Stamina before "The Patch"?



  • I’m a new player to Chivalry, and truth be told only began playing during the Steam summer sale. In the 22 hours I’ve clocked so far, I’ve learnt quite a lot of things and are doing better than most around my rank (18) that I normally see in servers,

    I currently use the MAA, and usually roll out with just the norse sword, and have been joining duel servers to further improve my skill. Not to mention I’ve been researching and trying to piece together the most viable method of fighting that suits me.

    But I digress.

    I realized while dueling a Vanguard that whenever I get charged or attacked, and I attempt to block, I’m only able to do so 2-3 times before I don’t have enough stamina even to dash, which led me to dying almost every time I fought them because all I could do at that point is exchange hits, or just block again. Which would just lead me to dying. Though, I could have just dashed instead of blocking, as optimal, but the people I duel are normally rank 40 and above, so they’d just mousedrag the strike and get me anyway.

    So my question is this,
    was stamina loss this significant before? The general consensus towards it seems to be that the stamina gain got reduced and the stamina uptake for dodges and blocks got increased, as well as vanguard attacks and charges doing more knock back. (another reason why I couldn’t do much, I had to keep him very close to do much, but I nearly always end up dying with him on very low hp because I run out of stamina. And I don’t know how else I’d counter an experience vanguard player.)

    what was it like before the patch?



  • Before the patch you lost far less stamina when blocking an attack. In addition, there was no “panic parry” feature (parrying while still recovering from your swing), which itself costs like 25 stamina or something to execute. In it’s place you could combo then feint and parry, which was oddly cheaper. I believe you now regenerate stamina faster than pre-patch, but that doesn’t do you much good in the middle of a fight.

    MAA dodge got tweaked around a bit last patch. I think before it would have been easier to use your dodge to get out of the way and then get back in (dodge moved faster, had less cooldown time) to place a strike against your opponent or at least put pressure on him. On the other hand, VGs could be using combo-feints to time their followup attacks against you better.

    No matter what, you’re going to have a hard time killing an experienced player whether he is a vanguard or not. These guys might have played about 500 hours more than you. :P



  • The way to kill a man at arms with a two hander is to either…

    1: Bait him in and hit him with your combo after you missed your first swing. The first missed swing brings the MAA closer.

    2. Make him miss and force Him to panic parry. This costs the MAA a lot of stamina.

    If you are running outta stamina people are doing the second option to you.

    My advice don’t swing unless you know you are gonna make contact. Vanguards have a range advantage. And have a big knock back. Get in close and stay in close. Never back away from a vanguard or knight for that matter when you are a man at arms. As doing that just gives him back is range advantage.

    A missed swing costs like 5-10 stamina for MAA weapons. And a panic parry costs 25 stamina while. A normal parry costs about 5-10 usually as well (provided you don’t have a dagger and your opponent doesn’t have a maul, then its like 50). So a modded swing followed by a panic parry can costs you one third of your stamina. And dodges cost a lot too.

    As soon as you miss a swing a good vanguard would have started to swing on your windup As he knows you are outta range. This will force you to do a panic parry. This feature used to not be in the game before. You would o just taken a hit before patch.

    As a man at arms never back peddle.

    As I remember normal stamina hits for parries and stuff remained the same. But the panic parry is the real cause

    And you can tire yourself out with about 4 dodges as well.

    Stamina changes are in fact as follows.

    Attacks cannot be feinted in the last 200 ms of windup (attack grunt will play at the start of this window).
    Unable to parry for .4 seconds after a combo feint.
    Combo feint stamina cost from 15 to 20.
    Parries can now be combod into from an attack release the same way as attacks are combod, for 10 stamina.
    Now able to parry in attack recovery - costs 25 stamina and does not allow counterattacks.

    So two new features there and one feature that no one really uses anymore. Because of the 0.4 second delay.

    Other than that stamina has pretty much stayed the same.



