Let's talk about feints



  • Hey guys!

    I’ve tried searching the forum for some genuinely open debates on feinting but it doesn’t seem to be something that’s being discussed, which is quite surprising since it seems to be the most controversial game-play mechanic Chivalry has!

    Anyway; I am completely of the belief that Chivalry would be a better game without the option to feint attacks. I have yet to see a convincing counterargument.

    One of the most common points made in defense of feints is that they are defensible on reaction. I think this is absolutely untrue, at least for some situations. If a player is mixing up their counter-attacks with feints and accelerated overheads, or with speedy one-handed weapons there is no way to defend against it. Combat is reduced to guesswork — a monotonous, 50-50 roll-of-the-dice. Shields aren’t much safer either since you can simply feint attack > kick > free hit.

    So why is this still in the game?



  • TBS said that they’ll never remove feints. And you can avoid falling for feints. By movement and on slower weapons by just waiting for the windup to end. (block after their grunt, they can’t cancel the attack then.)
    Feinting is just another way to get around a block. So if you don’t like feinting, why don’t you complain about delayed swings, too? If you are a panic blocker then you will also fall for delayed swings all the time.

    Feints have got a downside for the feinter. But people like to forget that. Stamina is now one thing you really need to watch. And feinting consumes stamina. it’s risky. If you feint some times in the fight and your enemy doesn’t fall for it, because he’s not a crybaby but someone who just learned to avoid getting feinted, he will use your low stamina to defeat you.

    Oh and you couldnt find a threat about feints? I guess you didn’t even look for them. There are MANY. Because so many players complain about it even though TBS did a great job making the feints readable and also counterable.

    If you have an opponent that feints a lot you just need to be greedy as hell. You will most likely hit him, while he is feinting.

    So my tipp on you is: Stop complaining about feinting and stop demanding it to be removed. TBS won’t. If you have ideas how feinting could be better for you, make suggestions.

    Elsewise: learn to live with them and stop flaming at everyone using them.



  • Here we go again. Bring on the inexperienced jibber jabber.

    I’ve tried searching the forum for some genuinely open debates on feinting but it doesn’t seem to be something that’s being discussed, which is quite surprising since it seems to be the most controversial game-play mechanic Chivalry has!

    How hard did you search? There are a shit ton of feint arguments.



  • Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t actually aware TBS had made an official stand on the feint situation.

    Just to be clear, I’m not “demanding” anything, nor am I “flaming” anybody for using them. I’m just asking why it’s still in the game despite myself never having encountered a valid argument for keeping it there. I still think that’s something you’ve yet to provide me with. I did genuinely use the search function for “feint” and “feints” but nothing came up.

    @Peter:

    …you can avoid falling for feints. By movement and on slower weapons by just waiting for the windup to end. (block after their grunt, they can’t cancel the attack then.)

    If you attack player and he parries you, 9/10 times no amount of movement is going to get you out of their hit-zone. You have to accept that it’s now their turn to either instantly riposte you, wait to see if you panic block then attack, kick you or feint. Even slow weapons can accelerate overhead strikes at very high speeds, so there is sometimes situations where you absolutely cannot wait till the end of their grunt to block – you’ll have to start looking upwards to deflect the incoming blow, and make a 50-50 decision on whether or not he’s going to feint. It’s these situations — where the combat is reduced to guess-work — that I think are boring and ruin the game-play.

    @Peter:

    Feinting is just another way to get around a block. So if you don’t like feinting, why don’t you complain about delayed swings, too? If you are a panic blocker then you will also fall for delayed swings all the time.

    Obviously the whole idea behind melee combat in Chivalry is to get your opponent to block when he shouldn’t. I don’t complain about delayed swings, or drags, or accelerations because all of these things take practice and “skill” to be effective, something that is commendable in any game that pits two people against each other. Whereas with feinting you can literally just press Q and get the same result. I don’t think it should be that easy.

    I don’t actually fall for feints very often (nor delayed swings), but I still think it’s completely appropriate to recognize that there are situations in this game where feints cause the combat to become a game of 50-50 chance, and it’s just not necessary when — as you just pointed out — there are plenty of other methods of causing a player to miss-time his parry.



  • It makes combat both more realistic and more versatile. I won’t go into much detail now. This was discussed so many times and people still go “mimimi - I can’t deal with this - pls remove”.

    And don’t come with “I have yet to see a convincing counterargument”. Really!

    Stop
    Being
    A


    Scrub
    That
    Demands
    Another
    Feature
    Removal

    Thank you.



  • @Evil:

    It makes combat both more realistic and more versatile. I won’t go into much detail now. This was discussed so many times and people still go “mimimi - I can’t deal with this - pls remove”.

