Weapon Talk : Shields



  • (as this one is still missing but important)

    A tertiary choice for all classes but the Vanguard offering some protection against projectiles. While also giving you the option to block multiple strikes using a shield in close combat puts you in a servere disadvantage if your enemy knows about the myriad of counters available.

    All shields:

    • unable to riposte after successful block
    • stamina drain while held up
    • projectile protection hitbox matches visual size
      (but projectile hitboxes are bigger than their visible size)
    • melee deflection hitbox smaller than visual size
      (same as parry hitbox)
    • being kicked with shield hold up results in special dazed state (“stunned”)
    • stamina loss for blocking is <damage blocked="">/ <absorption>(rounded)

    Buckler

    ! Buckler
    ! Size : very small (able to deflect melee attacks below visual size)
    ! Down time : 0.2
    ! Absorption : 4
    ! Stamina drain: 2.5
    ! Fact : Archer and Man at Arms Bucklers block vision just as much as Heater/Kite shield
    !
    ! Heater Shield
    !
    ! >! Heater Shield
    ! >! Size : small
    ! >! Down time : 0.25
    ! >! Absorption : 4.5
    ! >! Stamina drain: >2.5
    ! >! Fact :
    ! >!
    ! >! Kite Shield
    ! >!
    ! >! >! Kite Shield
    ! >! >! Size : medium
    ! >! >! Down time : 0.3
    ! >! >! Absorption : 5
    ! >! >! Stamina drain: <4
    ! >! >! Fact :
    ! >! >!
    ! >! >! Towershield
    ! >! >!
    ! >! >! >! Towerhield
    ! >! >! >! Size : big
    ! >! >! >! Down time : 0.35
    ! >! >! >! Absorption : 6
    ! >! >! >! Stamina drain: 4
    ! >! >! >! Fact :
    ! >! >! >!
    ! >! >! >! Balance discussion.
    ! >! >! >!
    ! >! >! >!
    ! >! >! >! Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    ! >! >! >! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82
    ! >! >! >!
    ! >! >! >! Weapon talk : URL Threads
    ! >! >! >! http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535
    ! >! >! >!
    ! >! >! >! Up to date change suggestions:
    ! >! >! >! Date: 2013/08/01
    ! >! >! >!
    ! >! >! >! >! - melee block hitbox increase
    ! >! >! >! >! - melee block stamina cost decrease</absorption></damage>



  • Is the stamina negation really 4.65 for all shields except the tower?



  • I took them from the spreadsheet. Unfortunately it wasn’t updated since the last patch but I think shield drain values didn’t change. I have no idea how this works for shields but experiments show that those three shields are indeed very close in stamina drain (maybe the Buckler is worse maybe I just believe it to be).

    Blocking with them did drain more stamina than blocking with a Norse Sword. The Kite and Heater Shield are harder to compare as Knights got more stamina than Men at Arms. I also got the impression tht the Towershield makes it harder to react if your enemy goes for a kick.



  • @SlyGoat:

    @Falc:

    Shield drop time goes from .3s (tower) down to .15s (buckler). And the modifiers for stamina damage are also here somewhere on the forums…tower had 5 and all the other shields had 4.75 (or was it 4.5? I’m not sure^^).

    I’m not sure where Martin is getting those absorption numbers for shields, but buckler absorption is 4, heater is 4.5, kite is 5, and tower is 6. Attack damage / shield absorption = stamina lost, so blocking a 100 damage attack with the buckler drains 25 stamina and with the tower drains 17 (it’s rounded to the nearest whole number).

    Shield drop time is actually .2 for buckler, .25 for heater, .3 for kite and .35 for tower. There are also values for stamina drain every second you hold your shield up after a few seconds, from 2.5 per second for buckler to 4 per second for tower, but this rarely comes into play.

    Blocking volume is the same for all blocks and parries with regard to melee attacks - the block area is slightly larger than the area of screen you see at 120 FoV, so a larger block volume would not help you aim your blocks, it would just make blocking more forgiving. Blocking volumes match the visual size of the shield when blocking projectiles, however, for both passive and active blocks, making it harder to hit legs against larger shields - but keep in mind projectile hitboxes are larger than the projectiles themselves (almost every game does this kind of projectile forgiveness to compensate for player positions being slightly off even with good prediction systems) so shooting just past the edge of the shield will indeed be blocked and cause your arrow to appear to be stuck on air.

    Hope this clarifies some things about shields.



  • Allright, updated the numbers. Thanks!



  • @Evil:

    Allright, updated the numbers. Thanks!

