'Realism' Mode and Alternative Votekick System



  • I propose the implementation of an alternative mechanics system which revolves around a greater sense of realism with the weaponry in addition to changes to the votekick system. This is not remotely academic but merely a series of relatively educated ideas.
    I know there are other issues with the game that are more pressing but I am not discussing them here.

    ‘Realism Mode’
    The system could be implemented by dedicating half of the current official servers into ‘Arcade (current)’ for want of a better word and ‘Realistic’ or some alternative. Dedicated servers would implement this at their discretion if they so wish. Both game types would be displayed as an additional tab as one or the other in the ‘join game’ menu; a succinct warning about the differences before entering the server would be displayed temporarily for new users. The possible Implementations would be:

    1. Weapons wholly incapable of deflecting or blocking attacks such as the Archer’s daggers against heavy, powerful weapons such as the Vanguard’s top tier of swords and the knight’s Axe and Hammer tiers would instead receive 50% of the attacking weapon’s damage but negate the rest from a successful block. The Archers would receive greater speed on foot, levering greater agility against the comparatively slow heavy classes; this couple with the 50% additional damage dealt by Archers from behind would surely reinstate the balance alongside their ranged abilities. Coupled, too, with the reasonable knockback effect, the lighter classes have the ability to escape at speed.
    2. Already proposed and worth reiterating would be the damage dealt by the VG swords and pole weapons and the K’s swords during the wind-up and wind-down phases by creating a range of possible damage during each phase. For instance, the VG’s Zweih?nder would cause 20% of the maximum damage during the initial quarter of the wind-down, then the maximum during the second to third quarters and final 20/10% during the last phases. This would apply to all the long bladed weapons and the damage would be proportional to each weapon specification. So the potential damage remains the same but will fade and build during the beginning and end respectively. This could also be done with the smaller MAA and A weapons too to balance the system throughout, but is most noticeable with the larger weapons.
    3. Removal of MAA’s forward ‘dodge’. It should not really be applied as an offensive tactic but a primarily defensive manoeuvre. Plus, this can almost totally subvert the chase mechanic as the MAA can, for some length of time, evade being caught.
    4. Top of the leader board players could respawn as a ‘Captain’ at the close of each TO phase. Basically playing can be given the option to respawn with increased stamina and health stats of around 10-20%. But to allow others to achieve this as well, the selected captain would lose 10-15 points for every death but gain the usual amount for every kill. Therefore allowing lower scoring individuals the opportunity to become the ‘Captain’. I would be hesitant to add this to any other than TO, especially modes like LTS. Admittedly, it is more of a fun suggestion than anything else.
    5. Some physics issues. VGs are able to leap up inclines, such as stairs, with their running attacks as though they were on a level, flat terrain. It requires severely reducing.

    Whether these are enough reasons to implement an additional system is debatable, perhaps there are more to support this possible new feature; maybe in an expansion to the game or as a part of a patch. Plus, being not technically minded, I am not entirely sure of the viability of these changes or the logistical problems they pose.

    Votekick System.

    I personally, and rarely, have issues with this system but there are notable inconsistencies and general problems with it. These are my main concerns with the system. Mainly:

    1. Those who initiate a votekick do not necessarily require, or have, a valid reason to use it other than vague suspicions of hacking or basically being repeatedly outmatched by another player. Alternatively, a player may be kicked without any team damage or idleness. Or simply a player would spam the votekick system endlessly and generally get nowhere. These generally take up a fairly significant proportion of the votekicks which are issued.
    2. When the votekick screen shows a high team damage percentage, it does not guarantee that that player will be kicked since the inherent problem is that the players are given a choice, three in fact: Yes, No or Neither. It is a major inconsistency and makes the success and failure of the votekick almost unpredictable.
      Admittedly, these issues only make up about 20%* or so of the overall votekicks which are initiated as the rest are made for genuine reasons such as team damage or idleness. But this 20% causes a lot of problems which do ruin the game and the community for many players.
      Ideally, there would be admins available at all times on all servers to monitor the games and the various player statistics but that is clearly impossible and largely impractical. I know there are some who do but unfortunately they are too few.
      Alternatively then, what I would prefer would be an automated kicking system which, every five minutes, would kick those who had a team damage percentage of 25% and over within that time. Then the team damage counter for all players would reset and start again throughout team modes. The five minutes would allow for accidental team damage to be reduced and not be unfairly kicked. I suppose, If I were to be cynical, that people would elaborately dodge this but I would suspect that most offending incidences would be dealt with. Although this would remove the players input, it would nevertheless create greater consistency and less abuse than the current one.
      Suggestions have been made for a limited number of votekicks per person per game that can be started but this will not really solve abusive players, especially since it would inhibit the availability of votekicking, if unsuccessful, people for wrongdoings. As a result, it would compound the problem rather than resolving it.
      Unfortunately, this proposal would make it tremendously difficult to remove individuals who use speed hacks etc. since the player’s ability to votekick them would have been removed. A solution might be if Torn Banner receive a sufficient number of complaints from a particular player then they would be banned either permanently or temporarily. But again this is not a short-term solution and allows for no immediate action to be taken at the time in question. Although from my experiences these incidences are few and far between.
      I think the mute system deals sufficiently with abusive players in the chat window but I would prefer to see selective muting of particular players in the text chat and the voice chat. Although I’m sure complaints can be lodged with the server controllers or Torn Banner. Therefore, the utilisation of the player controlled votekick system would be, again, unnecessary since the issue can be dealt with appropriately.
      Timescale for votekicks with an automated system could be a ban from the particular server for an hour for team damage and perhaps ten minutes for idleness. Repeated kicks of the same player within a would from a particular server, say three, would result in a month long ban from the server. Equally, if the individual is kicked from multiple servers then a fortnightly ban from all servers would be enforced. This would apply even if the limit of bans from one server has not been reached. A clear explanation would be given to the offending player of the reasons for their ban.

    I write this after committing approximately 283 hours to the game and having experienced a variety of situations where these alterations or additions would, I think, be helpful. These are changes which I would personally welcome and which I acknowledge will perhaps be to the disagreement of others. So… any thoughts or additions?

    *Percentages are made from my experiences with the game and may not reflect the experiences of other gamers.



  • #2 should happen anyway.



  • i think if people don’t vote, that mean’s they’re not having an issue… .and therefore a non-vote should count as NO.

    Everyone in the servers vote should count as no until they voted yes, a sort of innocent until proven guilty type deal.

    Also, for the spam votekick thing from one player, admins need to adjust the settings on their server to put more time between votes from 1 player. I think i have a 3 minute timer between votekicks from the same person, might even up it a bit more. There can also be a timer between how many times the same person can be votekicked in a timeframe.



  • Realism mode should be a community mod. Not somehing to be worked on by torn banner. It would be harder to implement than it sounds.

    With the votekicking they are bad ideas.

    1. That would make it worse. I thought you made an educated decision. You didn’t think about it at all. All the trolls would do is put some bullshit reason in and more people will believe it.

    2. Its a democracy. People can vote how they like. And an auto com is a bad idea. A very bad idea. The margin between being a careless noob and an actual teamkiller doesn’t exist. That’s the problem. So what would happen is the new guys get kicked all the time. And a deliberate teamkiller gets votekicked anyway. So there’s no point.

    Both those ideas would cause more harm than good.



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    i think if people don’t vote, that mean’s they’re not having an issue… .and therefore a non-vote should count as NO.

    Everyone in the servers vote should count as no until they voted yes, a sort of innocent until proven guilty type deal.

    Also, for the spam votekick thing from one player, admins need to adjust the settings on their server to put more time between votes from 1 player. I think i have a 3 minute timer between votekicks from the same person, might even up it a bit more. There can also be a timer between how many times the same person can be votekicked in a timeframe.

    Thanks for the reply!

