Arrow damage is RIDICULOUSLY exaggerated.



  • Arrows are simply far too deadly in this game, from a balance point of view, a fun point of view and also an authenticity point of view.
    I understand Chivalry Medieval Warfare isn’t set in the real world, and that the game is not a 1:1 simulator of real life, however I feel like the developers tried to put in a degree of authenticity in the game and purposely went out of their way to avoid any magical or fantasy elements, instead focusing on the real world albeit with an entirely Fäntelalter theme, that is to say, not set in the real world but set in a world which might reasonably exist.

    With this in mind, being able to kill a man wearing plate or mail with 2 arrows or less is simply ridiculous. Mail and the padding worn underneath was very good at protecting the wearer from arrows. It would stop the majority of arrows the majority of the time at quite close range. Plate would make a man nearly invulnerable to arrows, unless he was hit in the gaps, helmet slits and so on.
    The notion that bodkin tipped arrows shot by a powerful longbow were the armour piercing bullet top trump of the day is simply a myth. Contemporary armour was very good at stopping arrows from being deadly. That is not to say archers weren’t vital. Crecy and Agincourt were won by the archer, but not that many men were actually killed by the arrows themselves, it was instead the constant impact of arrows wearing men down before they reached sword distance, buffeting them with powerful punches, forcing them to bring their shields up, killing their horses and sapping them of energy. Being hit by 300 pounds of force over and over is going to have a considerable effect on your morale, fighting ability and health, even if the arrows don’t actually kill you.

    With that in mind, I find it extremely annoying how an archer is the deadliest class in the game, how it can bring down any player with a couple of nonchalant arrows. Previously (last patch) the archer used to be more of a support role. It would take a number of arrows to bring down a knight or a vanguard, so the role was mainly about wearing players down before they reached your own troops, harassing those engaged in melee and picking off any wounded soldiers. It was much more authentic and much more fun for everyone. However, now the role is that of a 1-2 hit sniper, and it’s simply annoying for the melee classes, and ridiculously easy for the archer class. Not to mention a complete immersion breaker.

    Nobody’s asking for a 1:1 simulator where knights are invulnerable pin cushions. It’s simply about lowering the greatly exaggerated arrow damage back to a point where it feels like something reasonable, and not a bow that shoots lightsaber tipped arrows.



  • The speed at which these arrows travel is really damn fast. In kilometres an hour a longbow can fire an arrow at 230KM/h. While a normal crossbow can fire at close to 500KM/h.

    And they are armour piercing,they have a lot of weight behind them and they are very aerodynamic.

    Chainmail was pretty hopeless against bodkin arrows. And the shear blunt force of the projectile can break bones.

    Plates could still be pierced. Crossbows did this all the time.

    There’s a difference between how archery was used in a real war and chivalry. Is that in real wars archers were used to fire massed volleys into masses of troops. In chiv they don’t do this. So to make archery viable they made them do more damage. Its pretty easy to dodge arrows though.

    The battle of Agincourt had men at arms in full plate armour marching up a big towards the enemy. They got absolutely murdered by the English and Welsh longbowmen. And this is 15th century armour. By the time they got to the English lines they were all tired, mostly wounded and shocked at the losses sustained. If they weren’t suffering any of this they were dead.

    Last patch they separated the arrows more to broadheads wouldn’t be as effective against knights and vanguards. Bodkins remain pretty much the same.

    Keep in mind the archers place on the scoreboard is at the bottom. Whenever I do well as an archer most of my kills are from melee. Archers are very good supporting units in melee and good decoys.



  • @Orkboy:

    With that in mind, I find it extremely annoying how an archer is the deadliest class in the game, how it can bring down any player with a couple of nonchalant arrows.

    Show me your video where you top the scoreboard with an archer…

    While I agree its annoying being hit by arrows, it is also your fault if you get hit by them because you were too lazy to take steps to avoid an archer.

    Sure there are some very good archers but they are few and far between. Vanguards and Knights are much easier to get higher kills.



  • With this in mind, being able to kill a man wearing plate or mail with 2 arrows or less is simply ridiculous.

    No its not



  • @lemonater47:

    Chainmail was pretty hopeless against bodkin arrows. And the shear blunt force of the projectile can break bones.

    Sorry this is completely untrue. You might have seen infotainment programs where they place a square bit of dubious looking mail on flat surface, allowing it to strech out, then shoot an arrow into it square on. Of course under those conditions mail will be pierced, but this is completely far removed from reality. When worn on a moving, dynamic body, mail tapers into the curves of the body, the links aren’t stretched and it provides a glancing surface. Furthermore, it is worn over a padded aketon which absorbs blunt trauma. There was a show recently by Mike Loades on H2 channel, called ‘Going Medieval’. He gets three men to shoot 170 pound warbows at a dummy wearing real mail with a gambeson at around 20 yards (from memory). They shoot numerous arrows and not a single one penetrates the armour, not even a little bit. The fact is, if mail was so useless it wouldn’t have been used.
    I’m actually paraphrasing this guy a lot, I recommend you watch this video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lahyhBeBsys

    @lemonater47:

    Plates could still be pierced. Crossbows did this all the time.

