Balance/Feature Compilation (Feint Replacement and More)



  • Greetings. Having recently found, played, analyzed, and enjoyed Chilvalry, I wish to add suggestions to better the game. Overall, Chivalry is fun and has potential but I find it lacks a certain ‘fun factor’ in higher-leveled play. I am an above-average player so don’t assume my opinion is professional or right by any means.

    Before I begin, prior to Chivalry, I played a game dubbed “Rune Halls of Valhalla.” In my opinion, it is the best melee game out there and I wish Chivalry would take some lessons from it. Rune is the epitome of easy to learn, difficult to master. It is a Viking melee hackfest of infinite replayability and raging, just like Chivalry but to a greater degree. Having played that game 7 years (and having stopped due to a dying community – the game is very old), some of my ideas will be Rune-inspired but nevertheless, they all focus on bettering Chivalry EXTENSIVELY. Here is a video demonstration of what Rune is about for the unsullied. (3rd video is more modern and much better quality)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8z403-cg3c (A tournament championship)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8cvGc2yxHQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLahtlAIV6s

    As to the issues with Chivalry at the moment, in high level play where matrixing, dragging, feinting, and alternative blows are common place, I find the feinting feature to be a useful but ultimately, non-engaging mechanic. It’s easy to use, yes, but the point of just face-hugging, feint for panic-parry and attack is ultimately an unenjoyably formality (this is where feints are commonplace – obviously it’s used in other times). It is a disincentive for defensive players who will inevitably fall for the panic-parry lure and suffer. Stamina alterations will not prevent this. I propose mechanics to replace feinting yet offer more flexibility and encourage different play styles to the game so without further ado, the suggestions:

    **1. Remove feinting mechanic. See bottom suggestions for substitutes.

    2. Have innate parry function for weapons. In other words, weapons can parry incoming hits without hitting the parry button so long as the weapon models touch (before you instantly reject this concept, hear me out).

    I believe to replace feinting, you need both an offensive and defensive mechanism that enhances the game – this being the defensive mechanic (and no, it does not remove forced parries - that is perfectly fine as it is). First of all, this change gives further advantage to matrixing and footwork where character positioning can become crucial in time of needs. Instead of just last second feint, panic-parry saves, you are given more control to avoid blows if you have the aptitude – a very difficult skill to master.

    Since 1-handed weapons hit so quickly in close range, this will not be an issue in terms of abuse. Just like you aim away from a shield, you can aim away from a weapon. This parry will drain stamina like a regular parry and will not allow the counter riposte option you get through a forced parry. The window of attack after an unforced parry should be enough to allow the attacker to defend themselves.
    With regards to slow 2-handers which 1-handers can abuse, a LARGE stamina penalty should be inflicted (they’re the easiest weapons to dodge away from any who). For 2-handers vs 2-hander fights, this penalty will be like a regular parry.

    The big complaint with this comes with shields that now have 2 methods of defense. Seeing the endless shieldless mma’s and non-shielded 1-handed sworded knights in duels, I realize this can translate well. There are already complaints, especially among mma’s that bucklers and the other shields are usually pointless save for archers. This suggestion will give an incentive to pick shields yet not make it superior.

    To remedy this, If a shielder is holding defend, their weapon will not have this innate parry function. Otherwise, the weapon parries by default (not the shield). Since this still means attackers have it harder since they need to avoid both weapon and shield, any unintentional parries by shielders will result in a tiny attack delay so unlike non-shielders, they can’t instantly retaliate and are open for further punishment.

    Lastly, for attackers, any unintentional parry DOES NOT stop the attacker from comboing like a regular parry. This prevents defensive abuse and also makes for some AMAZING looking fights!
    If anyone has criticisms of this, ask away. I honestly believe this will work wonderfully.

    3. As I said, to replace feinting, you need a new offensive and defensive mechanic. As of now I have a simple 2-step suggestion for an offensive mechanic and will update with better ones if they come to mind.

    I believe having an alternative option for the stab wherein a more drawn back, slower, delayed stab would give players the option of tricking defenders without feinting. How is this any different… simple.