  • Before the patch running out of stamina was barely punished (only if your enemy used a very quick weapon) as the stun duration when parrying out of stamina was too short. This resulted in Maul attacks always getting blocked by tiny daggers but daggers being able to stun a Maul user long enough to deliver a free strike. But in most cases getting some stamina back when you ran out and parried did outweight the stun by far. You could even dodge out of it. As result the predominant playstyle was spamming feints, dodges and combos not even bothering with stamina.

    On the other side there was no panic parry - you simply couldn’t parry during release. Now a lot of people panic parry all the time not even realizing that it drains their stamina like nothing else. Yes - you were able to feint from combo windup and then parry (Torn Banner decided to remove this for no reason) at a good stamina cost - but as I already wrote running out of stamina wasn’t punished properly.

    You also got increased stamina regeneration by crouching but standard stamina regeneration was a little slower. The result was people sitting all over the place looking like they are taking a shit. Even when dueling somebody it wasn’t uncommeon for some to step back and sit down. I am glad they removed it - it just looked sooo stupid.

    In general I like the new stamina system. When you run out of stamina you will be punished for it and the punishment finally outweights the stamina you regain when you get stunned. For new players who panic parry a lot without even realizing it does add some frustration as they run out of stamina so fast - but panic parry should cost a lot as you cancel your recovery time.

    The worst thing that happened was that shields are complete crap right now. But thats a shield problem - they just need far too much stamina for blocking and don’t give you any advantage in melee (if you hold them up they drain even more stamina and your enemy is able to kick to get you stunned). And if you feel mindless: Just strike the shield and parry the shield users attacks (don’t worry shield users can’t even riposte). He will run out of stamina faster. He will get stunned. And you will get your free hit. Only the last thing is new but it shows how bad shields are.



  • @lemonater47:

    The way to kill a man at arms with a two hander is to either…

    1: Bait him in and hit him with your combo after you missed your first swing. The first missed swing brings the MAA closer.

    2. Make him miss and force Him to panic parry. This costs the MAA a lot of stamina.

    If you are running outta stamina people are doing the second option to you.

    My advice don’t swing unless you know you are gonna make contact. Vanguards have a range advantage. And have a big knock back. Get in close and stay in close. Never back away from a vanguard or knight for that matter when you are a man at arms. As doing that just gives him back is range advantage.

    A missed swing costs like 5-10 stamina for MAA weapons. And a panic parry costs 25 stamina while. A normal parry costs about 5-10 usually as well (provided you don’t have a dagger and your opponent doesn’t have a maul, then its like 50). So a modded swing followed by a panic parry can costs you one third of your stamina. And dodges cost a lot too.

    As soon as you miss a swing a good vanguard would have started to swing on your windup As he knows you are outta range. This will force you to do a panic parry. This feature used to not be in the game before. You would o just taken a hit before patch.

    As a man at arms never back peddle.

    As I remember normal stamina hits for parries and stuff remained the same. But the panic parry is the real cause

    And you can tire yourself out with about 4 dodges as well.

    Stamina changes are in fact as follows.

    Attacks cannot be feinted in the last 200 ms of windup (attack grunt will play at the start of this window).
    Unable to parry for .4 seconds after a combo feint.
    Combo feint stamina cost from 15 to 20.
    Parries can now be combod into from an attack release the same way as attacks are combod, for 10 stamina.
    Now able to parry in attack recovery - costs 25 stamina and does not allow counterattacks.

    So two new features there and one feature that no one really uses anymore. Because of the 0.4 second delay.

    Other than that stamina has pretty much stayed the same.

    Yeah, about that. I knew about those costs and so I refrained from attacking him much unless I managed to catch them off guard and successively beat down on them at extremely close range. I’ve learnt not to swing wildly so that also wasn’t the problem. I’d miss a swing here and there to lure him to attack me, but that’d be about it.

