Longsword: pubs vs duels



  • So, the longsword nerfs. Still a good duel weapon, a great one even, but is trash in pubs with multiple opponents compared to the overbuffed messer and even SoW now.

    How do we make the longsword as good as it used to be/viable for pubs without Slygoat believing it’s OP for duels? You’re also way better off using it 1h now instead of 2h. Sure, you’ll wreck face in typical pubs with it, but you could do it so much better with the messer or even the maul. The value of the longsword in pubs now is so low now compared to these other weapons. The messer is the new longsword/SoW, and it’s boring. I loved the old messer, don’t get me wrong, but really we should brain storm on making all 3 equal in terms of pub value vs duel value.



  • @SOC:

    So, the longsword nerfs. Still a good duel weapon, a great one even, but is trash in pubs with multiple opponents compared to the overbuffed messer and even SoW now.

    How do we make the longsword as good as it used to be/viable for pubs without Slygoat believing it’s OP for duels? You’re also way better off using it 1h now instead of 2h. Sure, you’ll wreck face in typical pubs with it, but you could do it so much better with the messer or even the maul. The value of the longsword in pubs now is so low now compared to these other weapons. The messer is the new longsword/SoW, and it’s boring. I loved the old messer, don’t get me wrong, but really we should brain storm on making all 3 equal in terms of pub value vs duel value.

    Specialize them between attack types.

    Messer best slash, average overhead, worst stab
    Longsword best overhead, average stab, worst slash
    SoW best stab, average slash, worst overhead

    The current problem is that the SoW and the Longsword were very similar pre patch and both were great weapons while the Messer fell behind in terms of use and versatility. Now with new patch, the Messer (I believe) has taken the spotlight and the nerfed Longsword/SoW are still too similar as well as falling behind the Messer.

    No idea how you will bridge the gap between pub and duel though, I feel the SoW/Longsword would remain stronger than Messer just because I feel that stab/overheads are more versatile than slashes.



  • Shouldn’t longsword have average overhead, average stab, average slash, while the SoW has best stab, bad overhead, average slash and messer has best slash, best overhead, bad stab?

    I think that would make all 3 more balanced and more like pre-patch and force SoW to be less overheads and more slashes on top of its stabs, defaulting its damage output to a more reasonable level while keeping the longsword as the most balanced and versatile knight weapon/weapon in the game, comparable to vanguard’s greatsword.

    The longsword’s strengths should be its versatility in everything. While it has this in duels, it severely lacks to the messer in pubs. Personally, I found the messer’s only fault pre-patch was its really bad recovery. Since they gave recovery parry in this patch, its buffs weren’t needed. I guess maybe a tiny buff if they left the longsword and SoW alone.



  • It would appear I muddled them up. Yeah you’re correct about best attacks there.

    keeping the longsword as the most balanced and versatile knight weapon/weapon in the game, comparable to vanguard’s greatsword.

    Especially this.

    MaA has the Broadsword

    Vanguard has the Greatsword

    Knight has the Longsword

    Archer can fuck off.



  • keeping the longsword as the most balanced and versatile knight weapon/weapon in the game, comparable to vanguard’s greatsword.

    Yeah, I think the main problem is that they buffed the maul(the best knight counter whilst being terrible against other classes) and then nerfed the knight’s swords. I think the sword nerfs would’ve been fine if they hadn’t buffed the maul, honestly. They basically nerfed the class, then buffed the class’s counter. I think either the LS or SoW should return to the way they were pre-patch and keep the maul buffs(I prefer this one) or keep the LS and SoW nerfs but revert the maul back to how it was pre-patch.



  • From the weapon spreadsheet found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … Znc#gid=77

    Based off of base ‘power’ from best to worst:
    Slash: Messer, Longsword, SoW
    OH: Messer, Longsword, SoW
    Stab: SoW, Longsword, Messer

    Some things to note:
    With OH->stab combo, Messer does the most damage, even though it has the weakest stab; SoW and Longsword do same damage in this case.
    Stabs are more valuable[damage] against the heavier classes, while slash/OH is more valuable against the archer class.
    In 2 swing combos in which a stab is used[only] once, SoW and Longsword perform about equally.

    With this said, what are the cases people know of where one weapon takes an additional hit to kill a target? In what cases could a SoW/Longsword land an attack due to its speed, that a Longsword/Messer wouldn’t be able to? And, how do their drags compare?



  • Problem with the Longsword in pub TO’s etc is that the slash is possibly one of the easiest in the game to parry. I don’t think there’s anything that can be done to solve/improve that issue.



  • @dpunk:

    From the weapon spreadsheet found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … Znc#gid=77

    Based off of base ‘power’ from best to worst:
    Slash: Messer, Longsword, SoW
    OH: Messer, Longsword, SoW
    Stab: SoW, Longsword, Messer

    Some things to note:
    With OH->stab combo, Messer does the most damage, even though it has the weakest stab; SoW and Longsword do same damage in this case.
    Stabs are more valuable[damage] against the heavier classes, while slash/OH is more valuable against the archer class.
    In 2 swing combos in which a stab is used[only] once, SoW and Longsword perform about equally.

    With this said, what are the cases people know of where one weapon takes an additional hit to kill a target? In what cases could a SoW/Longsword land an attack due to its speed, that a Longsword/Messer wouldn’t be able to? And, how do their drags compare?

    I’m not sure that spreadsheet is correct.

    Because of OH->stab combo with the messer currently, it simply out performs the other two swords by a long shot, and also has the best slash on top of it. It’s also got great speed. It lacks in range, but you can still perform better with the messer than the other two in pretty much every situation for pubs. I would argue messer is better than longsword/SoW for duels at the moment as well, but that can be total preference.