    This is not a full animation cancelation like feinting thus, this will be a more predictable method of attack. Furthermore, if the 2 stab animations are slightly different, it will help good players find a method to stop those who would simply face hug you. Also note that if suggestion 2 is in place, face hugging abuse would be almost gone. Also don’t forget the usefulness of this new attack with dragging which adds an interesting dynamic.

    The second part of this offensive overhaul is an increased role of jump attacks. Even a defensive mechanic like in suggestion 2 will in theory give more leverage to defensive users and promote very ‘turtleish tactics’. At the moment, jump attacks are not common and drain extra stamina and risk you getting stuck in midair for a devastating overhead by your opponent.

    Using gravity as the motivator, any middair attacks (thrust, slash, stab) will be 30-50% faster when done in air. For those offensive players that meet very passive, defensive players, this gives them an option similar to feinting in close-proximity situations without the ridiculous animation freezes and endless panic parries as a result of it. Lastly, a possible incentive for those doubting that this will be enough to promote jump attacks, a lower stamina drain for attacks in midair will solve that issue.

    4. MISC: Previously suggested, have options for team arenas.

    5. MISC: Previously suggested, a fun feature, have equipable limbs that do minimal damage when thrown or used in melee. Would be absolutely hilarious and people will love it.

    6. New Class: Coistrel. A dual wielding warrior between mma and vanguard in health and speed (slower than mma, more health than mma but not vanguard). No special abilities however, is gifted with a unique dual wielding fighting mechanic.

    7. More customization for characters which the recent patch has thankfully done. More colors, models, etc. (Inevitable feature) Optional capes/cloaks would be cool.

    8. A revamping of weapons where at the moment, weapons like daggers can block mauls, etc. with minimal penalties. Add severe stamina penalties for one. Stuns or health damage are other open options.

    9. Chat bubbles or a similar graphic above players when in chat. Allows players to know when they are about to chat kill someone or not.

    10. Ping should be shown in duel servers and any other applicable servers.

    11. Create server function is too restrictive. No names, not all variations of a map available nor modes for a map that has functionality for more gametypes. No straightforward, GUI method of handling this issue.

    12. A map editor would be perfect. This game needs a modding community to truly survive. Having a map/script editor would allow this to occur much easier.

    13. Reduced speed on several 2-handed weapons that outswing 1-handers (claymore, etc.) Both a major realism and balance issue.

    14. Something must be done with chat especially in duel servers. Whenever I’m in the middle of chat and a match concludes or the menu pops up, I become unable to continue typing my message while the text remains on screen until it later refreshes. This issue is especially relevant when you type right after you win/lose a match and the victory/defeat message hasn’t popped up.

    15. Not sure if a bug or not, but challenges in duel should preferably take you out of the pool. There are so many times where challenges simply won’t lead into a duel or that the pool automatically allots you a match.**

    Thank you in advance for responses and I will update this thread if I have any more suggestions. I really do wish suggestion 2 could be implemented in some way.



  • I updated the thread with more suggestions. My suggestions to replace feints are 3 parts. 1 defensive mechanic (suggestion 2) and 2 offensive mechanics (suggestion 3).

    Please feel free to comment. I really think there can be major improvements done to the combat mechanics.



  • Very well thought out post feremuntrus. I’m glad some new blood has finally seen through the problems with feinting (in this game’s implementation) and delivered some great discussion and suggestions to perfect gameplay.



  • Too much and too drastic changes to the core combat of Chivalry, don’t think any of these will actually influence the game in any way.



  • @Sophax:

    Too much and too drastic changes to the core combat of Chivalry, don’t think any of these will actually influence the game in any way.

    The only **main **suggestions that directly change combat mechanics are suggestions 1-3 so I wouldn’t say it’s too much. Furthermore, only suggestion 2 has anything completely new to propose (yet it’s a very realistic concept). To answer the point regarding influence:

    1. Innate parries would immediately influence the game. Many attacks by default will now realistically be parried if mis-aimed into the opponent’s weapon. People will immediately gravitate towards aiming away from a weapon just as people do by default to avoid a forced parry. The difference?

