RushSecond's Beta Wish List



  • Now that customization is out, I think it’s time we once again focus on fixing up some of the mechanics that are a little off after the big controversial patch. While I do think that patch was a step in the right direction, it’s clearly not perfect. Here are a few things that I would like to see tested in the next beta.

    Keep in mind these are TEST changes. I’m not advocating that all these things are added to live immediately. I’d just like to see some or all of these tested in the next beta.

    1. Remove all knockback from the game. Buff any weapon or class that becomes too weak as a result.

    In my opinion, knockback is greatest immersion-killer of all of the current intended mechanics. It makes no sense that a sword hitting my shield would cause me to fly backwards 5 feet. You shouldn’t have to block 3 spear jabs just to get in range of the vanguard holding it, not to mention if you are trying to climb stairs to get to said vanguard than you might as well give up now, since you get knocked flying to the bottom of the stairs on every hit. Knockback causes more team damage as well, since an ally can and often does get knocked into your swing when you try to save him from that MAA hitting him from behind. The game has the worst arcade feeling when everybody is just flying all over the place as a result of getting hit by attacks. At most, parry and blocking should slow momentum, but getting hit backwards is just bad. I’m begging you TB, if you listen to any one of my ideas in this thread, listen to this one. Knockback SUCKS.

    1. Change to CFTP: parry lockout lasts 0.5 seconds from the time of the combo-windup, instead of 0.4 seconds from the time of the combo-feint.

    This still keeps the extra risk of combos (especially after missing an attack) but now it would allow more control to good players if they notice that their combo is unsafe, or just wants to be tricky with combos while using great reaction to stay safe.

    1. Merge combo-parry and panic parry into one type of recovery parry that costs no extra stamina, allows riposte, but can’t be used during the first 0.2 seconds of recovery.

    The current recovery parries are very unintuitive and inconsistent on how they work, and this causes needless confusion. In particular, it’s rather annoying when you try to parry after your recovery is over and try to riposte, only to have that riposte fail because you actually parried at the very end of recovery. The stamina costs should be removed also, because going into recovery when you recognize you need to defend is a sign of great play and should not be punished by this massive 20 stamina hit, especially when fighting multiple players when you may need to do it many times to survive.

    On the flip side, parrying at the very beginning of release has proven to be a little too strong. It makes it very difficult to punish missed swings when everybody can just hit right click and defend themselves. Instead of an immediate defense, recovery parry should activate a little after release so there’s a little more of a window to punish a missed swing. If a player combos a parry during an attack, it will activate after this proposed 0.2 second lockout.

    1. Allow players to queue both of the above parries, but cancel that queue when hit by an enemy melee weapon.

    You should never, ever need to mash right click just to parry at the earliest time. Make it easy and simple. For CFTP, a double right click during a combo will feint, wait the lockout, then parry. This queue should be cancelled when hit, because most likely a player won’t want that parry to go off if it’s too late.

    1. Reduce parry recovery from 0.5 seconds to 0.4 seconds. Add a 5 stamina cost to using a parry, subtract the same 5 cost from successfully parrying for all weapons.

    Feints are a little too easy to use right now. You can just hit Q near the end of windup and the opponent has to guess whether you are attacking or not. It’s a risky play in most circumstances, but the reward is often a free hit just for hitting the Q button and using some stamina. Lowering the vulnerable window for parries makes the feinter have to time their feint-attack better, making the success depend more on them and less on the enemy player’s guess.

    With faster parries, a stamina cost should be added to parries to prevent parry spamming in an attempt to turtle. Successfully parrying wouldn’t cost more stamina than before, but hitting right click over and over would drain stamina over time.

    1. Lower the damage of crossbows, and compensate for the lost damage by making them flinch for a longer period of time.

    Crossbows do too much damage; it’s incredibly frustrating to run all the way to the fight only to get 1 or 2 shot by bolts. This game is first and foremost a melee game, and ranged weapons should add to that mix instead of taking away from it. With this change, crossbows would have much more of a support role by incapacitating the enemy during his melee fight, rather than just sniping off reinforcements before they can even fight. This would also add to the teamwork element of the game; if you know you have many crossbowmen on your team, you can wait until you see the enemy get hit with an bolt, then attack and feint when you know he can’t attack into you.

    1. Lower stamina cost of kicking, and remove the stamina drain you get from being kicked.

    More needless stamina drain that needs to go. Less stamina costs means less time waiting around for stamina to regen, therefore the game is faster. This change also makes kicking a little more viable when fighting multiple enemies with shields, since you’ll actually have the stamina to knock them all down.

    1. Anything else I missed!

    I’m sure there’s more changes that I can’t think of right now. Feel free to discuss this list and add anything you think is necessary. Of course, don’t bother with things like “revert everything to CU1”, this thread is about looking forwards, not backwards.

    Again, keep in mind these are TEST changes. I’m not advocating that all these things are added to live immediately. I’d just like to see some or all of these tested in the next beta.



