My opinion about balance in the latest version



  • @Peter:

    So you think in reallife you could swing them even faster? Human’s muscles aren’t even capaple of that. Twohanders are heavy!

    If you think 2.5kg is heavy.
    Yes, I am very sure you and I could move a sword much faster in real life.



  • @Orkboy:

    @Peter:

    So you think in reallife you could swing them even faster? Human’s muscles aren’t even capaple of that. Twohanders are heavy!

    If you think 2.5kg is heavy.
    Yes, I am very sure you and I could move a sword much faster in real life.

    For quick jabs and slashes, probably, but in chiv there is none of that, just power swings.



  • Who knows what a power swing is. You can move a sword as fast as you can move your hands. The faster you move your hands the more power behind them. You can land any kind of strike with your own maximum power in the time it takes you to punch because that’s the movement your body is making. This game treats swords like super heavy baseball beats which you swing around in arcs really slowly.



  • Bodkins and crossbow reloads are fine.

    Claymore could probably get a slight speed reduction. I perfer the greatsword over the claymore and I don’t really have any particular problems dealing with it.

    In real life you would be able to swing a two handed sword almost as fast as a one handed. And you would be able to combo it better as you have more control over the weapon.

    And orlboy youdo realise that the name of a V shaped hilt Scottish longsword is called a claymore.



  • @lemonater47:

    In real life you would be able to swing a two handed sword almost as fast as a one handed. And you would be able to combo it better as you have more control over the weapon.

    You’d be able to move it faster as you have twice the amount of hands on it.

    @lemonater47:

    And orlboy youdo realise that the name of a V shaped hilt Scottish longsword is called a claymore.

    This is a misnomer. And please don’t link me to Wikipedia. This is a claymore http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/103 … DC7AB9FEA0
    From ‘claidheamh mor’, “big sword”. It’s used to differentiate between the basket hilted broad sword from the small sword, ‘claidheamh beg’. The longsword with a Scottish styled hilt represented in the game would have been called claidheamh da laidbh, “two-handed sword”, but never claymore. Bear in mind you will find many authors arguing the opposite but they usually go with the argument that “it’s in Encyclopaedia Britannica so it must be true”. Just because a misnomer has lapsed into modern usage and is thus included in modern dictionaries and encyclopaedias doesn’t mean it’s correct, but this is all very off topic isn’t it?



  • I’ll think I’ll believe Wikipedia more than an auction site.



  • @Jstorm:

    @christobass:

    I am currently playing a few hours of chivalry everyday. so, i love this game. but i have to agree with this quote on the steam forums:
    There are so many bullshit “tactics” in this game that are REALLY riding the line between legitimate and exploitative. When I got the game, I thought it was a lot of fun, but after playing it for quite some time and observing these mechanics in countless duels, the game just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that to keep up you’re forced to use shit tactics and animation exploits.

    This comment is out of place and the “exploits” I know you’re thinking of are staying in the game because it gives more control to the player and don’t fight me on this because that has been stated by developers of the game. Heck, drags are even a loading screen tip as “real time strikes”.

    Would you consider the duck/face down overhead that does insta-damage as one of those exploits that is considered okay? If so, I don’t even know what to think. Dragging is fine, it can be kind of cheap, but you can learn how to counter it. The insta-hit overhead on the other hand, that is a bit tougher to deal with.



  • @lemonater47:

    I’ll think I’ll believe Wikipedia more than an auction site.

    I simply linked the first picture I found on google images after typing “claymore basket”. I’ll believe real life historians and authorities such as Claude Blair and Mike Loades more than Wikipedia.



  • @locuststar:

    @Jstorm:

    @christobass:

    I am currently playing a few hours of chivalry everyday. so, i love this game. but i have to agree with this quote on the steam forums:
    There are so many bullshit “tactics” in this game that are REALLY riding the line between legitimate and exploitative. When I got the game, I thought it was a lot of fun, but after playing it for quite some time and observing these mechanics in countless duels, the game just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that to keep up you’re forced to use shit tactics and animation exploits.

    This comment is out of place and the “exploits” I know you’re thinking of are staying in the game because it gives more control to the player and don’t fight me on this because that has been stated by developers of the game. Heck, drags are even a loading screen tip as “real time strikes”.

    Would you consider the duck/face down overhead that does insta-damage as one of those exploits that is considered okay? If so, I don’t even know what to think. Dragging is fine, it can be kind of cheap, but you can learn how to counter it. The insta-hit overhead on the other hand, that is a bit tougher to deal with.

    An accelerated attack is a drag. When you say drag it means decelerated or accelerated, that includes reverse OHs and yes TBS has stated all forms of drags simply give more control to the player and open up more possibilities. And I honestly don’t see how accelerated attacks are cheap. They are what the name sugests… accelerated attacks, plain and simple. Arcadey or realistic it doesn’t matter. This game is not balanced after realism because if it were the game would be nearly 100% different.



