Noob knight questioning usefulness of 1H + shield.



  • I’ve been playing for a few days and I’ve settled on Messer + Tower Shield as my main setup. I like the defense it offers, but when I block a 2H weapon, it seems like I get pushed too far back to punish. Even if I can close the distance, it seems like my attack gets parried or I end up eating an attach that was queued up. This makes it feel like I’m getting bullied by people who spam attack my shield with a 2H weapon until I run out of stamina. Am I imagining this or am I doing something wrong? What should I be doing against 2H vanguards and knights?



  • When fighting with 1H weapons you need to get close in their face close. I think you will find if you get close enough the knock back on 2H weapons won’t be as bad. Also the shield you are using doesn’t help your course… Try using the kite shield you might like it for its faster swing and movement rates.



  • When using shield there are a few things one must remember:

    • You can’t block forever. The kickbacks (from the vanguard) and shield will eat your stamina (that’s why the flail is near useless right now) while forcing you to come up once more, leaving you with even less stamina (attacks on shield cost no stamina). Ideally you want to block only to get into position to attack.

    • Your shield matters: with the biggest shield you should aim at teaming up and be up front block swings so your teammate can get a clear hit. With kite shield you’ll do much better if you want to be more reactive and you can still add to the shieldwall or protect teammates.

    • You can take long weapons or short, but fast ones. Short weapons can be somewhat mitigated by footwork while long weapons benefit from footwork while requiring more space, they also got very potent stab and can hit multiple opponents in worst-case scenario.



  • Using a shield takes some getting used to.

    Kite shield seems to block the most. Though not that great against an archer who knows what he’s doing.

    I know a very good kite shield longsword knight. He is relentless and relies on unpredictability to win. Though he never feints. He finds them unfair so doesn’t use them.

    All his attacks are perfectly blockable. You just don’t know what he’s gonna do.

    I win by mimicking others that are better than me. There’s enough one trick ponies out there to make me a decent jack of all trades.

    To be an effective shield knight you have to be very aggressive. Most people with a shield try to be defensive. Its a bad idea. People have a big thing to hide under so they do it. Don’t have that mentality. Use a shield like a parry. Don’t hold it up expecting them to attack. Only bring it up when they are swinging. After the windup. Also stay close to your enemy.

    Try and learn how to do jump attacks and mouse drags. Jump attacks are more complicated than they sound. Mouse dragging is easier.



  • Drop the shield until you know how to play effectively without one. Shields are nothing but archer cover with the recent patches, so get the handle down on how ripostes work and parrying before you try to learn how to use a shield. Shields are bad right now for melee, unless like others said you utilize teamwork to block attacks for others. Without ripostes, it can be very difficult to get close enough to a vanguard, who will just eat your stamina off your shield way before he runs out of stamina. I love the messer 1h and shield, but you should put the shield on your back and use the messer 1h for awhile. It’ll let you get used to the messer 1h without having to gimp your self with a shield. The ripostes are invaluable. Don’t be afraid to stab with the messer, either. As others said don’t fall into a turtle playstyle, and only put up your shield like a parry so you don’t get kicked.

    I do recommend dropping the tower for the kite, as well.



  • Great info so far. Much appreciated.

    I have a couple more questions.

    Is there a reason to choose the warhammer over the messer that I’m not seeing? It doesn’t seem to do enough damage to compensate for its shortcomings (slow, short range, weak stab).

    How do the bastard swords stack up to each other in general? On paper (I’m using the Google spreadsheet), the messer has the worst range and slowest speed, but I’m not noticing a big difference in game. What I am noticing is the increased slash and overhead damage, but sometimes I feel like I need a better stab since that seems to be the go-to punish a lot of the time (best range? + fastest attack) and the safest way to poke someone in a group without risking friendly fire. Is the SoW’s stab good enough to compensate for its weaker slash and overhead or would the longsword be a better choice since it seems more balanced overall than SoW?



  • Tower has its uses -

    Wont get stam drained too easily cus it absorbs nicely, has massive arrow protection, has a more effective shield tap and can be used to hide stabs really well.

    The stab hiding can be especially effective if combined with diagonal movements to alter the shield positioning and with feints and shield tapping it can be a nightmare 1v1.

    But yeah, overall its dogshit, just like all the shitty shields.



  • Recently the longsword and sword of war were unjustly nerfed, as they were almost perfectly balanced before. The messer was buffed longside those nerfs, so the messer is just completely superior in every way now outside slightly less range which is nothing compared to the other superior stats it has over the other two. The messer’s only fault before its buff was its bad recovery, which means nothing now since you can parry in recovery, it didn’t need the buffs on top of it. But since the longsword and SoW nerfs, they’re useless for everything in every situation (inb4 clan battles which are pointless since competitive scene died with recent patches). Messer is superior in every way. I still main longsword, SoW, and messer and use them all rather equally. Messer is the only viable choice.

