Feints and Instant Hits



  • The experience that lead to this suggestion:

    When fighting against players that don’t accelerate hits or do it poorly. I find that feints with 2-h weapons are manageable. Since they are rather obvious. 1-h feints are naturally trickier since they are much faster but you at least have a chance to detect it in this circumstance.

    When watching high level fights, where acceleration is at it’s highest level. I find that Instant hits are very common. Possible with many different weapons, maybe all of them. Those that preform the best in duelling are often those that mix instant hits with feints. If you wait to try and detect the feint you will in most cases get hit. Where as if you block and he feints then you get a second instant attack that hits you. This situation seems like a guessing game. Which often means that high level feint fights last mere seconds even if they seem to be of similar skill.

    This made me consider the following. What if feints were not the source of the problem, but rather the result of a different problem. The instant hit. Perhaps that idea is worthy of being examined?

    The suggestion:

    Currently an attack has a Wind-Up phase followed by a Release phase. During Wind-Up you can be flinched and you can feint. During release your weapon deals damage and you cannot feint. What if you kept this as it is with one change. You take a fraction of the beginning of the release phase and change it into a Pre-Release phase (or whatever it should be called).

    Currently: Wind-Up -> Release –- Lets say this takes 1 unit of time.

    Suggested: Wind-Up -> Pre-Release -> Release –- This also takes 1 unit of time since Pre-Release is the beginning part of Release.

    The Pre-Release phase is exactly the same as the Release phase. With one key difference. Please do not stop reading after the next sentence, at least hear me out. During Pre-Release your weapon deals no damage, if it hits someone the attack is cancelled as if it just struck a wall.

    Why would the attack be cancelled after you already finished the Wind-Up you ask? Well picture this silly example. Two knights face each other in battle. Sir John and Sir Smith. They both have longswords, they both start Wind-Up at same time. Sir John lifts his sword above his head ready to release it upon his opponent. Sir Smith, trying to be clever, placed his sword on Sir Johns shoulder at the end of his Wind-Up. According to the game, Sir Smith with hit first and deal the same amount of damage as Sir John. Even tho Sir Smiths weapon has no momentum. With the Pre-Release suggestion. He presses the sword down but with no momentum it will not so easily penetrate the armor. No damage is dealt.

    Final words:

    Since calculating momentum adds a lot more… well… “calculations” for the computer to deal with. I figured this suggestion was a simple and cheap solution to achieve something similar. Will it make feints more manageable and reduce the amount of complaints? I don’t know. Will it add to or reduce from the fun of the game? I don’t know. Is it worth testing and discussing? I believe it is. I figured I should at least post it here and let the community and developers decide if this suggestion has any potential to be a good solution.

    At best it will make feints more manageable and therefore reduce the amount of complaints. At worst it simply doesn’t work and thus cannot be used.



  • There is already a period at the end of windup where attacks cannot be feinted.



  • Hey SlyGoat. I am sorry, English is not my native tongue so I guess I’m worse at it then I thought. Either my point is really unclear or you read this really quickly.

    I don’t mean adding a period that cannot be feinted. Lets put an example here, mind you the class and weapon in the example is not important, this is just an example.

    You are a vanguard, with a claymore. You see a knight in front of you. You run at him, he suddenly turns around and noticed you is startled and panic blocks. You then, at the appropriate time, start an over head (or a swing, doesn’t matter), accelerate it to it’s maximum speed. The hit connects instantly (wind-up ends, release begins in the target) with the knight.

    Now in this example, if my suggestion was in play, the hit that instantly connects with the knight would connect during the pre-release phase, and be cancelled since it had no momentum at this time (it would be as if it had struck a wall, if you find that silly then I tried to explain my reason behind this in the post above.). It connects too soon. This pre release phase would be very short just a small fraction of the beginning of the normal release phase. To prevent instant hit connections.

    I am not a top level player of this game. I have, however, played it quite a lot. I have over 1000 hours played. The point here is that I’ve seen in pretty much every play session, people complain about feints. Feints get most of the blame it seems. Perhaps they wouldn’t be as bad if instant connections were not possible.

    If someone does an instant attack against you, you pretty much have to guess, he’s either going to feint or go through with the attack. If you wait to detect the feint then you get instant hit in most cases.

    I think this is worth a test, or at least a discussion. I suppose maybe I am unable to get my point across in English. If you are looking for a fairly simple attempt to reduce feint complaints, this might be it. Maybe. I hope I am not wasting too much of your time.