  • @Orkboy:

    Who knows what a power swing is. You can move a sword as fast as you can move your hands. The faster you move your hands the more power behind them. You can land any kind of strike with your own maximum power in the time it takes you to punch because that’s the movement your body is making. This game treats swords like super heavy baseball beats which you swing around in arcs really slowly.

    That’s untrue. The claymore is fast, even the great sword is fast-ish. Great swords i’d seen at an exhibit weighed in at 7.9kg…… i thought that was light, but still its going to take some effort to swing.



  • @giantyak:

    @Orkboy:

    Who knows what a power swing is. You can move a sword as fast as you can move your hands. The faster you move your hands the more power behind them. You can land any kind of strike with your own maximum power in the time it takes you to punch because that’s the movement your body is making. This game treats swords like super heavy baseball beats which you swing around in arcs really slowly.

    That’s untrue. The claymore is fast, even the great sword is fast-ish. Great swords i’d seen at an exhibit weighed in at 7.9kg…… i thought that was light, but still its going to take some effort to swing.

    What you were looking at in those exhibitions were ceremonial swords, bearing swords or state swords, etc. Not swords designed for combat. 4kg is at the upper limit of a two handed sword’s weight, with some very rare exceptions. All swords are definitely far too slow in this game but that’s fine, it’d be impossible to simulate anything close to real life.

    Here’s a video of two guys practicing controlled longsword techniques. If that’s the speed of a longsword during a controlled drill, you can imagine what it’s like during competitive sparring, let alone actual life or death fighting.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9A … ata_player



  • @Orkboy:

    ….
    What you were looking at in those exhibitions were ceremonial swords, bearing swords or state swords, etc. Not swords designed for combat. 4kg is at the upper limit of a two handed sword’s weight, with some very rare exceptions. All swords are definitely far too slow in this game but that’s fine, it’d be impossible to simulate anything close to real life.

    Yes, you know what i saw….
    I was at a traveling museum for the worlds largest museum of medieval articles.

    @Orkboy:

    ….
    What you were looking at in those exhibitions were ceremonial swords…

    That’s what they told me when i was 6 at the tower of london lol. I dare say the ones at the tower of London were ceremonial, but these ones i’m talking about aren’t.

    Its ok though, i bought the book so i have a credible source for my information. I’ll dig it up when i can.



  • I know what you saw were ceremonial swords because you described them as such. 8kg is out of the average weight range for a functional combat sword but well within the range of a ceremonial sword. The fact that you said great sword makes me think you were looking at paratschwerte, not battlefield swords.

    Do you mind sharing the name of the book you’ve bought?



  • We are going a bit off topic now…
    The thread is about the gamebalance and not the realism.
    Make the game realistic and it will be unbalanced.
    Everyone would be playing knight because he’s nearly impossible to kill with bladed weapons then.

    And also I don’t think that 4kg was the upper limit of twohanded weapons.
    And you are always talking about “longswords”. Maybe it’s a kind of translation issue, but in German a “Langschwert”(german for longsword) is not a twohanded sword. It’s a long sword that’s still well usable in one hand. If you wanted to use it in two hands, nothing would stop you from that, but it was usually used in one hand. And no, I’m not talking about bastard swords. As far as I know bastard swords are swords that are much longer than onehanded swords, but STILL not too heavy to be used in one hand. They were like shorter and lighter twohanders.
    And what you guys forget is that the swingspeed of the twohanded swords in chivalry isnt that much slower than the swingspeed of the onehanded. It’s the windups that are much longer. And in my opinion that’s realistic. The heavier the sword, the longer it takes to wind up.

    And now I got off topic, too :/ Look what you do to me guys. :D

    Well anyways, back to topic:
    In my opinion the claymore should be changed as quickly as possible. It’s just unbalanced. Make every twohanded weapon faster, or make the claymore shorter and weaker.

    It two-stabs vanguards, while being only SLIGHTLY shorter than the greatsword. The difference in range between the greatsword and the claymore is TINY. Sometimes I also feel like getting outranged by the claymore. We both don’t move. We do a slash. Mine misses him and he hits me. Weird.
    But that may also be desync or stuff like that, I don’t know.

    If the claymore was a bit slower, I think it’d be balanced. It has slightly lower damage and reach than greatsword, so it should be slightly faster. BUT NOT AS FAST AS A BROADSWORD. I mean… come on!
    Yeah it’s not exactly as fast as the broadsword but the difference isnt big here too.
    The claymore is like a mix of greatsword and broadsword.