    The war hammer was pretty solid before these patches as well since it does amazing damage for its speed and reach as a 1h, and its stab is actually quite useful. The problem is its trash against every class except other knights now and even then it can be risky to use against certain knight weapons, because the game removed combo feint to parry and forward chase mechanic which were how you could use the war hammer’s strengths effectively. It has amazing damage and mouse drags on its left clicks that get around shields no problem, and easily 2 shots knights consistently with 2 left clicks, as well as vanguards, MaAs and archers. But the problem is the knockback and stamina drain and footwork makes it really difficult for the war hammer to get anything done with these patches. The war hammer has great stats, but with the fundamental changes its difficult to use. That may just be because I haven’t been able to adapt to the war hammer with these changes and I’m just having difficulty finding the proper way to use it now, though.

    The longsword and SoW however have no place any more. The messer is the only bastard sword since the nerfs.



  • @SOC:

    The longsword and SoW however have no place any more. The messer is the only bastard sword since the nerfs.

    Ya know, I’ve been have SIGNIFICANT luck with the longsword as a 1 handed weapon (new guy, press 3 when you have sword and shield out to one hand it without a shield). I’m not entirely sure if it’s just because people aren’t used to it- but it has decent dragging ability and killer stab that outranges the sidearms fairly well. It might just be my thing, but I wouldn’t completely discount the LS yet.

    But I do duel a lot. The 1 handed longsword has no real crowd control ability.



  • Don’t listen to SOC about the longsword; I’m a knight that mains longsword 2H and I still kick ass with it. It’s about 30% longer than the messer and it’s faster as well, while still having acceptable hits to kill on the three lighter classes when used 2 handed. One overhead headshot kills an archer. Two slashes kills a MAA. Stab-overhead combo kills a vanguard IF one of them is a headshot, otherwise just do a charged kick (hold F) to finish him off. That last situation is post-nerf; you used to be able to stab-overhead and kill a vanguard with two torso hits. With the longest weapon the knight has. Perfectly balanced… right…

    The only issue is that it’s pretty awful against other knights, but you can just pick a blunt secondary like the flanged mace or morning star and switch to that.



  • @SOC:

    Recently the longsword and sword of war were unjustly nerfed, as they were almost perfectly balanced before. The messer was buffed longside those nerfs, so the messer is just completely superior in every way now outside slightly less range which is nothing compared to the other superior stats it has over the other two. The messer’s only fault before its buff was its bad recovery, which means nothing now since you can parry in recovery, it didn’t need the buffs on top of it. But since the longsword and SoW nerfs, they’re useless for everything in every situation (inb4 clan battles which are pointless since competitive scene died with recent patches). Messer is superior in every way. I still main longsword, SoW, and messer and use them all rather equally. Messer is the only viable choice.

    The war hammer was pretty solid before these patches as well since it does amazing damage for its speed and reach as a 1h, and its stab is actually quite useful. The problem is its trash against every class except other knights now and even then it can be risky to use against certain knight weapons, because the game removed combo feint to parry and forward chase mechanic which were how you could use the war hammer’s strengths effectively. It has amazing damage and mouse drags on its left clicks that get around shields no problem, and easily 2 shots knights consistently with 2 left clicks, as well as vanguards, MaAs and archers. But the problem is the knockback and stamina drain and footwork makes it really difficult for the war hammer to get anything done with these patches. The war hammer has great stats, but with the fundamental changes its difficult to use. That may just be because I haven’t been able to adapt to the war hammer with these changes and I’m just having difficulty finding the proper way to use it now, though.

    The longsword and SoW however have no place any more. The messer is the only bastard sword since the nerfs.

    I really don’t know why everybody says that the longsword is bad now. Didn’t play the SoW but actually I love the longsword. Usually I’m vanguard but some servers have a vanguard limit, so I play knight then. The longsword has speed and reach. But not too much of it. I love it. Played with it for the first time and kicked ass. But maybe my opponents just were bad.



  • I can still own in duels with the longsword, too. I still use it a ton both 2h and 1h. But the range difference between longsword and messer isn’t worth the amount of damage you sacrifice, especially with how slow longsword is now with nerfs. The longsword is still a great duel weapon, but the messer will out perform it in everywhere. Just because you can rape with the falchion in duels doesn’t mean it’s comparable to the broad sword.