    Anytime, ;)



  • Buckler and Heater Shield were allready useless in the past.
    Now that stamina is so much more important those two shilds have hit the bottom of shitty equipment.

    Both shilds have to brought up to the same lvl as the Kite shild in terms of stamina consumtion.

    If it is to much to give archers a decent shild than at least buff the buckler+flail combo.
    Make it so that a buckler used by knights has different stats.



  • Please buff the buckler. It’s horrendous. I’ll copy from my previous posts about it, to give you an idea why it sucks:

    ‘‘Specially when the shield is so big that you barely see you enemy while holding it up, making it abusrdly much harder to spot incoming kicks.’’

    ‘‘Yes, the buckler vision is better than last patch. But when you’re blocking, since the shield is round and not long-shaped like the kiteshield while still being pretty beefy, your sight gets obscured to the point where it’s very hard to spot kicks. And incoming attacks, even.
    I never get kicked when I use kite shield because it’s ez. But tower shield and buckler is just impossible.’’

    ‘‘It’s vision is still horrendous compared to the Kite Shield, while still being described as a ‘‘lighter’’ and more ‘‘agile’’ shield.’’

    ‘‘I’ve excessively used the buckler vs high end people on duel servers for 4 months. And it’s garbage. You are out of stamina after blocking 4 attacks, and it’s gg.’’

    ''It’s just sad. I actually made it work vs great players last patch, my strategy was basically run in, block first hit and swing nonstop with alternative swings and use stab alot since when you got the buckler your stab will attack from the bottom in a straight line, instead of coming from around your shoulder height.
    This makes whichever 1h you’re wielding with the buckler more unpredictable. I always used morning star because the stab is long and so is the weapon, which is good since the buckler also have to keep people far away when you go low on stamina or need to hit people when they can’t hit you (speed is essential for this).

    In this patch it’s impossible to make it work. Atleast as a knight. And i’m serious. You get punished for being a good blocker, since it drains immense staina every time you do it. Did I mention that buckler is harder to block with than the Kite shield, too? Since it looks larger in FP it’s harder to aim it easily at the weapon, specially when it’s a fast weapon and the guy has good footwork. It’s also easier to get hit in the legs, because the shield is round and not long like the kite.

    Also, if your opponent blocks all your facehug attacks and ‘‘drags’’, you’re fucked. Because:
    1. You lose stamina when he blocks you, and you are already fucked stamina wise
    2. You will have to feint, which costs More stamina, you cant afford to waste it
    3. When you block him after doing this ^ you get dazed and it’s gg.

    I find the maul especially unbeatable with the buckler. But every weapon with an aggressive wielder FORCES the buckler user defensive this patch, and that’s how he dies. A defensive Buckler is a dead buckler.’’

    ''Ofc I try kill him ffs. I don’t just go into a corner and hold up the buckler forever and then come on the forums to cry about dying. But as a buckler user, you can’t afford feinting since you’re already low on stamina. The only viable strategy is facehug and alt swings or very twisted stabs/overheads. But if they block that, you’re dead.
    Since he blocks you, you lose stamina, and it’s his turn to attack, you have to block, boom, now you got 50 stamina. You will most likely lose.

    But yeah against bad players like yourself I got no issues. Just mash alt LMB and they die. I’m talking about high level where they block you and read your feints and use riposte excessively, specially lookdown overhead riposte which forces me defensive immediately’’

    ''100% of flail users would also want the buckler to dissapear. It’s a garbage ass ****ing shit shield which serves no purpose in this game other than being a massive stamina drainer pipe.

    But then again, flails and javelins with counter combos would be pretty insane. That’s why they added the bad buckler to flails, to prevent unpredictable or innovative tactics.

    The buckler is just a massive design failure and they will never fix it, fix as in making it viable, it seems.
    Too bad, I loved it when it was semi-viable pre-patch. Not because it was useful in any way, because it isn’t. I loved it because it looked bad ass and unique and was hard to use effectively.’’

    **This is all my posts from this thread viewtopic.php?f=84&t=15770

    let me know what you think pls**



  • Feel like shields need something else; losing riposte is a HUGE disadvantage that I don’t think is entirely made up for with what you gain in blocking, especially given the other downsides listed above.

    An obvious place for improvement is in the shield attack that replaces kick. It’s fairly awful as it is, and acts more as a kick replacement than something unique.

