The Buckler



  • Be honest, it’s not very fun to use. When first playing the game I naturally gravitated towards it because, well, sword and buckler just looks pretty cool. I imagined bashing open defences and using it as a weapon in it’s own right. That boss looks as deadly as any mace.

    But it’s not. It’s a (not very good) arrow shield, a combat downgrade, a stamina sink and does the same damage as a foot. x Hundred hours later and a buckler looks like one of those people waving a sign by the side of the road. It’s a big hot dog with ‘this way to free kills’ written on it. And an arrow.

    So, to make it fun lets turn to the authority on all things fun, Wikipedia (shut up, it is):

    “…its size made it poor protection against missile weapons (e.g., arrows) but useful in deflecting the blow of an opponent’s sword or mace.” “…it was generally used as a companion weapon…”

    A weapon. Particularly this part: ““Metal fist”: A buckler could be used to directly attack an opponent by punching with either its flat face or its rim.”

    Sounds fun. So lets balance it along those lines:

    • Reduce the projectile coverage back to it’s previous crappy 25% as far as projectiles are concerned. It’s a bad arrow shield, that’s fair. Maybe even a little smaller, 20-22% and shrink the model a touch, it looks a bit big at times. Keep it as is for hand to hand fighting.

    • Still lose riposte (I thought about bringing it back, but the block holding nature of the shield really doesn’t allow for it, as nice (and accurate) as it’d be to do quick follow up attacks with the weapon hand)

    • No extra stamina loss. Useful for deflecting the blow of an opponent’s sword or mace. Testify.

    • Allow buckler swipes as part of a combo. A fast, short range broad swing to put between strikes that does good blunt damage (think cudgel), and is dependent on the move that preceded it. An alt swing that leaves the buckler in front creates a right to left opening attack like the javelin/flail bash, a swing that leaves it high on the left creates a sort of overhead, using the edge of the shield to strike down and across.

    So there it is. You lose ripostes and throwing attacks (for the maa or knight using a flail) and gain some unique attack options.

    The rest sort of shakes out in the wash. You gain a reduced vulnerability to feints, but the buckler is so open to flanking, and lack of riposte such a huge downside that it’s not much to cheer about.



  • They gotta do something with buckler, for knight anyways. No, not jav archer or MAA. I hate how there is cross-class weapons and equipment: it just creates a hub for balance issues. It would be better if each class had unique stuff, so it could be uniquely balanced rather than trying to tinker around with making it acceptable across the board.

    Anyway, buckler for knight:

    Keep its obscene stamina drain and give you ripostes with it would be one path, or making it drain LESS stamina to block with compared to kite and tower shield - to compensate for the fact it has minimal arrow defence-surface and poor visibility.

    But it wont happen.



  • So, improvements for the classes you like, but classes you don’t can suck it?

    Sounds about right.

    Giving ripostes to a block you can hold would be obscenely powerful. To give the buckler ripostes they’d have to make it parry like non-shield weapons, and it’d then feel very unlike a shield. Perhaps this could work if they introduced a smaller metal buckler, the type that just about covers the fist and not much else (you often see it in the illustration type tips that show during loading). Should be available to every weapon that uses a buckler currently though, no need to play favourites.



  • I like the idea improvements you have on the buckler, it could really use some love especially in the area of stam drain and utility over other more protective shields. I would argue that the buckler is a much better / bigger projectile blocker than you give it credit for but it’s no tower or heater shield. Other posts on this forum have lead me to believe that the problem however isn’t really the buckler having a large hit box but projectiles themselves having large hit boxes themselves.

    Also while knights using the flail have the biggest problem with the buckler it is still a problem for both agile Maa and javelin archers. Most Maa would rather not use a shield for melee purposes due to stam drain and recovery at minimal advantage but the heater shield offers a larger projectile shield with no real penalty if its on your back often. Javelin archers use it because they have too, they’d rather use another shield if they could but any buff to its utility would make the buckler viable over another shield. Poor knights need to block with their slow movement speed and in your face design so they run out of stamina very quickly.

    Lastly in addition to all the changes you suggested I must add that the buckler vision needs to be adjusted as using the smallest and currently weakest shield should offer the least vision impairment.



  • The knight buckler is held differently than the archer and MAA buckler. And becuase of that the knight buckler is worse than the rest. It doesn’t block as well.

    And they did change the buckler animation so you can see more. Now the problem with that in overheads now find it easier to get over. Especially with spears now. They just poke your damn face with a buckler.

    The buckler is supposed to be used like a parry. So you only block with it when you need to. You don’t hold it down.