    All the time? See above. You might get a couple of inches of penetration under the right conditions, but the padding worn underneath the plate would render that penetration meaningless. Blunt trauma? Do you think the impact of an arrow is any worse than the impact of a sword’s blade, which by and large did nothing to plate or the man wearing it?

    @lemonater47:

    There’s a difference between how archery was used in a real war and chivalry. Is that in real wars archers were used to fire massed volleys into masses of troops. In chiv they don’t do this. So to make archery viable they made them do more damage. Its pretty easy to dodge arrows though.

    Another misconception. There are no manuscripts or paintings showing archers shooting in elevation or in volleys. Think about the amount of archers used at Agincourt, and the amount of arrows they would have gone through shooting this way. Arrows were expensive and labour intensive to make. Knowing that plate and mail is very good proof against arrows, it would be a fool’s errand to waste them all by shooting massed volleys with the hope of hitting maybe 5 or 10 guys with no armour or with open visors. Most historians think that most battlefield archery was done at close range, at around 30 yards or less, in a flat trajectory. Again I recommend watching ‘Going Medieval’, I’m pretty much regurgitating Mike Loades’ words here, but it’s a view that’s shared by many.

    @lemonater47:

    The battle of Agincourt had men at arms in full plate armour marching up a big towards the enemy. They got absolutely murdered by the English and Welsh longbowmen. And this is 15th century armour. By the time they got to the English lines they were all tired, mostly wounded and shocked at the losses sustained. If they weren’t suffering any of this they were dead.

    Again, it wasn’t the arrows themsleves that murdered so many men at Agincourt. It was a combination of the terrain forcing the French into a pressed, crowded march over thick muddy ground, with the threat of arrows forcing them to travel slowly on foot, with their visors down and their shields up. As one wave started to turn back they would be pushed by the wave behind them. Men got crushed, trampled to death, drowned in mud and fainted from exhaustion. You mention that by the time they got to English lines they were tired, wounded and demoralised, this is exactly the effect the arrows had. They didn’t actually kill many men, they just played a role in giving the English an advantage once the French got into fighting distance.



  • without headshot, only the Warbow can two-shot knights if it uses Bodkin arrows, that and Heavy and regular crossbow, but that seems quite realistic; and Javelins, which i’m not so sure about.

    also in this game the Vanguards, which clearly use full Chainmail armor, are relatively very vulnerable to Pierce damage. so the devs went with the idea that arrows and spears can easily penetrate chain mail, which is debatable and probably a false idea caused by testing with butted chainmail.

    but all weapons in Chivalry MW seem to be quite powerful, especially if you consider they do full damage on any contact, no matter what angle of contact, or how much to the edge of a swing.

    also, nothing can one-hit-kill Vanguards save, ironically, on headshots. (decorative great helm)



  • @Deadpan:

    without headshot, only the Warbow can two-shot knights if it uses Bodkin arrows, that and Heavy and regular crossbow, but that seems quite realistic; and Javelins, which i’m not so sure about.

    also in this game the Vanguards, which clearly use full Chainmail armor, are relatively very vulnerable to Pierce damage. so the devs went with the idea that arrows and spears can easily penetrate chain mail, which is debatable and probably a false idea caused by testing with butted chainmail.

    but all weapons in Chivalry MW seem to be quite powerful, especially if you consider they do full damage on any contact, no matter what angle of contact, or how much to the edge of a swing.

    also, nothing can one-hit-kill Vanguards save, ironically, on headshots. (decorative great helm)

    I’ll give you that if we go by these rules, sword edges etc wouldn’t do any damage to knights wearing plate and the game would get real boring. But I’m not talking about complete realism, and I’m certainly not talking about a complete arrow nerf, just a dial back into a sensible level. The previous patch wasn’t so bad, it felt like arrows were things to fear and evade, but if you did get hit by one whilst fighting someone else you weren’t left with 10% health. The thing is in most TO games of Chivalry most people aren’t at 100% health, most of the time. So most of the time you’re getting a one hit kill when using the warbow because you’re hitting someone who’s a little wounded from their latest engagement, or otherwise you leave them with a silly amount of health as if you just shot him with some sort of nuclear armour piercing arrow.

    To the guy requesting “evidence” that I can top the scoreboard with the archer class: 1. I did not claim I could do so. 2.If I were to provide this evidence, would my argument suddenly become valid in your eyes? Don’t answer that.