    I understand what you mean but I don’t know if that would hinder the votekick system more by passing automatic ‘no’ for those who choose neither.
    Well it’s interesting you mention the timings between each post because what motivated me to write a post on the forums was that in particular. In one game, a votekick was initiated against me almost seamlessly one after the other by one individual under the reasoning that I was a ‘glitchy noob’ and for killing him in a TD match (he(?) was on the other team); he was level 39. I don’t know a great deal about the admin’s abilities but it seems that they do vary a fair bit.



  • The whole Realism mode is indeed interesting, but should be handled by the modding community, not Torn Banners Studio. With the future integration the Steamworks, and the current creation of the Chivalry Nexus, mods are bound to pop up in the near future. There is already PROMode, which is a little in the direction of realism, though not as expanded as your idea. I would definitely like to play a more realistic version of Chivalry, though I fear that the VG and KN classes would be played more, even with buffs to MAA and AR. Your ideas are solid and would make a good mod.

    As for the votekick suggestions, I have to say they are almost all badong. A system such as a kick should NEVER be automated, even with well defined thresholds. I do agree with some points of your votekick suggestions, so I’ll go point by point:

    1. I think the votekick action/command should have a second interface to input a reason. The legit reasons for kicking are team damage, idleness, hacking or abuse. So after selecting the player and pressing votekick (or using the command), a second menu could pop (or require another command) to select among reasons, like:

    1. Team Damage
    2. Idle Time
    3. Hacking
    4. Abuse
    5. Misc (for any other reason not listed)

    and the selected reason would be displayed with the vote window. I understand that some people would choose hacking, even if they are just butthurt by the better skills of a fellow player, and that it may encourage unknowing bystanders to just vote yes as a reflex against hacking. However I think it would not be significantly higher than a current voter stating “haX!” in the chat after initiating the vote.

    2. I think that this would be the worst thing to implement. Here are a few scenarios where legitimate players would get killed and TK’ers would stay:

    _A beginner archer is shooting in close melees (which archers should not do, but still) with the longbow and bodkin arrow tips. Of his 30 arrows stock, four hit targets within the 5 minute window. Two of those four targets are backside friendly fire, which end up killing two KN, while his two other shots kill the two wounded MAA whom were fighting the knights. His team damage is close up to 50%, and would be kicked at the end of the 5 minutes window, regardless of his previous performance.

    A douche bag VG is preforming very well and is not LMB’ing like a madmen on bath salts. Suddenly, his douche genes kick in, and wants to mess with the other players of his team. He takes notice to when the kicking automatically occurs, and as he notices a kicking, starts gratuitously attacking/killing a member of his team. Without resting, he goes against the enemy and ices four of them with mad Zweihander LMB’ing. Team damage is low, kicking does not occurs.

    A newbie player is joining one of his first games. He’s not that familiar with all the controls. As soon as he spawns, he hits some random mouse buttons to see what does what, damaging and/or killing one or a few members of his team. Come the first 5 minutes hammer, having hit no enemy player, his team damage is 100%, is kicked for being new and inexperienced._

    You idea of automated kicks is a good intention, but I think your thresholds are too low, and that some situations require human judgment, like speed hacks. To expand on your suggestions, what I would personally suggest is both an automated and manual votekick system. The automated system would handle the crucially high anomalies, like 66%+ team damage, and 180 sec+ idle times, while the manual votekick would handle abuse, hacking and miscellaneous. The manual votekick would also be restrained in time and occurrences, like maybe a vote cooldown of 2 min 30 sec period (counting the 30 sec voting time, each player could initiate a vote every 3 min).

    For the ban period, I think that unless players have omniscience, then there will be false accusations and false judgment. All it takes is a little laggy server, a butthurt loser, and then a legit player gets branded a hacker, gets votekicked, and banned from the server for X time. Some players are already reporting hackers, and I think some measures are taken against these individuals. If a time ban is to be instated, it should be something low, like a few hours. In the case of a legit hacker, the players will enjoy the server for some times before he returns, and in the case of a false positive, the kicked player only suffers from a break from that particular server. I also think that after a lot of successful hacking votekick, that player should be automatically reported to Torn Banners, or even Steam (they VAC should work after all).