    You will consistently do better in any non duel pub with the messer than the longsword, is the point I was trying to make. In srs duels, I still think messer wins hands down. It can oneshot archers with a left click to their head both 2h and 1h now, yet I don’t see any charts supporting that so I don’t trust charts any more. It can two shot vanguards very consistently as well, and it’s very easy to land head hits with left clicks on the messer. Honestly the overhead + slash combo the messer offers is a lot better than the overhead stab combo from longsword and SoW to just about every enemy, even with vanguards’ less pierce resist.

    Longsword was perfectly balanced, just because it two shot vanguards with overhead stab combo doesn’t mean longsword was OP, it means vanguards were UP. I think they could’ve used a slight pierce resist buff to stop that rather than nerfing longsword and SoW. Not nerf the longsword and SoW then give them this crazy knock back, flinch and stamina drain changes as well as over buffing spears and turning claymore into a giant dagger.

    The longsword 2h (and 1h) takes 4 hits to kill another knight which is unacceptable for a 2h weapon (or such a slow 1h). I do well with it too, but that doesn’t make it good. I do well with fists for crying out loud. Or the war axe. Or the cudgel. Does that make them any better? No. Not that I miss the old cudgel. The longsword no longer has any decent speed, and its reach doesn’t outweigh its terrible damage and speed now.

    I do a lot of double torso stab hard kick vanguard kills too for duels, but you won’t be able to do that very often in a 24p TO pub, and the messer two shots vanguards much easier than that and faster. The point is, messer is far better and you’ll have much better success with it than longsword in just about any non-competitive clan team battle scenario, including duels.



  • Please understand none of this is for the sake of argument, just different views and opinions. I think the most important part of choosing your weapon in this game is preference, and the LS isn’t for everyone just like the messer isn’t for everyone.

    I generally find the messer to not be as effective against players proficient in blocking mouse drags and those who are ready for the tricks that come with that trade. It’s also a much easier weapon than the other two swords to read feints on, though I think the LS isn’t very far ahead in this category either (SOW is pretty nice there). Generally against these players I find the best route is to go with a faster weapon, as they often tend to have a much more favorable impact on your opponent’s nerves.

    I did manage to down Beats in a duel once with the messer and ONLY the messer (it was actually messer on messer, I think- he destroyed my longsword round 1, and beat me a few times beforehand with that setup), so it definitely is a very viable option for facing top tiered opponents. There are also guys like Xexyc and Dofoo who just OWN me with the sword of war, and on a fairly consistent basis. I’m much better defending against slower drags and trying to anticipate my opponents intended miss combos etc. than I am against parrying incredibly fast barrages of 120 degree drag stabs and overheads that go a clean circle around my parry to hit me in the leg, though.

    So, in a sense, I guess I’m just trying to say there are a combination of factors that make up the weapon you should choose. Every player is a bit different (especially guys with less experience versus guys with more experience) and I would always try and encourage new players to try out different weapons all the time. I’m still always trying out stuff and going back to things I shelved hundreds of hours ago (yeah, screw you warhammer) to see how my developing skills work with weapons strengths and weaknesses.



  • No, the longsword is garbage and I hate the fact you’re trying to say otherwise which Slygoat would rather listen to lesser hour players than us 1000+ who know what they’re talking about and keep the longsword in its trash state right now. It’s no longer preference, it’s flat out gimping your self to pick it over the messer especially in non-duel situations. I already made a thread asking for brainstorming ideas on how to balance the longsword better for pubs rather than duels. You can do well with the longsword in duels, I’m not arguing that at all. I’m saying that just because it can be okay in duels doesn’t mean it has any viability against the messer in terms of top tier performance, especially when it comes to pubbing.

    I love using the longsword in duels, I really do. And I’m okay with its performance in the duel mode even if messer is better, I just hate its state in pubs right now.



  • @SOC:

    No, the longsword is garbage and I hate the fact you’re trying to say otherwise which Slygoat would rather listen to lesser hour players than us 1000+ who know what they’re talking about and keep the longsword in its trash state right now. It’s no longer preference, it’s flat out gimping your self to pick it over the messer especially in non-duel situations. I already made a thread asking for brainstorming ideas on how to balance the longsword better for pubs rather than duels. You can do well with the longsword in duels, I’m not arguing that at all. I’m saying that just because it can be okay in duels doesn’t mean it has any viability against the messer in terms of top tier performance, especially when it comes to pubbing.

    I love using the longsword in duels, I really do. And I’m okay with its performance in the duel mode even if messer is better, I just hate its state in pubs right now.