    Deadliest class doesn’t mean top scoring class. Melee classes are engaged most often and so get more kills over all. It is my opinion however, than when playing as an archer you can get more positive K:D ratio with less effort. But this thread isn’t about which class is the best, it’s about arrows being completely far removed from their real life counterparts, to a much greater degree than other elements/weapons in the game.

    To the guy bringing up the genius idea of using a shield when approaching archers: Most of the time you’re not hit when approaching an archer. It’s usually when you’re fighting in melee with another melee class. The previous patch provided that support role for the archer who was shooting an enemy who was engaged in melee with a friendly. He would wound him, flinch him or stagger him so the friendly could finish him off. Now it’s more likely for the archer to get the kill.



  • In real life plate is is arrow proof but also sword proof.



  • @Helgeran:

    In real life plate is is arrow proof but also sword proof.

    Exactly. So we can’t make it 100% realistic because the game would be boring, but we could at least match the amount of arrow proof in the game to the amount of sword proof in the game right? Arrows shouldn’t kill a knight faster or easier than a sword.



  • So basicly it would be ideal to lower the damage of bows and make crossbows reload 2x-3x longer for the balance of both weapon types. Gotta say i kind of like this idea - Yet it needs testing. Make archers the supporters not the main killers. It would make sense to do those changes as archers are also very skilled in close combat these days. (saber, shortsword etc.)

    Don’t forget the javelineers.



  • So what if it doesn’t kill you immediately?

    I doubt people would be too keen to get back up after they get nailed with a barbed 1/2’’ diameter meter-long piece of ash traveling at 200 feet per second.

    There’s still a huge compression wave being transmitted through the plate. All that energy has to go somewhere.



  • I think you’ve still got the tv trope arrow power embedded in your mind. It’s not that it won’t kill you immediately, it’s that it won’t do you any real harm, period. It might hurt a little, and knock some wind out of you but it’s not going to knock you on your back. Mike Loades has had a large mass of archers shoot at him whilst charging at them wearing full plate. He described the impacts as worrying, loud and disconcerting but not all that painful. These were blunt arrows, so may have been traveling slightly slower, but not by that much.

    In the previous patch being hit by an archer would mean a flinch, a stagger and a loss of health, putting you at a disadvantage if you were in melee with someone else. Right now it’s simply a death sentence, it leaves you with a sliver of health. In the previous patch archers would target you if you were wounded. Right now it doesn’t matter, a single headshot can blow up your head.

    I’d like to add that I played as an archer the most in the previous patch. I found the class very fun and I do archery in real life. Now, however, I’m put off whenever I see a head explode. It breaks the immersion and makes chivalry so arcadey.



  • I do archery as a hobby and let me tell you. I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of a proper longbow that fires at twice the speed of my bow.

    Its called game balance. No one in the game is actually wearing full play armour. The agathian king hit has plate shoulders, arms and legs. His shoulders are the thickest. He wears chainmail and a coat of plates on his body. That’s less than an inch thick total of metal protection. Arrows can break links.

    And about archer tactics. Archers have been used in mass groups since the ancient times and it was really the only effective way of using them. And there’s writings, painting and drawings all over the place. Historians have said this for 2000 years all the way down to the roman historians.

    Tell me how often do you hit someone as an archer in chivalry? 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 sound about right to you? Wouldn’t you want to be rewarded when you hit something.

    And saying we have TV trope arrow power embedded in our heads? Well your basing it off a TV program yourself. Would they really shoot a guy with enough force to kill someone. “Well shit he’s dead, seems that full plays didn’t work after all”. Yeah they would do that for television. :roll:

    Haven’t you heard of Crecy? Or Agincourt?

    You go in chainmail and I’ll shoot you with a Welsh longbow and we’ll see how it goes. You can go in full plate if you like. 15th century armour just like the French used in Agincourt. Where they got absolutely owned.

    Headsplosions are a glitch. Busting heads or chopping limbs are based in the damage type. They changed the damage type of bodkins. But that damage type busts heads. They couldn’t be bothered making a clone of it that doesn’t blow up heads.



  • lemonater47 it is quite clear to me that you only glanced over my post but didn’t really take it in. I don’t feel like repeating myself so I can only urge to you go the the first page of this thread and read the post I have addressed to you carefully.

    Regarding your comment about me basing my opinions on a TV program: I simply mentioned a very good documentary released recently by a historian and author, Mike Loades. I cited this program not because I’m basing my views on it, but because it is a good documentary which anyone can get hold of. It addresses many of these misconceptions and strives to be a very good way of getting information across without forgetting to be entertaining. Nothing particularly new is discovered in this program, it simply repeats views most historians agree with: Mail and plate protected against arrows. This particular program is an exception to the rule, as most “historical” documentaries on channels such as The Discovery Channel or The History Channel tend to simply spout misconceptions. I get the feeling many people on this forum watch programs such as Mail Call or Deadliest Warrior and then repeat the silly things they show as gospel. Of course, I wouldn’t recommend getting your education on medieval history from TV, but there are programs you should ignore and programs which are actually quite accurate.