    Please, go in to detail, that’s exactly what I’m looking for! I just don’t understand what’s so important about it. It seems like a pointless feature that just creates guess-work out of a really nice competitive game.

    @Evil:

    And don’t come with “I have yet to see a convincing counterattack”. Really!

    Stop Being A *** Scrub That Demands Another Feature Removal

    Thank you.

    What I said was counter_argument_, not attack. You see, Evil Minion, when adults have conversations they don’t usually turn into ad hominum verbal assaults; I don’t see why opening a casual discourse on a controversial topic earns me the title of “*** demanding scrub” but thankfully that’s just your opinion. Please refer to this graph for more information on how to have an adult conversation: http://imgur.com/j5cykxz



  • @KungFu:

    Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t actually aware TBS had made an official stand on the feint situation.

    Just to be clear, I’m not “demanding” anything, nor am I “flaming” anybody for using them. I’m just asking why it’s still in the game despite myself never having encountered a valid argument for keeping it there. I still think that’s something you’ve yet to provide me with. I did genuinely use the search function for “feint” and “feints” but nothing came up.

    @Peter:

    …you can avoid falling for feints. By movement and on slower weapons by just waiting for the windup to end. (block after their grunt, they can’t cancel the attack then.)

    If you attack player and he parries you, 9/10 times no amount of movement is going to get you out of their hit-zone. You have to accept that it’s now their turn to either instantly riposte you, wait to see if you panic block then attack, kick you or feint. Even slow weapons can accelerate overhead strikes at very high speeds, so there is sometimes situations where you absolutely cannot wait till the end of their grunt to block – you’ll have to start looking upwards to deflect the incoming blow, and make a 50-50 decision on whether or not he’s going to feint. It’s these situations — where the combat is reduced to guess-work — that I think are boring and ruin the game-play.

    @Peter van Parodin:

    Feinting is just another way to get around a block. So if you don’t like feinting, why don’t you complain about delayed swings, too? If you are a panic blocker then you will also fall for delayed swings all the time.

    Obviously the whole idea behind melee combat in Chivalry is to get your opponent to block when he shouldn’t. I don’t complain about delayed swings, or drags, or accelerations because all of these things take practice and “skill” to be effective, something that is commendable in any game that pits two people against each other. Whereas with feinting you can literally just press Q and get the same result. I don’t think it should be that easy.

    I don’t actually fall for feints very often (nor delayed swings), but I still think it’s completely appropriate to recognize that there are situations in this game where feints cause the combat to become a game of 50-50 chance, and it’s just not necessary when — as you just pointed out — there are plenty of other methods of causing a player to miss-time his parry.

    If your enemy does a lookdown overhead, you’ll see it. Because he LOOKS DOWN. So you can block then.

    It’s almost never a 50-50 decision.
    And actually there are other ways then getting out of their reach, even though it’s possible. It depends on the enemies weapon and on yours. If you are stupid enough to go to facehugging distance with a halberd it’s your own fault.

    Ever heard of ducking, jumping and going left/right?
    It’s a great thing you can do when you fall for a feint. Slash? Then duck or jump, depending on where the enemy aims. Stab/ overhead? Just go left or right suddenly. And a bit forward, to get to his side.He will most likely miss you.
    You won’t always be able to avoid getting successfully feinted.
    But you also won’t always be able to avoid getting killed by drags or other stuff.

    This discussion has ended for me now. Discussed too much about this already ingame… I’m tired of the big feinting-discussion. Just deal with it that Chivalry is not My little pony!



  • @KungFu:

    What I said was counter_argument_, not attack.

    Yeah corrected it my bad. Other than this I am just tired of people demanding several things to be removed. Especially if they start the same topic again and again ignoring all arguments made before. Might not be your intention but you made this impression on me. So you just ate the rage. ;-)

    Feints are a vital part of melee combat and increase both realism (as real melee fighter does this too) and your in game options a lot (by adding another dimension). As such they increase the fighting experience. They also make the game much more rewarding as you can both trick enemies into parrying or avoid getting tricked yourself. They emphasize the timing aspect of parries and break habits that would make the fight much more monotone. Feints add a deceptive element to the game and allow people to “fight dirty” if they want to. And they add more motivation namely not getting tricked again and killing this dirty bastard.^^

    As such they shouldn’t be guesswork but readable and they are to the most part. At least as weapons got a constant windup time you can get used to (the last part of windup does not allow feinting so you can train to get your parries off during this window). It gets tricky if you fight extremely close but in contrast to what some people are thinking you don’t need to facehug in melee. If you like doing so you have to live with the downsides. If you have problems with people running into facehug distance feinting a lot try to keep them away using footwork, aggression and the reach of your weapon. If you are using a short weapon replace reach with more aggression.