    First up it could have proper tracers that actually make the result match the action. The Flail and Javelin in particular offer great looking buckler swings that look like they should open up multiple opponents, but act just like regular bashes. The kick also offers no mobility, which makes sense seeing as you’re opting to stand on one leg. The shield doesn’t do this, but you still get rooted to the spot while using a bash just the same. It would be much more fun to be able to move, charging in, dodging sideways, or retreating and using it to make some room. Could be too strong, but it’d certainly give them a broader purpose.



  • I still think if you hit a shield in the ‘not-blocking’ stance it should do no damage.
    I have brought this up before, but a lot of the ‘high skill’ players have trouble not hitting shields so…. :?



  • I think sheilds should just be ridoncliously easy to block stuff with because that’s supposed to be the benefit of a sheild but that isn’t the case right now. I think the buckler should have a 25% larger blocking volume than parries, 50% for the buckler, 75% for the kite and 100% larger for the tower.



  • Maybe shields should keep that current effect that is going on at the moment which allows people to block attacks from unintended angles?

    Or would that be too drastic?



  • I think the combination of no riposte + shield down time is a bit much.

    Considering all the disadvantages you get from having a shield, being able to block arrows doesn’t seem like all that much.

    Lower the shield down time and/or the stamina drain IMO. That makes shields either good for melee or good for support.



  • @Dr:

    I think the combination of no riposte + shield down time is a bit much.

    Considering all the disadvantages you get from having a shield, being able to block arrows doesn’t seem like all that much.

    Lower the shield down time and/or the stamina drain IMO. That makes shields either good for melee or good for support.

    I think they should just have larger blocking volume like I said earlier, to make up for allll the downsides.



  • Lower the shield down time and/or the stamina drain IMO. That makes shields either good for melee or good for support.

    You can do both - lower down time for smaller shields while lowering stamina drain the bigger shield it is. Right now the only bright point of a buckler seems to be its ability to shield-stab. In case of a tower shield I dislike how much vision it takes away for the amount of protection it gives: you might as well be using kite shield in actual combat while dodging arrows. There is already a mechanic in place to break turtling (and it’s quite fast too) so I don’t see the point of being all that precise while blocking. It’s not like you’re parrying where you do need to be accurate what to block.



  • @Jstorm:

    @Dr:

    I think the combination of no riposte + shield down time is a bit much.

    Considering all the disadvantages you get from having a shield, being able to block arrows doesn’t seem like all that much.

    Lower the shield down time and/or the stamina drain IMO. That makes shields either good for melee or good for support.

    I think they should just have larger blocking volume like I said earlier, to make up for allll the downsides.

    I actually agree.

    However that involves changing the hardcoded hitbox that is currently the same for all weapons and classes which I just think isn’t going to happen. Therefore I’m suggesting changes that are realistic for TB to implement.



  • No one uses shields anymore because they are useless for absoluely everything besides blocking projectiles.



  • @-Thylacine-:

    No one uses shields anymore because they are useless for absoluely everything besides blocking projectiles.

    shields = death.



  • What bothers me most is that people who parry don’t lose any stamine whereas shield users do lose a lot.

    Playing knight with (Heavy) Flail mostly and if you fight against more than 2 on your own you’re basically fucked.
    Just had several occasions where I fought 3 enemies and I probably would have made more damage if I hadn’t run out of stamina instantly because they all attacked me at the same time whereas I had to block.

    Of course it makes sense to have a stamina loss when blocking but imo it’s just way too drastic. It’s not like I’m a wimp who can’t take more than 3 hits to a shield before sitting down for a break and maybe a cup o’ tea.

    Also, Buckler is not a good shield for the Knight. It’s too small and pretty much useless. It’s more of a parry-tool than a block-tool since you need to aim for your strike or get hit - all of that while losing stamina you wouldn’t lose if you played without shield.
    Buckler is more of a roundshield, fitting for MAA and Archers but too small for a massive knight in full armour.
    At least give him a shield like Boromir had. A shield that actually covers more than the arm and maybe the shoulder plate. :P

    As of other shields: Hitboxes are quite fine. It’s not the shield’s fault, it’s some weapon’s fault, like the Dane Axe.
    Had several occasions where the very TIP of the weapon hit the upper part of my Towershield but apparently extended for 5 inches and bended over to hit me in the face.
    If you want to get past a shield without aim, use the Dane Axe overhead. :x

    Or the Flail, even though it’s hard to get someone behind a Towershield. It’s quite ironic that a weapon DESIGNED to surpass shields has a harder job than a Dane Axe. :P

    Decrease the stamina drain and I’m fine. Oh and please give Flail another partner. I’m tired of the “Buckler” roundshield.


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