    And for the mute system, I personally don’t pay enough attention to the chat, and I’m fairly sure that the mute command from the scoreboard can voicechat and textchat mute a specific player. The global mute from the configuration menu is just when you want to play the game with no distractions and no care, or are playing with another communication software (Skype, Vent, TS3, etc).

    Anyway sorry for the wall of text, those are my thoughts on your ideas.



  • @osta2501:

    The whole Realism mode is indeed interesting, but should be handled by the modding community, not Torn Banners Studio. With the future integration the Steamworks, and the current creation of the Chivalry Nexus, mods are bound to pop up in the near future. There is already PROMode, which is a little in the direction of realism, though not as expanded as your idea. I would definitely like to play a more realistic version of Chivalry, though I fear that the VG and KN classes would be played more, even with buffs to MAA and AR. Your ideas are solid and would make a good mod.

    As for the votekick suggestions, I have to say they are almost all badong. A system such as a kick should NEVER be automated, even with well defined thresholds. I do agree with some points of your votekick suggestions, so I’ll go point by point:

    1. I think the votekick action/command should have a second interface to input a reason. The legit reasons for kicking are team damage, idleness, hacking or abuse. So after selecting the player and pressing votekick (or using the command), a second menu could pop (or require another command) to select among reasons, like:

    1. Team Damage
    2. Idle Time
    3. Hacking
    4. Abuse
    5. Misc (for any other reason not listed)

    and the selected reason would be displayed with the vote window. I understand that some people would choose hacking, even if they are just butthurt by the better skills of a fellow player, and that it may encourage unknowing bystanders to just vote yes as a reflex against hacking. However I think it would not be significantly higher than a current voter stating “haX!” in the chat after initiating the vote.

    2. I think that this would be the worst thing to implement. Here are a few scenarios where legitimate players would get killed and TK’ers would stay:

    _A beginner archer is shooting in close melees (which archers should not do, but still) with the longbow and bodkin arrow tips. Of his 30 arrows stock, four hit targets within the 5 minute window. Two of those four targets are backside friendly fire, which end up killing two KN, while his two other shots kill the two wounded MAA whom were fighting the knights. His team damage is close up to 50%, and would be kicked at the end of the 5 minutes window, regardless of his previous performance.

    A douche bag VG is preforming very well and is not LMB’ing like a madmen on bath salts. Suddenly, his douche genes kick in, and wants to mess with the other players of his team. He takes notice to when the kicking automatically occurs, and as he notices a kicking, starts gratuitously attacking/killing a member of his team. Without resting, he goes against the enemy and ices four of them with mad Zweihander LMB’ing. Team damage is low, kicking does not occurs.

    A newbie player is joining one of his first games. He’s not that familiar with all the controls. As soon as he spawns, he hits some random mouse buttons to see what does what, damaging and/or killing one or a few members of his team. Come the first 5 minutes hammer, having hit no enemy player, his team damage is 100%, is kicked for being new and inexperienced._

    You idea of automated kicks is a good intention, but I think your thresholds are too low, and that some situations require human judgment, like speed hacks. To expand on your suggestions, what I would personally suggest is both an automated and manual votekick system. The automated system would handle the crucially high anomalies, like 66%+ team damage, and 180 sec+ idle times, while the manual votekick would handle abuse, hacking and miscellaneous. The manual votekick would also be restrained in time and occurrences, like maybe a vote cooldown of 2 min 30 sec period (counting the 30 sec voting time, each player could initiate a vote every 3 min).

    For the ban period, I think that unless players have omniscience, then there will be false accusations and false judgment. All it takes is a little laggy server, a butthurt loser, and then a legit player gets branded a hacker, gets votekicked, and banned from the server for X time. Some players are already reporting hackers, and I think some measures are taken against these individuals. If a time ban is to be instated, it should be something low, like a few hours. In the case of a legit hacker, the players will enjoy the server for some times before he returns, and in the case of a false positive, the kicked player only suffers from a break from that particular server. I also think that after a lot of successful hacking votekick, that player should be automatically reported to Torn Banners, or even Steam (they VAC should work after all).