    Just as notorious turtles (very defensive players) complain about feinters and notorious berserkers (very aggressive players) complain about turtling, notorious feinters complain about attack spammers. Guess why…



  • @Peter:

    If your enemy does a lookdown overhead, you’ll see it. Because he LOOKS DOWN. So you can block then.

    No you can’t because the enemy can also do a look-down feint. You would have to guess whether or not to parry at that point. This is a 50/50 right here, and it’s one that can be used very regularly. Riposte stab is also another situation where it’s practically 50/50.

    Having good movement might be able to save you from average-joe-feinter, but if you’re fighting a really good player — somebody with fantastic mouse control who will stay on you when you’re in range no matter how much you move — movement simply will not save you from that free hit.

    @Peter:

    You won’t always be able to avoid getting successfully feinted. But you also won’t always be able to avoid getting killed by drags or other stuff.

    The difference is that avoiding drags and other stuff is a rewarding skill that can be trained and maintained. Feinting, creates situations that reduce fights to a matter of chance (I know you don’t seem to believe that, but it is a fact.)

    It’s a bit like having to roll an even number on a dice for your piece to be granted a kill in chess. It adds an element of guesswork to something that doesn’t require it and would (in my opinion) be better off without it.

    Do you honestly think Chivalry would be less skill-rewarding, less fun, and less balanced if they removed feints? I just don’t see it.



  • @Evil:

    Other than this I am just tired of people demanding several things to be removed. Especially if they start the same topic again and again ignoring all arguments made before.

    You are not obligated to read this particular thread nor reply to it so you don’t really have any right to be angry over anybody wanting to debate something. I explained before that I did try to search for similar topics but unfortunately nothing came up. Feinting seems to be a matter of opinion and when it comes to matters of opinion I think it’s never unhealthy to discuss why we think what, and there’s no reason we can’t do that in a civil manner.

    @Evil:

    Feints are a vital part of melee combat

    The game functions perfectly well (arguably better) when feints aren’t used. You just need to watch any two skilled players duel without feints to see that there is nothing vital about it.

    @Evil:

    increases realism

    I’ve never actually seen anybody feint in any sort of sword fight or martial arts ever. Still, just because something is realistic does not mean it creates a better game; you couldn’t sprint around swinging a maul with a javelin stuck through your chest, so should we make all javelins one hit? No, because that wouldn’t be fun or balanced.

    @Evil:

    increases your in game options a lot

    Is it worth it though? If it can diminish a good competitive fight into a matter of chance, do we really want that extra dimension? Especially if the game functions just fine without that extra dimension?

    @Evil:

    They also make the game much more rewarding as you can both trick enemies into parrying or avoid getting tricked yourself.

    Of course there are situations where feinting and avoiding feints is an admirable skill. But the entire game functions around tricking your opponent and making him parry, and avoiding the same thing happening to you. This is not something unique to feints, and it would still be there without them, so I don’t see why it’s worth keeping them if it can create 50/50 situations; situations in which no amount of skill will reward you with decreased odds.

    @Evil:

    They emphasize the timing aspect of parries

    If you were to ask somebody who doesn’t play this game to watch two people fight without feints; using delays, accelerations, jumps etc, and then to watch two people who like to feint a lot fight, do you really think they would say the players using feints had a fight that had more emphasis on timing?

    @Evil:

    …and break habits that would make the fight much more monotone

    There are literally hundreds of ways to break habits and to punish predictability without using feints. Once again, if the same result can be achieved without feinting, is it worth the 50/50 situations?

    @Evil:

    Feints add a deceptive element to the game and allow people to “fight dirty” if they want to.

    There are plenty of other ways to be deceptive; jumping, turning, crouching, leaning. All of which can be achieved and defended with practiced skill.

    @Evil:

    As such they shouldn’t be guesswork but readable and they are to the most part.

    This my point exactly. If they add nothing to the game that isn’t already there, yet they create situations that diminish the game-play into a matter of chance, is it really worth keeping them?

    @Evil:

    At least as weapons got a constant windup time you can get used to (the last part of windup does not allow feinting so you can train to get your parries off during this window). It gets tricky if you fight extremely close but in contrast to what some people are thinking you don’t need to facehug in melee. If you like doing so you have to live with the downsides. If you have problems with people running into facehug distance feinting a lot try to keep them away using footwork, aggression and the reach of your weapon. If you are using a short weapon replace reach with more aggression.