    When I mentioned Mike Loades being shot at with arrows whilst wearing plate armour, they were indeed shooting powerful warbows. The fact that he was confident in doing this suggests that he was confident in his armour’s ability to protect him. Henry V charged into the enemy at the Battle of Shrewsbury under an arrow storm. He was surely buffeted and struck by many arrows which simply glanced or stuck superficially to his armour. He was only hit by an arrow in the face because he was young and rash and rode in with an open faced helmet. it didn’t kill him, instead lodging itself under his eye and stopping at the back of his skull, as it was likely deflected off someone else’s armour. He then snapped off the shaft and continued to fight.

    The fact is mail with a gambeson will stop an arrow. And plate will render you nearly invulnerable to them. That’s why people wore it.

    I already mentioned Crecy and Agincourt in my first post addressed to you. The amount of archers at Crecy was sufficient to put a million arrows in the air in the space of an hour. If arrows were so deadly and mail so useless, why wasn’t everyone dead in minutes? At Agincourt, few men were actually felled by arrows. Again, I can only urge you to read what I have already written.



  • Uh…

    I’m a competitive archer IRL (traditional, I shoot a #60 longbow and traditional ash arrows) and no, a gambeson and mail is quite simply not an ideal protection. No, I’m not hiding behind “TV tropes”. I’m basing my theories off of personal experience with the weapons being used.

    I’ve never personally shot a Welsh warbow, but I’ve seen a group of archers shooting them at a clout shoot. There’s simply no way in hell that a chain mail shirt and petticoat are going to stop those once they get going.

    And, if you had ever watched the rest of Mike Loade’s stuff, you’d see Weapons That Made Britain, where he fires a longbow at a steel breastplate. The arrow actually penetrated, and he wasn’t even using a full draw weight warbow. And, if you watch the ballistic gel he set up behind it, you’d see that you’d easily get a ruptured gut, stomach, spleen, diaphragm, etc. from the shockwave. It also shattered a lintel shield. Like, actually shattered the damn thing.

    Lemonater, what kind of bow do you shoot?

    Orkboy, get out and rent yourself a traditional longbow of about 60 pounds. After shooting it a while, you’ll come to appreciate that it is indeed a weapon, not a toy.

    EDIT: Yeah, when Mike Loads had BigBowBrum shoot at him for National Geographic, they were using rubber stoppers fired from a low draw weight bow.

    Double EDIT: I’ve also had experience making and testing chain mail.

    And mentioning Henry surviving after getting shot in the face is like saying it would be easy to survive a gunshot to the head because Simo Hayah did. It’s the exception, not the rule.



  • you mean this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc ?

    20 meters, at an exactly perpendicular hit, at a breastplate that is “steel, but not specially hardened steel”, as he describes the “munition quality”. it also penetrated about 2 inch, which is certainly enough to hurt, but…

    not the best case to say arrows can pierce plate armor. yes, it can, but certainly not easily.

    good enough, though, to justify non-immunity.



  • Tell me how often do you hit someone as an archer in chivalry? 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 sound about right to you? Wouldn’t you want to be rewarded when you hit something.

    You aren’t taking competitive archers into account.



  • @Deadpan:

    you mean this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc ?

    20 meters, at an exactly perpendicular hit, at a breastplate that is “steel, but not specially hardened steel”, as he describes the “munition quality”. it also penetrated about 2 inch, which is certainly enough to hurt, but…

    not the best case to say arrows can pierce plate armor. yes, it can, but certainly not easily.

    good enough, though, to justify non-immunity.

    Yeah, that’s what I meant. It’s not going to immediately kill you, but there’s a great potential that you could be put out of action. I’ve never broken a rib, but I’m not sure how you would function on a battlefield with a broken one.

    No, I’m seriously not sure. I have no idea what kind of pain that is.

    And I have no idea what the OP wants from this post… no one’s going to fundamentally change the archers this far in, I would think.

    You know what else is fantasy and totally unrealistic? I’ll tell you.

    Swinging through three plate-clad knights with a sword.

    In fact, it’s way more unrealistic than any archery business. Why don’t you make a thread about how you can chop off three heads with a flick of your wrist and a 10" dagger?



  • I wish they remove that head explode after arrow/bolt HS. Its quite ridiculous and annoying that happens. It started to happen after some patch and before it there was better.



  • Me and 2 other archers topscored a round:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/106 … archer.png


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