    Also with the buckler you have to turn into attacks. You can’t just block and expect it to magically block things. Look to the left, right or up. Where ever the attack is coming from.

    As I said before making it so you can see with the buckler made it worse. What they should do is change it back and make it so you can combo with it. At the moment using it stops your attacks. And it gives your opponent all he time in the world to do something. And it does a lot more damage than a I I does. It does about 20 something damage while a kick does 5. Though I only find use for the shield attack with the javelin when My opponent has moved to my left.

    I don’t know if the stamina loss of the knight buckler is the same as the MAA or archer. But the knight’s supposed to be a tank and should have less stamina drainage using it.

    Now the bucks or isn’t actually a buckler. Its a small round shield. But “buckler” sounds better than “small round shield”.



  • @McLumberjack:

    So, improvements for the classes you like, but classes you don’t can suck it?

    Sounds about right.

    Giving ripostes to a block you can hold would be obscenely powerful. To give the buckler ripostes they’d have to make it parry like non-shield weapons, and it’d then feel very unlike a shield. Perhaps this could work if they introduced a smaller metal buckler, the type that just about covers the fist and not much else (you often see it in the illustration type tips that show during loading). Should be available to every weapon that uses a buckler currently though, no need to play favourites.

    Thats not what I said at all. I said that having a weapon/shield usable across several classes inherently creates balance issues. Which is just true - trying to balance something to be viable yet not OP across both a fast/squishy class and slow/tank class is presumably, pretty hard.

    Buckler isnt a shit shield for jav archers, its just fine. You cant buff the shield across the board without making jav archer ridiculous, for example.

    I also fail to see how giving knight buckler riposte would be ‘obscenely powerful’ in its current stamina drain state.

    -Increased attacking potential and feint negation

    -awful stamina drain as per currently, smaller surface area for missile defence

    Dont see that as obscenely powerful. Ripostes are not an undefeatable mechanic. Im not saying my idea is a paragon of balance and would work out perfectly in practice, but the idea that it would be obscenely powerful is, IMO, moronic.



  • @Triumphant:

    Thats not what I said at all. I said that having a weapon/shield usable across several classes inherently creates balance issues. Which is just true - trying to balance something to be viable yet not OP across both a fast/squishy class and slow/tank class is presumably, pretty hard.

    Buckler isnt a shit shield for jav archers, its just fine. You cant buff the shield across the board without making jav archer ridiculous, for example.

    I also fail to see how giving knight buckler riposte would be ‘obscenely powerful’ in its current stamina drain state.

    -Increased attacking potential and feint negation

    -awful stamina drain as per currently, smaller surface area for missile defence

    Dont see that as obscenely powerful. Ripostes are not an undefeatable mechanic. Im not saying my idea is a paragon of balance and would work out perfectly in practice, but the idea that it would be obscenely powerful is, IMO, moronic.

    The idea is to make the buckler more fun, because it isn’t now. It’s not fun for everyone, so if you fix it you fix it for everyone. It’s that simple. You don’t give the knight special treatment because he… what… has it worse? Because I don’t see how. Of the three classes that use the buckler, he is the one with the most alternatives to actually using it. Special abilities also are currently found at the base level of the class, meaning it applies regardless of weapon (backstab, dodge, charge, extra health). If you start adding special abilities on a weapon by weapon, class by class basis then you’re only going to create confusion. The game has to be clear to people that haven’t read patch notes.

    If you can’t see the gigantic benefits of a block that lasts as long as you want plus riposte then I can’t help you, because it seems plain as day. It just breaks so many things. It’s also not something that sounds fun or even particularly characteristic of the buckler as a weapon, just crazy overpowered.



  • I recon what they should do is allow the knight to use the kite shield with the flail for two reasons:
    -I’ve seen a live demonstration in the UK and they used a kite shield with the flail.
    -The style needed to make the flail viable does not work with the buckler in its current state.

    I agree with what is mentioned earlier in the thread that you cant try to balance buckler across this gap between the knight and archer/mAA. It’d be better to just give the knight a knight shield or maybe the “heater” (which is actually a kite shield or jousting shield….) rather then the buckler. The buckler does not fit the knight demographic or the purpose its trying to be used in (with the flail). So it’d be better to give some other shield and then make a new animation for a shield punch with that shield.

    Having said that i don’t think the stamina issue would be solved.

    I think shields need to have the gimp leash removed and the C:MW need to build a bridge and get over their psych-outs with shields…



  • I just want to see the buckler used as a weapon! But it would require some extra animations to create, which is an area TB is stretched pretty thin. Oh well, we can dream.



  • The buckler is used like a weapon…. :?
    you can punch with it or slap with it.