    Look, it doesn’t matter how many tips you give me. I could hop on a server with you right now and repeatedly put you in a situation where you had to guess whether or not I was going to feint. It’s very easy to create those situations in a duel. I should not be able to do this and I still think the game would better if I couldn’t.



  • @KungFu:

    @Evil:

    Other than this I am just tired of people demanding several things to be removed. Especially if they start the same topic again and again ignoring all arguments made before.

    You are not obligated to read this particular thread nor reply to it so you don’t really have any right to be angry over anybody wanting to debate something. I explained before that I did try to search for similar topics but unfortunately nothing came up. Feinting seems to be a matter of opinion and when it comes to matters of opinion I think it’s never unhealthy to discuss why we think what, and there’s no reason we can’t do that in a civil manner.

    @Evil Minion:

    Feints are a vital part of melee combat

    The game functions perfectly well (arguably better) when feints aren’t used. You just need to watch any two skilled players duel without feints to see that there is nothing vital about it.

    @Evil:

    increases realism

    I’ve never actually seen anybody feint in any sort of sword fight or martial arts ever. Still, just because something is realistic does not mean it creates a better game; you couldn’t sprint around swinging a maul with a javelin stuck through your chest, so should we make all javelins one hit? No, because that wouldn’t be fun or balanced.

    @Evil:

    increases your in game options a lot

    Is it worth it though? If it can diminish a good competitive fight into a matter of chance, do we really want that extra dimension? Especially if the game functions just fine without that extra dimension?

    @Evil:

    They also make the game much more rewarding as you can both trick enemies into parrying or avoid getting tricked yourself.

    Of course there are situations where feinting and avoiding feints is an admirable skill. But the entire game functions around tricking your opponent and making him parry, and avoiding the same thing happening to you. This is not something unique to feints, and it would still be there without them, so I don’t see why it’s worth keeping them if it can create 50/50 situations; situations in which no amount of skill will reward you with decreased odds.

    @Evil:

    They emphasize the timing aspect of parries

    If you were to ask somebody who doesn’t play this game to watch two people fight without feints; using delays, accelerations, jumps etc, and then to watch two people who like to feint a lot fight, do you really think they would say the players using feints had a fight that had more emphasis on timing?

    @Evil:

    …and break habits that would make the fight much more monotone

    There are literally hundreds of ways to break habits and to punish predictability without using feints. Once again, if the same result can be achieved without feinting, is it worth the 50/50 situations?

    @Evil:

    Feints add a deceptive element to the game and allow people to “fight dirty” if they want to.

    There are plenty of other ways to be deceptive; jumping, turning, crouching, leaning. All of which can be achieved and defended with practiced skill.

    @Evil:

    As such they shouldn’t be guesswork but readable and they are to the most part.

    This my point exactly. If they add nothing to the game that isn’t already there, yet they create situations that diminish the game-play into a matter of chance, is it really worth keeping them?

    @Evil:

    At least as weapons got a constant windup time you can get used to (the last part of windup does not allow feinting so you can train to get your parries off during this window). It gets tricky if you fight extremely close but in contrast to what some people are thinking you don’t need to facehug in melee. If you like doing so you have to live with the downsides. If you have problems with people running into facehug distance feinting a lot try to keep them away using footwork, aggression and the reach of your weapon. If you are using a short weapon replace reach with more aggression.

    Look, it doesn’t matter how many tips you give me. I could hop on a server with you right now and repeatedly put you in a situation where you had to guess whether or not I was going to feint. It’s very easy to create those situations in a duel. I should not be able to do this and I still think the game would better if I couldn’t.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18423053/Noo….gif



  • Take out feints now and the game will be a parry festival. Guaranteed. Footwork doesn’t get rewarded like it used to. I’m not even a big fan of feints but I know it’s a bad idea to remove them now.



  • You don’t see feints in martial arts because you rarely swing, stop, and continue in the same swing.

    In martial arts, a feint is most often a movement, maybe a thrust, directed at, let’s say… the leg, that is redirected up into the chest (an extreme example).

    So, if they focused more on aiming blocks and attacks (I’m not griefing TB, this is hypothetical), then feints would maybe be a bit more realistic.

    hit, parry, hit, parry, hit, parry, hit, parry…

    Feinting against a nub will get your ass killed, usually. They swing with reckless abandon, and they tend to tell parrying to f* right off. Or they parry too late, and your beautiful feint-followup combo was for naught.

    See my signature.



  • @Carolean:

    You don’t see feints in martial arts because you rarely swing, stop, and continue in the same swing.