  • My point was the unfeintable window accomplishes the same thing - there are no instant hit opportunities where an attack can be feinted at the last second. If you block early, of course you’ll be hit. I don’t see why we should add yet another extra bit of time to attacks so that players who block way too early have a chance of blocking again.



  • In my experiance people who are going for an instant hit then feint and follow through get parried anyway. As the persons parry stays up long enough to actually catch the swing after the feint. Unless its a maul or something.

    That’s why people don’t try and feint then go for an instant hit anymore. It just doesn’t work.



  • @SlyGoat:

    My point was the unfeintable window accomplishes the same thing - there are no instant hit opportunities where an attack can be feinted at the last second. If you block early, of course you’ll be hit. I don’t see why we should add yet another extra bit of time to attacks so that players who block way too early have a chance of blocking again.

    Not really what he is saying. I think he wants attacks to get nullified if the weapon is already inside the enemy’s body too early, basically.



  • he wants a period of release where the first part of the release doesn’t do any damage basically, and that’s not the best idea ever, just need to adjust tracers on the polearms and such so that the hands and handle don’t do damage, as others have requested… just need that arc to have more blue on he handle and less red.



  • I would go even further with swing dragging. If a swing was dragged it should do far less damage because it just doesnt have the velocity, the physics to really do the same amount of damage that a look down would do with much higher velocity. But hey that is just me.



  • @dudeface:

    @SlyGoat:

    My point was the unfeintable window accomplishes the same thing - there are no instant hit opportunities where an attack can be feinted at the last second. If you block early, of course you’ll be hit. I don’t see why we should add yet another extra bit of time to attacks so that players who block way too early have a chance of blocking again.

    Not really what he is saying. I think he wants attacks to get nullified if the weapon is already inside the enemy’s body too early, basically.

    Yeah dudeface, I think you got what I meant. Glad at least my point was legible. Even if it doesn’t win any popularity contests.

    @Retsnom:

    I would go even further with swing dragging. If a swing was dragged it should do far less damage because it just doesnt have the velocity, the physics to really do the same amount of damage that a look down would do with much higher velocity. But hey that is just me.

    Yeah the delay mechanism is weird. Looking up in mid overhead, or looking against the direction of your swing. Technically reducing the speed of the weapon. It is a bit silly. Would be really difficult to stop a maul in mid air mid release then gently knock on your opponents head when he peaks at what you are doing. :P But I always figured they deliberatly didnt include momentum calculations because of extra preformance pressure. That’s why I mentioned this cheaper way, even if it is not the best.

    @lemonater47:

    In my experiance people who are going for an instant hit then feint and follow through get parried anyway. As the persons parry stays up long enough to actually catch the swing after the feint. Unless its a maul or something.

    That’s why people don’t try and feint then go for an instant hit anymore. It just doesn’t work.

    Yeah, but they control when they do an instant hit. You see, you make it seem like you do an instant, then feint it. They block, then you wait slightly and do another instant, otherwise you just immediately do a normal hit. Whatever your preference is. This is used quite a bit, at least on the EU servers I play on.

    @SlyGoat:

    My point was the unfeintable window accomplishes the same thing - there are no instant hit opportunities where an attack can be feinted at the last second. If you block early, of course you’ll be hit. I don’t see why we should add yet another extra bit of time to attacks so that players who block way too early have a chance of blocking again.

    Okay, fair enough. I have at least mentioned this. If it is not worthy to be looked at, considered, then so be it. I do find tho that whenever you are designing gameplay features and you go down the route of having something that can teleport instantly into the enemy target and deal damage, it makes things a bit more random. Like the weapon movement from looking up then down overheads.

    I have to admit tho that I don’t have any servers where I can play with 20 ping, my best is around 60 and where I play mostly I’m around 80. Perhaps it is enough to cause this sort of teleportation or lack of visual feedback whatever it should be called. I would still have thought that anything below 100 should be fine when dealing with visual feedback.

    In anycase, thanks guys for reading through this and replying. Good to hear how others view this.



  • i at least want that for charge attacks, my god.



  • Sounds like a scaled down version of the more realistic strikes (less damage on handle, start and end) that are suggested since release (because they would solve a lot of issues).

    The issue of late feints in combination with instant hits got resolved by the unfeintable window (which is a good addition unlike this collision bubble). Instant hits themselves didn’t get resolved yet - getting a Bardiche handle pushed into your face has the same effect as having the axe head forced down on you but is faster and harder to parry… At least you can parry them if you are used to the weapon windup.


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