    As for panic parrying I wouldn’t parry but rather try side-step or maneuver out of the way, and I always waited for him to attack before I parried instead of cancelling or panick parrying. I’d also try side dash instead of dashing back because earlier on I learnt the hard way that if I did, the reach would just slice me up. So I learnt to turn my model and move so I’d be less likely to be hit.

    my real problem is that I just didn’t have enough stamina to keep going, and I’d mostly end up exhausted and completely open for attacks, even though I kept my stamina usage to the bare minimum I could manage while still trying to damage him.



  • @Mortuary:

    my real problem is that I just didn’t have enough stamina to keep going, and I’d mostly end up exhausted and completely open for attacks, even though I kept my stamina usage to the bare minimum I could manage while still trying to damage him.

    Do you use very short weapons or shields? In this case the usual attack-parry-attack trade doesn’t favor you as you will run out of stamina much quicker.
    Do you use a lot of feints/kicks/combo/jump attacks? If you do this a lot without getting a hit in you lose stamina at a higher rate than your enemy. Not saying these things are bad but using them means you have to decide the fight before it comes down to stamina management.
    Do you get pushed into defensive very often? If your enemy makes you parry his attacks very often while having little to parry himself your stamina will vanish while his will not (parried strikes cost no stamina).
    Do you combine dodging and parrying in defense? In case his attack connects you just dodged for nothing but burning stamina.
    Do you use dodge for attacking? As dodge prevents you from attacking the stamina cost isn’t worth it. Simply running in and attacking does almost the same and costs less. Dodge attacks only work if they also make your enemy miss or panic.
    Do you fight recklessly? Make sure to use opportunities to regenerate some stamina. Sprinting all the time will prevent this as does going hyper aggressive. The latter does also prevent your enemy from regaining stamina but if he already has the advantage you will be the one running short first. Try to disengage if possible, circle around your opponent (not sprinting!), regenerate some stamina and in the best case make him miss some strikes while doing so.



  • See If you can get some ducks going. Against a skilled player you gotta duck at the last possible millisecond otherwise they will look down. But if you get it right they miss a swing. And while you are ducking you can windup and hit him when you pop up again.

    To duck you have to crouch and lookdown. LMBs and spear stabs are easy to duck. Normal stabs get a bit harder and I wouldn’t try ducking an overhead.

    Its at no stamina cost and if you’re close you can easily get a hit on him. Always follow a succesful hit with a combo and keep going untill you are parried.

    In duels espicially oceanic duels a lot of players jump and stab. Those you have to look out for.

    Also as a man at arms your own stabs are to the side of you opponent. If you stab the. Drag your stab I. You can get around their parry sometimes. Works with two handers as week put you have to be pointing away.

    Try not to dodge as much. As too many dodges can really wear you down. Pacing around your opponent wil regain your stamina, but also your enemies. When I run out of stamina in a duel I get even more aggressive. As they are usually on low stamina too. So you can at least stun them and finish them off.

    Use footwork lots. Rely on footwork more than dodge.



  • Do you get pushed into defensive very often? If your enemy makes you parry his attacks very often while having little to parry himself your stamina will vanish while his will not (parried strikes cost no stamina).
    Do you combine dodging and parrying in defense? In case his attack connects you just dodged for nothing but burning stamina.

    Yeah… These were the main things I was getting forced to do, everything else I was doing okay with. And whenever I tried to circle, and back off a bit, he’d come in and attack me with his superior reach and I wouldn’t be able to recover stamina,

    my using the norse sword also factors in as I was mostly fighting spear/brandistock VGs.



  • Honestly, as a level 46 approaching 700 hours I believe that MaA is the master race. I’m not very good with them, and I’m starting to resign myself to the fact that I can’t beat them without being them. I think I’m personally going to start training some MaA more often now.

    I’m not sure if this is your real problem or not, but spear vanguard charges (spear, fork, brandi, halberd, etc.) are probably the most easy to deal with. If you see a player sprinting around to charge up for his spear VG charge be ready to rush him. As soon as he approaches and begins his charge rush him to the left or right, he can’t really adjust much mid charge. The spear charge doesn’t hit as large of an area as the sword charge, and is quite easy to go right past. Now you’re behind him and he’s in recovery. Start comboing.