    In martial arts, a feint is most often a movement, maybe a thrust, directed at, let’s say… the leg, that is redirected up into the chest (an extreme example).

    So, if they focused more on aiming blocks and attacks (I’m not griefing TB, this is hypothetical), then feints would maybe be a bit more realistic.

    hit, parry, hit, parry, hit, parry, hit, parry…

    Feinting against a nub will get your ass killed, usually. They swing with reckless abandon, and they tend to tell parrying to f* right off. Or they parry too late, and your beautiful feint-followup combo was for naught.

    See my signature.

    Yeah being a noob is the best defence against feints.

    I find that using a spear I can easily push say a feinting MAA back if I wind up and I know he’s a feinter. I usually don’t flinch him but as long as he isn’t too close I push him outta range and do damage.

    Otherwise you just have to parry late.



  • feints can avoid hit trading by via feint then a parry. if you see that someone in swinging at the same time as you and you both will hit, instead of taking the hit you can decide to cancel your attack and parry.

    feinting (sometimes) helps you not to hit teammates if you see them come into the zone of your strike rather than trying to jerk your mouse to the floor, or do a 180, etc.

    feints get around parries, plain and simple… and especially with the addition of the panic/combo parries, they’re pretty necessary, unless you want to have a 10-15 parry counter battle for stamina, or you want to do intense drags.

    they’re actually a lot more readable now at least at a little distance, as long as you can see the arms and shoulders you are good. If they get closer than that and feint its a bit harder but they’re needed in a lot of scenarios.



  • Yeah i agree with this guy. There are way too many situations where feints just lead to a coin toss. Even with the recent nerfs close range small weapons are impossible to react to. Trying to parry a MAA/knight who’s stabbing you at close range with a broadsword and occasionally parries is hell. The attacks are so fast if you don’t parry as soon as you can it’ll hit you.

    I think that they should make better ways of getting around parries. Things like removing panic parries, which encourages footwork, discourages swinging wildly, and gives the game a nicer pace. Maybe giving every class a sidestep that has the same effect and difficulty as ducking but works for stabs and overheads.



  • At this point I’d only say it’s mostly a problem against fast weapons. Reacting to someone feinting a Claymore or a fast 1 hander for example seems to be a lot more of a nightmare than someone feinting with a Maul or Zweihander. If you ‘wait’ for the real hit you’ll probably be hit before you even see it.

    Maybe if you’re playing on a LAN it might be different I dunno, but with such small timeframes you get to react in surely various pings are gonna mess that up.

    I’m not a fan of guesswork, but I don’t think feints should be removed. Just needs some tweaks on the faster weapons I think.

    I don’t tend to use feints myself other than to cancel an attack that’s going nowhere (or into a teammate). In combat it does seem to be a free hit in most cases and I much prefer fights that use positioning, timing, movement, ducking, accelerations/drags etc. Feints just seem to skip to the end.

    IMO



  • THEY ALREADY GOT NERFED PEOPLE… NO MORE CRYING PLZ

    do a search on feints… you’ll see threads with like 100 pages of responses… go read those.

    stop this before it gets out of hand… it’s been discussed on the forums in EVERY FUCKING WAY IMAGINABLE.

    use the forum search, its that little magnifying glass up there… ^^^ type “feint”.



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    THEY ALREADY GOT NERFED PEOPLE… NO MORE CRYING PLZ

    do a search on feints… you’ll see threads with like 100 pages of responses… go read those.

    stop this before it gets out of hand… it’s been discussed on the forums in EVERY FUCKING WAY IMAGINABLE.

    use the forum search, its that little magnifying glass up there… ^^^ type “feint”.

    Yeah it got nerfed, but it’s still a problem with faster weapons. Most of the feint arguments usually devolve into people insulting each other without really reaching any good conclusion (like pretty much every other argument on this forum).

    Think about it this way. This is an argument discussed so much the search engine can’t handle it. People come in to complain about it constantly and a lot of people refuse to use it and call others out on it ingame. When people whine about a combat mechanic that’s not really unfair, eventually the whining stops because people learn how to beat it. Either they learn strategies from people on the forums, from people ingame, or figure it out on their own. That hasn’t happened with feints yet. Instead people just stopped using it.

    Torn Banner said they aren’t going to remove it from chivalry, but if Chivalry 2 ever comes out i hope they think about it. Maybe add something different, like grappling, which is a major part of actual medieval warfare. Instead of having to feint, imagine predicting the enemy attack/parry and disarming them.



  • when you duel alot, the game really fucking comes down to rock paper siccors, its just bluffing and gambling.

    If you want a game to play that will reward for skillfull play, go play starcraft or battlefield.


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