    And what I don’t understand is: People complain about the knight’s bearded axe, but not about the claymore. I think that axe is far more balanced than the claymore. Yes, it’s fast for an axe. But people: It’s short! And the damage isn’t that high. I can’t remember being twohitted by it.
    The bearded axe of the knight is easily fought by outranging. And onehanded weapons shouldn’t have that big problems with it, too, thanks to the axe’s low range.

    In my opinion the claymore can’t stay as it is now. Period. It’s bugged AND OP. Two in one. Pretty cool for the beginners, yes. I saw lvl <10 guys owning lvl 40+ guys with it. Well maybe we shouldn’t trust the ranks that much, but it looks kinda weird. It’s also funny to see a feint but get hit. Only happened to me when fighting a claymore guy so far (post patch - Prepatch it happened with nearly any weapon).

    I think the claymore was a weapon before it got changed. Now it’s some kind of magic staff. Why? The stab looks pretty magic. You are clearly out of range, but you get the damage. Like a wizard pointing his staff at you and killing you.

    In most battles I see the claymore users running around like high-ranged maa. LMB spam, interrupting everyones attacks. But the difference: The maa can do this to one guy at a time, while the claymore users are interrupting 2 to 3 people at once thanks to the range.

    I usually only get claymore users killed by damagetrading. But it’s risky because they can twohit me too and it only works against bad players. Yeah and the even worse players are even killable without getting damage yourself.

    The claymore is my piece of hate. I try to be silent in-game. I try not to blame the players but TBS for it. It’s TBS that unbalanced the weapon. And it’s the players’ free choice what weapon they use.

    All I can do is not accepting duels with claymore users.
    But that’s not possible in other gamemodes.



  • @Peter:


    And also I don’t think that 4kg was the upper limit of twohanded weapons.
    And you are always talking about “longswords”. Maybe it’s a kind of translation issue, but in German a “Langschwert”(german for longsword) is not a twohanded sword. It’s a long sword that’s still well usable in one hand. If you wanted to use it in two hands, nothing would stop you from that, but it was usually used in one hand. And no, I’m not talking about bastard swords. As far as I know bastard swords are swords that are much longer than onehanded swords, but STILL not too heavy to be used in one hand. They were like shorter and lighter twohanders.
    And what you guys forget is that the swingspeed of the twohanded swords in chivalry isnt that much slower than the swingspeed of the onehanded. It’s the windups that are much longer. And in my opinion that’s realistic. The heavier the sword, the longer it takes to wind up.

    One last off topic post from me and then I’ll be on my best behaviour.
    4kg is certainly above average weight for both longswords and great swords/two handed swords. There’s a bit of confusion in your post. Longswords and bastard swords are essentially the same thing, they’re swords that can be wielded with one or two hands. A longsword only has a slightly longer blade than a single handed sword, a few inches only, however the grip is longer to allow two hands to be used. A true two handed sword or great sword, like the renaissance swords used by the landsknechte, called in the game zweihänder, still did not weigh much more on average than 3kg, and anything above 4kg is definitely either for a ceremonial purpose or particularly rare.
    Finally, regarding wind ups, there are no wind ups before an attack in real sword fighting, every movement is completely forward. Take a look at that video I linked to. Pretty much every detail in Chivalry is completely unrealistic, but that’s fine, I don’t think realistic sword fighting is even remotely possible in a video game.

    Concerning balance, why slow down the claymore? Why not speed up other weapons to match the claymore? I think faster combat is more exciting.



  • @Peter:


    If the claymore was a bit slower, I think it’d be balanced. It has slightly lower damage and reach than greatsword, so it should be slightly faster. BUT NOT AS FAST AS A BROADSWORD. I mean… come on!
    Yeah it’s not exactly as fast as the broadsword but the difference isnt big here too.
    The claymore is like a mix of greatsword and broadsword.

    And what I don’t understand is: People complain about the knight’s bearded axe, but not about the claymore. I think that axe is far more balanced than the claymore. Yes, it’s fast for an axe. But people: It’s short! And the damage isn’t that high. I can’t remember being twohitted by it.
    The bearded axe of the knight is easily fought by outranging. And onehanded weapons shouldn’t have that big problems with it, too, thanks to the axe’s low range.

    The claymore is manageable to fight against, but it highly depends on the ‘loadout’ your using and its a small list to pick from if you want to be reliably effective. I think if the claymore was slightly less dragable it’d go a long way to balance it and it may not be necessary to change its speed (Remember that how dragable it is influences how fast it is).

    I agree with you about the bearded axe as it is scary fast, but then it should be. It is a wood shaft with a specialised, lightened blade and its range is short in game so its balanced.

