  • @Jironasaurus:

    @Jstorm:

    Work for kills? Now you have to fight like a normal class with your get out of taking a hit free card restricted. Pre patch it gave your super fast weapon spear reach and it allowed a good MaA to be untouchable for only 15 stamina per get out of taking a hit free card

    4 stabs to take out a knight, 3 stabs to take out a VG. Yes, we work for our kills. Fight like a normal class? Oh you mean playing the knight using messr and 1 hitting a maa without it being a headshot? Or did you mean Claymore ridiculous windup super fast speed? Is that what your normal class is? For all that bullshit, I’d like to think that we CAN have a free get out of jail card.

    The messer does require a headshot to one shot MaA… The claymore is OP because of the flinch time, not it’s speed because currently it does broadsword damage and is slower than the broadsword by a lot… and no you can’t get a get out of taking a hit free card in the game’s current state, that is, with out CFtP. And 4 hits for a knight and 3 for a vanguard. Yeah, if you use a weaker weapon such as the Broadsword or norse. Try a dane axe or morning star. They’re slow for it’s class but nonetheless they are very fast and like all 1 handers combo feints are uninterruptable by two handers. Get your facts straight.


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