    Longsword seems to take 4 hits to kill knights with overheads and stabs to the torso, it will only take 3 if you manage to land a head hit. I might be wrong on that, but that’s how it feels currently. Left clicks with it are trash against knights. Longsword 2 stabs to torso vanguard will not kill him, but leave him low enough for a hard kick to finish off. Of course, that’s not good enough for pubs at all, but is okay for duels. The longsword has incredible drags, but so does the messer: the messer was known pre-patch for being an amazing mouse drag weapon like the zweihander. The longsword can 2 shot vanguards with a left click and stab combo if they both hit the head.

    Fortunately, the longsword seems to out perform the SoW when it comes to 1h. That, too, might be personal preference to me but I can do pretty well with the longsword 1h now. Granted, it’s just a worse broad sword, but the problem is longsword needs buffs, not broad sword needs nerfs. Still, the messer is best at the 1h because it can 3 shot any class consistently, 2 shot MaAs, and I’m almost positive it can oneshot archers with a slash to the head now, I seem to do it very consistently to full health archers. I like where the longsword is at 1h, but I think it could use slightly faster combo speeds. Not sure what to do with SoW, and messer is really good at 1h (I liked it more 1h pre-patch than 2h because it dropped the recovery from .9 to .5).



  • 1h HTK on the longsword is awful compared to many other weapons.

    Its like a swimming pool noodle.



  • @giantyak:

    1h HTK on the longsword is awful compared to many other weapons.

    Its like a swimming pool noodle.

    3-4 hits to kill knight, 2-3 hits to kill vanguard, 2 to kill MaAs and archers. It’s pretty average, pretty much the same HTK as 2h longsword with this patch except you get better recovery, an optional shield, and a fantastic stab.



  • Yeah it is a good weapon.
    But annoying how it seems to take that extra 1 or 2 hits more to kill.
    That said it can still be used to excellent effect in duels. Though mainly because a knight is wielding it :) Kite shield +hit trading = hard to fail



  • @giantyak:

    Yeah it is a good weapon.
    But annoying how it seems to take that extra 1 or 2 hits more to kill.
    That said it can still be used to excellent effect in duels. Though mainly because a knight is wielding it :) Kite shield +hit trading = hard to fail

    A knight who hit trades with the longsword 1h is actually “failling…” Because most weapons will definitely beat you if you hit trade them too much with a longsword either 1h or 2h.

    I always felt like 1h bastard sword and shield plays a lot like how people want shield and spear setup to play like.



  • I used to main longsword and despise the messer, but post-patch I have to main messer since the longsword is simply too shit at the moment, and this is especially true in duels. The difference between 2-3 hits for messer on a knight vs. 3-4 for longsword is simply too much. It’s even worse against vanguards when you lose the range/movement speed/stamina game as well. The stamina seems a bit more manageable on the messer, probably because of that extra hit needed which requires stamina to execute as well. This is very sad because the messer is not a fun weapon to use, it handles like a brick and the fighting style is extremely limited. Most of the time I simply resort to spamming extremely delayed overheads and comboing into reverse overheads, with an odd accelerated slash here and there.

    The worst of it all is if you pick longsword you can still get a glimpse of its former glory when you manage the 3 HTK on knights and 2 HTK on vanguards, and it just makes me very sad.



  • @SOC:

    @giantyak:

    Yeah it is a good weapon.
    But annoying how it seems to take that extra 1 or 2 hits more to kill.
    That said it can still be used to excellent effect in duels. Though mainly because a knight is wielding it :) Kite shield +hit trading = hard to fail

    A knight who hit trades with the longsword 1h is actually “failling…” Because most weapons will definitely beat you if you hit trade them too much with a longsword either 1h or 2h.

    I always felt like 1h bastard sword and shield plays a lot like how people want shield and spear setup to play like.

    I’m not implying that you have to hit trade to make it work, but the option is there if you need/want it. Sometimes its quicker to kill with a hit trade and that can be important.



  • @SOC:

    How do we make the longsword as good as it used to be/viable for pubs without Slygoat believing it’s OP for duels? You’re also way better off using it 1h now instead of 2h.

    Slygoat doesn’t understand such an easy thing and that’s pretty annoying indeed. They have the resistance, the stamina, the power, … And now, the speed with 1H blades. That’s pathetic.

    An way to fix many issues with Knights would be to reduce their speed… But not the attack one (balanced). The running speed. They should run with ALL weapons like they run with the flails…



  • @giantyak:

    I’m not implying that you have to hit trade to make it work, but the option is there if you need/want it. Sometimes its quicker to kill with a hit trade and that can be important.

    Oh, you probably mean like hit trading with MaAs with broadsword, then with that I say yeah you’re absolutely correct. I just think hit trade and the first things that come to mind are maul, grand mace, pole axe, zweihander, greatsword and pole hammer haha.

    If the longsword and SoW got reverted but vanguards got a pierce resist buff to make it harder to two shot them as consistently as before, would that make things much better?



  • I feel as though SoW and Longsword should get a slight range buff if all the current stats are going to be kept.

    Perhaps speed up the slash on them as well slightly, sort of what the claymore got.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    I feel as though SoW and Longsword should get a slight range buff if all the current stats are going to be kept.

    Perhaps speed up the slash on them as well slightly, sort of what the claymore got.

    this



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    I feel as though SoW and Longsword should get a slight range buff if all the current stats are going to be kept.

    Perhaps speed up the slash on them as well slightly, sort of what the claymore got.

    Longsword slash isn’t meant to be all that good though. I think it’d be better to keep the swing as it is, as in easy to block, but increase its damage so that when you do actually make a hit it actually does some damage……



  • @giantyak:

    Longsword slash isn’t meant to be all that good though.

    That’s the point. Same deal with the claymore.


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