    @Peter:


    I usually only get claymore users killed by damagetrading. But it’s risky because they can twohit me too and it only works against bad players. Yeah and the even worse players are even killable without getting damage yourself…

    Try and get closer in and stay right up against their face, its risky but effective. The hardest part is keeping them directly in front of you so you can face straight at them, but if you can do that parrying is easier and then you can fast kick or shield bash and/or riposte. Oh and another thing, don’t play on third person servers if you can help it.

    @Orkboy:

    …Concerning…

    Don’t worry i’ll clear everything up for you when i find my book.



  • Anyone who has not actually swung a sword in real life cannot possibly hope to comment on the realism of a game. The game’s mechanics are fine because they are gamey and designed in a certain way. Until we can have completely lagless play and input, a proper swordfighting simulator is off the table, especially for online play, and without lag you’d need the necessary reflexes and knowledged to actually, you know, swordfight.

    For the game to be even remotely accessible, it has to be gamey and predictable. The game clearly can’t even handle very fast swings, if you look at the Claymore and speedhackers as an example. The desyncs are bad and get more severe the faster your weapon is.



  • @Orkboy:

    @Peter:


    And also I don’t think that 4kg was the upper limit of twohanded weapons.
    And you are always talking about “longswords”. Maybe it’s a kind of translation issue, but in German a “Langschwert”(german for longsword) is not a twohanded sword. It’s a long sword that’s still well usable in one hand. If you wanted to use it in two hands, nothing would stop you from that, but it was usually used in one hand. And no, I’m not talking about bastard swords. As far as I know bastard swords are swords that are much longer than onehanded swords, but STILL not too heavy to be used in one hand. They were like shorter and lighter twohanders.
    And what you guys forget is that the swingspeed of the twohanded swords in chivalry isnt that much slower than the swingspeed of the onehanded. It’s the windups that are much longer. And in my opinion that’s realistic. The heavier the sword, the longer it takes to wind up.

    One last off topic post from me and then I’ll be on my best behaviour.
    4kg is certainly above average weight for both longswords and great swords/two handed swords. There’s a bit of confusion in your post. Longswords and bastard swords are essentially the same thing, they’re swords that can be wielded with one or two hands. A longsword only has a slightly longer blade than a single handed sword, a few inches only, however the grip is longer to allow two hands to be used. A true two handed sword or great sword, like the renaissance swords used by the landsknechte, called in the game zweihänder, still did not weigh much more on average than 3kg, and anything above 4kg is definitely either for a ceremonial purpose or particularly rare.
    Finally, regarding wind ups, there are no wind ups before an attack in real sword fighting, every movement is completely forward. Take a look at that video I linked to. Pretty much every detail in Chivalry is completely unrealistic, but that’s fine, I don’t think realistic sword fighting is even remotely possible in a video game.

    Concerning balance, why slow down the claymore? Why not speed up other weapons to match the claymore? I think faster combat is more exciting.

    I still can’t believe that such a big, long piece of steel is that light. I mean… even my little dog is heavier than that! And It’s a Zwergschnauzer! Not a really big dog.

    I agree with you that fast combat is really exciting. But you can also have fast combat with the greatsword, which is not even half as fast as the claymore.
    I bet speeding up all the other weapons would just give us more desync at will get the balance broken. What would the advantage of onehanders be, except for their stabs, that really need practice to be blocked effectively?



  • SPEAKING ONLY ABOUT THIS HERE GAME:

    The claymore is fast, long, and can 2 shot vanguards.

    The (knight) longsword is medium speed, medium range, and USED to be able to 2 shot vanguards, then got nerfed for being too powerful (or too popular). How was the claymore’s balancing justified?



  • @quigleyer:

    SPEAKING ONLY ABOUT THIS HERE GAME:

    The claymore is fast, long, and can 2 shot vanguards.

    The (knight) longsword is medium speed, medium range, and USED to be able to 2 shot vanguards, then got nerfed for being too powerful (or too popular). How was the claymore’s balancing justified?

    The claymore is just broken is all. This game is extremely sensitive to latency and timing, obviously. When you make weapons like the claymore and bearded axe, impossibly weird stuff is bound to happen (Desyncs, ghost swings/phantom swings, etc.).

    The Claymore is far too fast for its damage and flinch times. It does not matter that it takes 4 hits to kill a knight (The Broadsword has basically the same HTK). It is still far too fast for its range and that level of damage. These imbalances are only compounded by the myriad of animation problems when you give weapons that level of acceleration/speed.

    Tl;Dr: The claymore and bearded axe are broken. In the meta, they actually come up somewhat underpowered relative to other options. However, this game cannot handle weapon animations of a certain speed due to its extreme sensitivity to latency. It would be much better if they were both balanced more sensibly, instead of simply making one attribute ridiculous to counterbalance the other two being deficient (Speed, damage, and range).


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