    I don’t see a lot of really good players really messing with the vanguard charges in duel mode. Occasionally a guy will do it, but more often that not it’s incredibly risky if your opponent anticipates it. While charging past a sword charge doesn’t always work it can be done. As you get better at dealing with it you begin to judge whether or not you are safe just running past them.



  • @Evil:

    On the other side there was no panic parry - you simply couldn’t parry during release. Now a lot of people panic parry all the time not even realizing that it drains their stamina like nothing else. Yes - you were able to feint from combo windup and then parry (Torn Banner decided to remove this for no reason) at a good stamina cost - but as I already wrote running out of stamina wasn’t punished properly.

    Yeah that’s interesting ! I play from the beginning of the game, but never really “train” or talk with other players about the gameplay, so i don’t really progress… ( forever alone )
    I often read combo feint to parry ( cftp ), i don’t see what it is… but personaly, i can start to hit, then feint and parry, today as well as before…
    About the panic parry, i didn’t really know about that, so what is it ? start a hit, then… parry ? with a feint ? I don’t get it.
    How do the well trained players avoid to do panic parry ? Because i’m quite sure i do a lot of that :/



  • The biggest change to stamina drain from before the patch, maximum stamina loss from a parry was 35 - now it’s 25.

    Additionally, the way parry stamina absorption is calculated used to be based on weapon damage. This was VERY difficult to balance because of how much damage varies, so there were weapons that always had minimum stamina drain and weapons that almost always had maximum stamina drain.

    Now things are a lot more even across the board; generally speaking you’ll lose about 10-15 stamina for parrying an attack from a weapon the same relative weight as your own, and gradually higher or lower stamina from parrying heavier or lighter weapons.

    So it’s hard to say if stamina drain is higher or lower than it was, since it depends entirely on what you play and what you play against. One-handed weapons against weapons that do 80+ damage generally lose less stamina, two-handed weapons against weapons that do 80+ damage generally lose more. Very light weapons, such as shortsword, daggers, hatchet, etc. lose significantly less stamina than they used to; before you lost over 30 stamina from parrying anything more damaging than a Messer Sword with a lighter weapon like a Mace, which is enough stamina loss for you to be chain staggered (after being staggered you gain 30 stamina in order to prevent this), basically ensuring your death if you were low on stamina.

    So in reality there are situations where you lose less stamina and are punished less for running out of stamina than pre-patch; the majority of players who complain about the stamina changes tended to use two-handed weapons that previously were almost impossible to stamina drain because they would take minimum stamina loss from anything lighter than a maul or zweihander overhead, which you could regenerate in less than a second.

    The only other meaningful change to stamina was an increase to normal stamina regeneration to make up for losing bonus stamina regeneration while crouched, which is a mechanic very few people even knew about. Next patch we’re increasing stamina absorption for most weapons by 1-4 depending on the weapon, to give one or two extra blocks before running out of stamina against weapons of similar weight.

    Also, something to keep in mind is the new system is a little more balanced around the offensive and defensive properties of each weapon. Balanced weapons like swords are better at parrying but don’t drain as much stamina, while weapons with uneven weight distributions like maces and axes are worse at parrying but drain more stamina. It makes it a little more worthwhile to take a shield if you’re using a mace compared to a one handed sword.

    Shields still use their previous stamina drain implementation, nothing was changed about them last patch; each shield has an absorption value (4 for buckler up to 6 for tower), and the stamina loss is the damage of the attack divided by the absorption value, with a minimum of 7 and a maximum of 35 (though the maximum never really comes into play, since the highest damage attack in the game only drains 33 stamina from a buckler).

    Sprint attacks are the exception to both systems; they always drain 35 stamina when blocked or parried.

    Re: Panic and combo parry;

    Panic parry is when you cancel your attack’s recovery to parry, and costs a hefty chunk of stamina. You do this simply by parrying while you’re still in recovery (the animation that plays after an attack during which you can’t throw another attack).