    So becuase you still suck with the longsword after 1000+ hours it means its crap?

    I think some of you 1000 hour guys suffer from delusions of grandeur.



  • He just got used to it being one way. I think he just thinks it should be that way (as he played so many hours with it that way), and I’m not to say whether or not that’s true. I miss the old longsword, more so I miss the old SOW and claymore.

    I mean think about it- he probably had something like 1100 hours before the game was turned on it’s head. That’s a little frustrating. I do agree it was a very poor decision, and I think this was a really bad move that killed the competitive community (say what you will about the competitive community, they are players too, and players with MUCH experience).

    I personally do just as well with the longsword in TO/LTS pubs, as a two hander (one hander can’t handle multiples). When you’re fighting 2 on 1 the messer just doesn’t have the speed to flinch the guys with any reasonable timing, nor does it have the range to reliably hit an opponent when you do a quick 180 stab. The SOW does (iffy on range), but it’s going to take 6-8 hits between them to kill the two, and by that point it’s 5 on 1 or worse.

    I know I am inferior in my number of hours (800), so just ignore me.

    EDIT: Now when this new guy comes back to this forum he’s going to be very confused, haha.



  • @lemonater47:

    So becuase you still suck with the longsword after 1000+ hours it means its crap?

    I think some of you 1000 hour guys suffer from delusions of grandeur.

    I never sucked with the longsword and I don’t suck with it now after its nerfs. It’s just not good enough to compete with many other weapons now on equal terms in many pub situations. I think you still got some learning to do, sonny.

    @quigleyer:

    He just got used to it being one way. I think he just thinks it should be that way (as he played so many hours with it that way), and I’m not to say whether or not that’s true. I miss the old longsword, more so I miss the old SOW and claymore.

    I mean think about it- he probably had something like 1100 hours before the game was turned on it’s head. That’s a little frustrating. I do agree it was a very poor decision, and I think this was a really bad move that killed the competitive community (say what you will about the competitive community, they are players too, and players with MUCH experience).

    I personally do just as well with the longsword in TO/LTS pubs, as a two hander (one hander can’t handle multiples). When you’re fighting 2 on 1 the messer just doesn’t have the speed to flinch the guys with any reasonable timing, nor does it have the range to reliably hit an opponent when you do a quick 180 stab. The SOW does (iffy on range), but it’s going to take 6-8 hits between them to kill the two, and by that point it’s 5 on 1 or worse.

    I know I am inferior in my number of hours (800), so just ignore me.

    EDIT: Now when this new guy comes back to this forum he’s going to be very confused, haha.

    Well, if you think you can give me some tips on how to go 55-5 consistently in 24p TO solo pubs attacking team with many rank 40-50s like I used to with it (I guess it’s more like 45-5 without dancing/combo feint to parry now) then I would greatly appreciate it. But I just don’t see how it can compete with the messer when it comes to pubbing, because you say it doesn’t have the speed or flinch or range of reliability but I completely argue otherwise, and say that it’s better than the longsword at those situations because of its fantastic damage that the longsword doesn’t have any more. The longsword feels like it takes 6-8 hits just like the SoW now while the messer can do it in 4-5 no problem.

    I’m sorry, I shouldn’t talk down to you or make you feel inferior. I’m just really frustrated at Torn Banner listening to the wrong people about removing combo feint to parry, adding in recovery parry, wrongfully nerfing the longsword and destroying the competitive scene.



  • @Grogan:

    Great info so far. Much appreciated.

    I have a couple more questions.

    Is there a reason to choose the warhammer over the messer that I’m not seeing? It doesn’t seem to do enough damage to compensate for its shortcomings (slow, short range, weak stab).

    How do the bastard swords stack up to each other in general? On paper (I’m using the Google spreadsheet), the messer has the worst range and slowest speed, but I’m not noticing a big difference in game. What I am noticing is the increased slash and overhead damage, but sometimes I feel like I need a better stab since that seems to be the go-to punish a lot of the time (best range? + fastest attack) and the safest way to poke someone in a group without risking friendly fire. Is the SoW’s stab good enough to compensate for its weaker slash and overhead or would the longsword be a better choice since it seems more balanced overall than SoW?

    The warhammer kills knights much faster since its blunt damage. As others said use the kite shield. Also try out third person mode a bit to get a feel of what everyone else is doing around you and how people act when your shield is up.

    I really like the messer kite combo.

    Train yourself to swing and run forwards right after you hear the shield get hit, que the attack for counter attack right when you hear the noise. Try to make sure you are always moving forward, I keep run always on by putting the sprint key as w the same key i move forward with.


Log in to reply