  • @Mockingbirch:

    I just want to see the buckler used as a weapon! But it would require some extra animations to create, which is an area TB is stretched pretty thin. Oh well, we can dream.

    If you stab with the flail it performs a shield bash with the rim of it that does like half the damage of the flail itself. Just sayin’- you can already do it and there’s already an animation for that. It’s got like -3 foot range on it and only really works to quickly flinch.

    Doesn’t the javelin archer also have this for the overhead? Sorry I’m too manly to be an archer and find out. :)



  • The buckler with its tiny coverage is currently more of a liability than anything else. Awful coverage, and you still get a stam penalty. If anything, it should reduce the stamina cost of blocking while having a very small coverage.
    It should be redesigned so that in combat you use it more actively than other shields (center grip = far more agility and offensive use). Realistically you’ve got your swordarm free when you parry, so ripostes should be very quick. That probably wouldn’t be good balance wise though. Then again, there’s no logic in making 1 hand without a shield as effective as 1 hand with a shield.

    Also, as a center grip shield it should have by far the deadliest bash of them all. You can’t deliver anywhere near as effective a blow when the shield is strapped to your arm.

    I suppose my idea would be to make it have a very low coverage, even in melee. If possible, even smaller than blocking with a weapon. However, stamina costs should be below weapon block levels, and if you time your blocks within a timespan lower than parry time with a weapon, you can effectively riposte with it.
    It should be a very risky but effective tool when blocking.



  • @soamd:

    The buckler with its tiny coverage is currently more of a liability than anything else. Awful coverage, and you still get a stam penalty. If anything, it should reduce the stamina cost of blocking while having a very small coverage.
    It should be redesigned so that in combat you use it more actively than other shields (center grip = far more agility and offensive use). Realistically you’ve got your swordarm free when you parry, so ripostes should be very quick. That probably wouldn’t be good balance wise though. Then again, there’s no logic in making 1 hand without a shield as effective as 1 hand with a shield.

    Also, as a center grip shield it should have by far the deadliest bash of them all. You can’t deliver anywhere near as effective a blow when the shield is strapped to your arm.

    I suppose my idea would be to make it have a very low coverage, even in melee. If possible, even smaller than blocking with a weapon. However, stamina costs should be below weapon block levels, and if you time your blocks within a timespan lower than parry time with a weapon, you can effectively riposte with it.
    It should be a very risky but effective tool when blocking.

    I really think you guys should just give the flail buckler a try, I think it’s different in timing (at least) than all other bucklers. I remember hearing somewhere that the buckler/flail combo has almost no raise/lower time, and I believe it. With the flail you can tap block almost the same way you do with a parry and attack about as fast as a riposte attacking from the block. I think it’s better because the flail still kinda sucks.

    I’ve tried the buckler with BS, NS, etc. and it’s not the same at all. I personally think all bucklers should be like the flail buckler at the very least.



  • All bucklers need to be 100% the same. The differences between them right now is rather unacceptable, that one buckler takes up different screen space than another. The major thing I want changed about the buckler though, is the non-block stance. It doesn’t even need to be in your screen, at all. The third person animation has the buckler well below your field of vision, you wouldn’t even notice it while sprinting with it. In first person, the thing covers up so much of your screen in idle state / while sprinting that I strictly play third person with the buckler. This is an issue I do not have with heater, kite, and the only shield comparable to buckler in being annoyingly large would be tower shield (for a very obvious reason too…)

    I’m also not a huge fan of how the first person buckler block looks now either, I think it should take a fraction of the lower left corner of your screen, not shrink to the center and give you only a good view of your peripherals and blocking everything in center. Think like the kite shield, only less obstructive. It is a tiny buckler after all, visibility should be a strength of using it, not a weakness.

    I’ve also noticed that the buckler block box is the same as all the other shields, but because of this, it isn’t aligned well with the shield mesh (at least in third person). Your left side of the shield is very easy to pass, whereas on the right I can turn far enough to give my opponent my side, and he’ll have a hard time hitting through. It needs to be better centered, so the right hand side of the buckler isn’t particularly dominant to the left.



  • The javelin buckler has the ‘overhead’ shield punch which does damage and then the ‘kick’ does a shield slap and works just like kick…just looks different.

    The range on the shield punch is abysmal but it helps if you aim down slightly and to the right side of your target.

    I’d be guessing that you could edit the ini somewhere so that the buckler can do shield punch on the MAA and with the knight when he uses his secondaries but then you’d be losing the weapon overhead (unless you bind to separate buttons?). I’ve never bothered trying to edit the ini because i don’t have time to mess around and i play randomly with different load outs often so i don’t want to have specialised setups that i have to mess around with.


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