    And for the mute system, I personally don’t pay enough attention to the chat, and I’m fairly sure that the mute command from the scoreboard can voicechat and textchat mute a specific player. The global mute from the configuration menu is just when you want to play the game with no distractions and no care, or are playing with another communication software (Skype, Vent, TS3, etc).

    Anyway sorry for the wall of text, those are my thoughts on your ideas.

    That’s a great reply, thank you!

    I thought it might be an interesting addition. Hopefully a mod will be created for it since it has a lot of potential to heighten the overall experience; certainly as a new challenge to get to grips with.

    I realise that the thresholds I described were a bit unrealistic and impractical but simply as a way to illustrate the possible parameters by which the system could operate.

    I agree with your examples in point two that an automated system that is so rigid would unfortunately discriminate against innocent players and not actually deal with the problem itself. Unless it was an unbelievably intricate system then removing the human element would quite disastrous.

    The current system, for the time being, does work for the most part but I think it requires assistance with refinements you’ve suggested which are more reasonable. I think there would be some potential in adding an automated system, one in line with your enhancements. So would you suggest having an automated system to deal with the high anomalies as team damage and idle times, as you’ve defined them, alongside a manual votekick solely concerned with hacking, abuse and so forth (with the second input menu too)?

    I usually play on a non-official server and the admins are on most nights so the problems that might arise are suitably dealt with appropriately. But again this is besides the main point.



  • An autokick if it was implemented should only autokick AFK players after say 3 minutes.

    It shouldn’t really handle team damage. If someone is teamkilling they get votekicked anyway. So really an auto team damaged kick is useless.

    Adding a reason field wouldn’t make it better. Its more likely to make it worse.



  • @lemonater47:

    An autokick if it was implemented should only autokick AFK players after say 3 minutes.

    It shouldn’t really handle team damage. If someone is teamkilling they get votekicked anyway. So really an auto team damaged kick is useless.

    Adding a reason field wouldn’t make it better. Its more likely to make it worse.

    Well that is partly why i suggested an auto-kick in the first place really, because the success rate of votekicking people manually, regardless of their team damage percentage, is not always successful whereas a more refined (than my original suggestion) auto-kick system would hopefully deal with that. People have made suggested amendments to my thoughts on it for a system which would minimise incorrect kicks.

    I think adding a additional input like a reason would be used by Torn Banner to identify the reasons why someone is being kicked alongside information which would be stored to either substantiate or disprove those claims. Regular complaints might create patterns for certain repeated ‘kickees’. That would be my brief thought on that.



  • @Geletory:

    @lemonater47:

    An autokick if it was implemented should only autokick AFK players after say 3 minutes.

    It shouldn’t really handle team damage. If someone is teamkilling they get votekicked anyway. So really an auto team damaged kick is useless.

    Adding a reason field wouldn’t make it better. Its more likely to make it worse.

    Well that is partly why i suggested an auto-kick in the first place really, because the success rate of votekicking people manually, regardless of their team damage percentage, is not always successful whereas a more refined (than my original suggestion) auto-kick system would hopefully deal with that. People have made suggested amendments to my thoughts on it for a system which would minimise incorrect kicks.

    I think adding a additional input like a reason would be used by Torn Banner to identify the reasons why someone is being kicked alongside information which would be stored to either substantiate or disprove those claims. Regular complaints might create patterns for certain repeated ‘kickees’. That would be my brief thought on that.

    The reason why it isn’t always successful is because people look at the scoreboard and see its some rank zero who’s played the current match for less than 2 minutes. That is why.

    Deliberate teamkilling with an above 50% team damage ratio always get kicked. Even now the retards have learned that if they don’t kick an enemy teamkiller this round he’s likely to be on your own team the next round.


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