    Aiming away from the weapon becomes more a priority and the angles and footwork involved to avoid it will be more important. Furthermore a player can matrix and move his sword around to avoid a blow if their forced parry fails or if his footwork fails him. Innate parries also allows you a chance to instantly retaliate without the pause you get from a forced parry. Imagine being on attack after witnessing your opponent fails his parry and is open for damage yet your swords clash. He strikes you back whereby your reaction of surprise cause him to get a successful blow at your body. There are many opportunities and scenarios with this feature and I can guarantee you it’ll only realistically enhance the combat. A final point is this. I made this thread criticizing feinting’s role in high-level play. Obviously this isn’t something the average beginner can immediately master hence the term, “easy to pick up, difficult to master.”

    2. Answering for both the alternative stab and the jump attacks, think of alternative attacks. In theory you could’ve argued that it wouldn’t have made much difference as well since the attacks are nearly identical; plus, you could get an alternative strike on your second slash attack. However, that mechanic has saved me countless times when I face knights as an MMA. Once people realize a certain strategy or attack has potential they will use it, others will see, and its popularity will spread.

    This is especially true for the attack jumps. Not only do I propose increased attack speed in midair with regards to gravity, but to lessen the punishment, stamina costs of attacks in midair could be reduced as well. I don’t need to make an argument for the alternative stab since the present alternative strikes already speak for themselves.



  • Made further updates.

    For so much animosity and complaints among the players with regards to feinting, not initiating some method of dialogue will not mend the issues. I’ve seen many discussions regarding panic parries and feinting’s abuse yet I find few substantive discussions on its overall role in Chivalry and possible replacements.

    There is no way my ideas are the definitive best choices but ignoring the ‘issue’ and simply complaining in-game won’t give developers the feedback they need. Even to players like me who tolerate feinting and use it, there is always room for improvement and I wish to start that conversation here.



  • The only downside I see to this is that combat is going to look even more strange than it already does with further increases to the strength of body placement. I like these suggestions but people will probably be turning 10x as much as they are now to block swings and avoid hitting the enemy’s weapon. I fear it may be seizure warfare but I’d still prefer that over feint>lookdown overhead matches we have now.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    The only downside I see to this is that combat is going to look even more strange than it already does with further increases to the strength of body placement. I like these suggestions but people will probably be turning 10x as much as they are now to block swings and avoid hitting the enemy’s weapon. I fear it may be seizure warfare but I’d still prefer that over feint>lookdown overhead matches we have now.

    Valid point but when you think about it, no medieval fight was a simple hackfest. Footwork and leaning made up the majority of dodging and angled attacks. Seeing as the hit box at the moment is pretty significant, I honestly doubt seizure combat would exist. If people twist like crazy, it wouldn’t be that much different from now and against a competent player, they will be punished. Any sort of seizure-ish combat will be among pros who will lean a lot to avoid blows but that wouldn’t involve spam tilting. Think of the fight of Achilies vs Hector in the movie Troy where they perform remarkable dodges and leans to avoid killing blows. This will almost mimic that and again, for those crazy people who will spin like crazy, this parry would not stop combos so the defender is risking his life more than anything. Matrixing has a very small rate of succession as it is with most players aiming towards the chest, abdominal regions.

    Don’t take that explanation as counter-evidence on the mechanic’s influence. Here I am addressing purposely abusing the innate party function which should not be an issue.



  • Yes footwork and body movement were important in sword fights but unfortunately with the system Chivalry has things are exaggerated and it can be pretty breaking to immersion when you see a player flailing their camera around to fool someone or spinning for reverse overheads. I think most of the silliness can still be forgiven since it provides a satisfying medieval combat experience but if you were to increase the importance and amount with these changes it might become annoying. I can’t really say for certain.

    On another note what your passive parrying system also apply to shields? If so it might be very difficult to get in a regular attack on a shield user. They might even be able to block many strikes while they are swinging. Then again there are still many ways to beat a shield user like winning by stamina management or kicks.



  • Too bad TBS already stated they are never removing feints from the game.



  • You never know, stranger things have happened. I think I will run the no feint mod on our server when the SDK comes out and see how people like it.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    On another note what your passive parrying system also apply to shields? If so it might be very difficult to get in a regular attack on a shield user. They might even be able to block many strikes while they are swinging. Then again there are still many ways to beat a shield user like winning by stamina management or kicks.