    Combo parry is when you bypass your recovery completely by comboing directly into a parry. You do this the same way you’d combo an attack - while you’re swinging your weapon, queue up a parry.

    Feint to parry is when you cancel an attack that is still in wind up (the stage before it starts swinging) and then parry. This costs as much as a normal feint.

    Feinting a combo will force a short recovery period during which you cannot attack or parry, so that you can’t instantly cancel out of a combo to parry an incoming attack. You can still cancel your combo to bypass most of your recovery if you aren’t sure if it’s safe to combo, you just can’t make the split second decision to parry in the middle of a combo - because that eliminated all risk from combo attacks and just made the game spammy.

    I think that’s everything there is to know about stamina and blocking.



  • Thanks for the write-up Sly. I’m sure there were even veteran players that didn’t fully grasp what once was and what is now the stamina system.



  • @lemonater47:

    The way to kill a man at arms with a two hander is to either…

    1: Bait him in and hit him with your combo after you missed your first swing. The first missed swing brings the MAA closer.

    2. Make him miss and force Him to panic parry. This costs the MAA a lot of stamina.

    damn, and all this time i didn’t know there were only 2 ways to beat an maa…



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    @lemonater47:

    The way to kill a man at arms with a two hander is to either…

    1: Bait him in and hit him with your combo after you missed your first swing. The first missed swing brings the MAA closer.

    2. Make him miss and force Him to panic parry. This costs the MAA a lot of stamina.

    damn, and all this time i didn’t know there were only 2 ways to beat an maa…

    If you know of any more ways please add to the discussion.



  • 1: Bait him in and hit him with your combo after you missed your first swing. The first missed swing brings the MAA closer.

    2. Make him miss and force Him to panic parry. This costs the MAA a lot of stamina.

    3.) Feint, draw dodge and keep sprinting forward to get your attack in.

    4.) Keep running straight at him and don’t stop forcing either a dodge, panic parry, or an attack… be ready for any of these 3 to happen. If dodges sprint follow and attack, or feint then attack for extra measures. If he parries, throw strike during the parry (he can no longer dodge out of this one). If he attacks, parry, wait for the possible dodge and either attack or feint attack because of possibility of dodge (whew this was a long one)

    5.) Drag overheads or slashes with a longer 2 handed weapon so that if they dodge or parry your hit still connects, sprint the whole way through.

    6.) catch them with very fast counter lookdown overheads or counter pokes on their strikes.

    7.) if they come in for the poke attacks (which they do this as a well known opener now) matrix the poke and counter while matrixing.

    8.) scorpion attacks (leaning back while facing away from them and doing overheads)

    9.) hit trading ftw

    10.) grab a maul and smack them in the head with it, once

    11.) grab a zwie and smack them in the head with it, once

    12.) short spear them in the face, or any javelin, once.

    13.) for really dodgy maa’s, i recommend just running at them, any time you get close they’ll most likely dodge to the sides or backward, you can either follow them, or wait for their strike after the dodge. If you can manage parrying 2-4 attacks, they’ll run out of stamina and you kill them.

    well, i added 11 more for now… could probably think of more but i’ll just leave that here. This is also against better maa’s that use these tactics, keep in mind you might just run into a noob and not have to do any of this, just swing and hit.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Re: Panic and combo parry;

    Panic parry is when you cancel your attack’s recovery to parry, and costs a hefty chunk of stamina. You do this simply by parrying while you’re still in recovery (the animation that plays after an attack during which you can’t throw another attack).

    Combo parry is when you bypass your recovery completely by comboing directly into a parry. You do this the same way you’d combo an attack - while you’re swinging your weapon, queue up a parry.

    Feint to parry is when you cancel an attack that is still in wind up (the stage before it starts swinging) and then parry. This costs as much as a normal feint.