    Like I said regarding shields, when not holding defend, only the weapon should have the innate parry. When that parry hits (and only shields should protect when holding defend - not weapon), there is a slight delay compared to regular weapon innate parries. It would only make it fair because attackers have it harder to attack shielders since they have to avoid both the shield AND weapon. Also, like I said regarding 2-handers, they’d do big stamina penalties to 1-handed weapons. This allows 2-handers to have a stamina draining strategy if they aim specifically at the shielder’s weapon. I think this is very realistic and strategically viable.

    Also, like you already pointed out, there are some crazy strategies that don’t break the game but are unrealistic yet still fun. The parry system is not something beginners or intermediate players can take advantage of easily so there should be no issues. Plus, this gives a possible method of defense when facing multiple opponents by yourself which at the moment is very difficult when facing competent fighters.

    @?B:

    Too bad TBS already stated they are never removing feints from the game.

    If TBS is as good a company as any that cares for its consumers, it wouldn’t be so resilient on this position if a majority of players voice their opposition through petition, vote, etc. Never doubt the power of commercial profit through game-improvement and customer satisfaction.



  • For get your hopes up.

    Learning how to play is probably a better solution to all your problems.

    Adding a passive parry removes skill and turns the game into “whoever runs out of stamina dies first”. And that’s no fun. Feints are far easier to combat now days. all you have to do is wait for the actual swing before you parry. Many people parry part way through windup. That’s what makes feinting useful. At least parry late. As if they have a fast weapon and feint you parry it anyway.

    Many people don’t know how to use the buckler on the MAA and archer. The buckler on the knight is different and that sucks and is broken. But the MAa and archer buckler works differently from every other shield. You use it as a parry rather than like a shield. And you turn into their attacks.

    Your longer stab feature number 3 is already in the game. But instead of it being a button its an actual skill. Its called mouse dragging. And you can use it to speed up or delay all attacks. Stabs LMBs and overheads. You simply drag your mouse in a direction.

    Your other suggestions are interesting.

    A duel wield class would be silly for this game. Though they are making an expansion so hope for one in there. Its a proper expansion apparently. Not a DLC that adds maps weapons and maps.

    Daggers do get severe stamina penalties against a maul.

    Chat bubbles above players would ruin immersion.

    And two handed weapons slower down for realism? No no. If you are talking realism you would wan to speed them up. Balance maybe but realism two handers are too slow.



  • @lemonater47:

    Many people parry part way through windup. That’s what makes feinting useful. At least parry late. As if they have a fast weapon and feint you parry it anyway.

    I’m sick and tired of this misconception. Many weapons are so fast with latency that you just cannot read that far into the windup. If you are close or face hugging range then you can’t even read feints on a maul unless you maybe have 0 ping. Some weapons do have tells since the big patch (namely greatsword and zoolander) but the majority do not. One handers are just as bad as they’ve ever been. You can parry late to save you some of the time but if you’re fighting something like a quarter staff or lookdown sow there isn’t enough time for “late” because it all happens so fast. If your opponent feints and waits to see what you do then you’re screwed too.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    @lemonater47:

    Many people parry part way through windup. That’s what makes feinting useful. At least parry late. As if they have a fast weapon and feint you parry it anyway.

    I’m sick and tired of this misconception. Many weapons are so fast with latency that you just cannot read that far into the windup. If you are close or face hugging range then you can’t even read feints on a maul unless you maybe have 0 ping. Some weapons do have tells since the big patch (namely greatsword and zoolander) but the majority do not. One handers are just as bad as they’ve ever been. You can parry late to save you some of the time but if you’re fighting something like a quarter staff or lookdown sow there isn’t enough time for “late” because it all happens so fast. If your opponent feints and waits to see what you do then you’re screwed too.

    I only have trouble when they follow through with a lookdown overhead instead of feint.

    Only time it really goes wrong for me.



  • @Feremuntrus:

    2. Have innate parry function for weapons. In other words, weapons can parry incoming hits without hitting the parry button so long as the weapon models touch (before you instantly reject this concept, hear me out).

    I think the detection for this will blow our CPUs :D

    Well I like all those suggestions, however some of them will change the game fundamentally and this community is not good with change.



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