    Feinting a combo will force a short recovery period during which you cannot attack or parry, so that you can’t instantly cancel out of a combo to parry an incoming attack. You can still cancel your combo to bypass most of your recovery if you aren’t sure if it’s safe to combo, you just can’t make the split second decision to parry in the middle of a combo - because that eliminated all risk from combo attacks and just made the game spammy.

    I think that’s everything there is to know about stamina and blocking.

    Thx Mr Goat this is much more clear in my mind now ! :)



  • @Mortuary:

    I’m a new player to Chivalry, and truth be told only began playing during the Steam summer sale. In the 22 hours I’ve clocked so far, I’ve learnt quite a lot of things and are doing better than most around my rank (18) that I normally see in servers,

    I currently use the MAA, and usually roll out with just the norse sword, and have been joining duel servers to further improve my skill. Not to mention I’ve been researching and trying to piece together the most viable method of fighting that suits me.

    But I digress.

    I realized while dueling a Vanguard that whenever I get charged or attacked, and I attempt to block, I’m only able to do so 2-3 times before I don’t have enough stamina even to dash, which led me to dying almost every time I fought them because all I could do at that point is exchange hits, or just block again. Which would just lead me to dying. Though, I could have just dashed instead of blocking, as optimal, but the people I duel are normally rank 40 and above, so they’d just mousedrag the strike and get me anyway.

    So my question is this,
    was stamina loss this significant before? The general consensus towards it seems to be that the stamina gain got reduced and the stamina uptake for dodges and blocks got increased, as well as vanguard attacks and charges doing more knock back. (another reason why I couldn’t do much, I had to keep him very close to do much, but I nearly always end up dying with him on very low hp because I run out of stamina. And I don’t know how else I’d counter an experience vanguard player.)

    what was it like before the patch?

    You’re parrying a vangurad’s large weapon. You should lose stamina quickly.



  • because that eliminated all risk from combo attacks and just made the game spammy.

    It’s not spam if every blow lands accurately ;)



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    1: Bait him in and hit him with your combo after you missed your first swing. The first missed swing brings the MAA closer.

    2. Make him miss and force Him to panic parry. This costs the MAA a lot of stamina.

    3.) Feint, draw dodge and keep sprinting forward to get your attack in.

    4.) Keep running straight at him and don’t stop forcing either a dodge, panic parry, or an attack… be ready for any of these 3 to happen. If dodges sprint follow and attack, or feint then attack for extra measures. If he parries, throw strike during the parry (he can no longer dodge out of this one). If he attacks, parry, wait for the possible dodge and either attack or feint attack because of possibility of dodge (whew this was a long one)

    5.) Drag overheads or slashes with a longer 2 handed weapon so that if they dodge or parry your hit still connects, sprint the whole way through.

    6.) catch them with very fast counter lookdown overheads or counter pokes on their strikes.

    7.) if they come in for the poke attacks (which they do this as a well known opener now) matrix the poke and counter while matrixing.

    8.) scorpion attacks (leaning back while facing away from them and doing overheads)

    9.) hit trading ftw

    10.) grab a maul and smack them in the head with it, once

    11.) grab a zwie and smack them in the head with it, once

    12.) short spear them in the face, or any javelin, once.

    13.) for really dodgy maa’s, i recommend just running at them, any time you get close they’ll most likely dodge to the sides or backward, you can either follow them, or wait for their strike after the dodge. If you can manage parrying 2-4 attacks, they’ll run out of stamina and you kill them.

    well, i added 11 more for now… could probably think of more but i’ll just leave that here. This is also against better maa’s that use these tactics, keep in mind you might just run into a noob and not have to do any of this, just swing and hit.

    Some aren’t with two handers and many are fighting styles that are part of my two ways. And some you can’t actually do. Like “grab a zwei” you can’t change weapons mid fight. Sure when you die but that means you died.

    Really 3, 4 and 13 are actual strategies. The rest aren’t.



  • how exactly are clayton’s 5,6,7,8 and 9 not considered strategies in your wise book of strategies, lord Tzu?


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