  • No. Just no.

    I do agree with one thing. Kicks shouldn’t reduce stamina for the guy getting kicked. Didn’t actually know that happened.



  • @lemonater47:

    No. Just no.

    I do agree with one thing. Kicks shouldn’t reduce stamina for the guy getting kicked. Didn’t actually know that happened.



  • Lol no.

    I would like the “quick kick” to be a little quicker though… I currently don’t notice any difference between quick and power kick, other than the fact that one of them stuns shields while the other doesn’t.



  • @Event:

    Lol no.

    I would like the “quick kick” to be a little quicker though… I currently don’t notice any difference between quick and power kick, other than the fact that one of them stuns shields while the other doesn’t.

    Do you play in third person? As in third person the difference is hard to tell.



  • @lemonater47:

    @Event:

    Lol no.

    I would like the “quick kick” to be a little quicker though… I currently don’t notice any difference between quick and power kick, other than the fact that one of them stuns shields while the other doesn’t.

    Do you play in third person? As in third person the difference is hard to tell.

    The only reason I ever go in 3rd person is to ego-stroke my uniform design.

    I honestly can barely tell the difference in speed between fast and power kick.



  • Sorry, but I feel some of your suggestions are major immersion breakers.

    Knockback removal:
    Having no knockback does kill immersion. While I agree that stabs should have less knockback because in reality they tend to slide off (notable exeptions are the Brandistock and Maul) your suggestion is on the same level as “remove swords from the game because the Norse Sword is too fast”. If you would change it to “greatly reduce knockback on most stabs” it would be okay.

    The second one is actually a very nice idea.

    I do not like your ideas for Combo and Panic Parry at all. You suggest the removal of the much needed disadvantages. A very bad thing if you consider the influence they (especially Panic Parry) already have on gameplay. Its almost like removing recovery and the punishment for poor attacks completely. The gameplay should not be watered down any further.

    Same goes for canceling a parry when hit. It would just remove the punishment for bad timing. Queuing is nice - button spamming is not skill after all.

    Yes to the stamina cost for useless parries. This would probably also allow to shorten the parry recovery slightly. However, I see no reason to reduce it so

    NO to the Crossbow suggestions. Crossbows are meant to deal a shitload of damage. Also damage does cause less frustration than a prolonged flinch period. Please no unneeded gamification. More realism is usually better and there should be a very very good reason for reducing realism (frustration from getting sniped is not - use shields/cover/movement). Increase realism by increasing the reload time instead.

    Kick stamina drain is okay. Lowering it would only cause people to spam kicks more often (as you can). Stamina drain from getting kicked is too high and it wouldn’t hurt if it was zero. And adding more realsim to kicks is too much work for such a small feature.

    What you missed (some things):

    • removal of the dodge out of daze bug (the most urgent thing right now)
    • alternate attacks from combos and ripostes (more control over your own weapon)
    • less stamina drain on shield blocks
    • animation smoothing/ ghost strike/feint removal
    • reduction of the collision bubble size
    • auto-enabling of customization in duel mode
    • scaled down intensity for some colors (I want a non-pitch-black black)
    • removal of glow from black helmets
      [- more realistic damage hitboxes] (would increase game quality a lot and solve quite some issues but it requires some effort/weapon rebalancing and I doubt Torn Banner will ever do this :-( )


  • Thanks Evil Minion for the nice response.

    @Evil:

    Having no knockback does kill immersion. While I agree that stabs should have less knockback because in reality they tend to slide off (notable exeptions are the Brandistock and Maul) your suggestion is on the same level as “remove swords from the game because the Norse Sword is too fast”. If you would change it to “greatly reduce knockback on most stabs” it would be okay.

    I suppose some knockback would be okay on heavy weapons like maul and grand mace, because they are heavy and the pure force of it would knock you back a bit. Everything else is realistically too light to do what it does currently; even the lighter classes clearly weigh far more than a zweihander, so their momentum would cancel the sword swing and not the other way around. Also, when parrying you are mostly deflecting the weapon, not stopping the force of it. There’s no way you would fly backwards 5 feet.

    I do not like your ideas for Combo and Panic Parry at all. You suggest the removal of the much needed disadvantages. A very bad thing if you consider the influence they (especially Panic Parry) already have on gameplay. Its almost like removing recovery and the punishment for poor attacks completely. The gameplay should not be watered down any further.

    The current disadvantages are not needed or justified. Many good players (myself included) have come to the conclusion that fighting multiple enemies is nearly impossible post-patch because stamina is so limiting when using panic parry. With multiple enemies on you, even if you swing and hit one, you are often forced to panic parry to defend when another attacks into you, by no fault of your own. Knowing not to combo, aiming the right way quickly after your attack, and timing the parry are all difficult to pull off successfully, so it’s not fair to artificially punish this good play with a massive stamina cost. Too many times I have pulled off quick attack-parry-attack-parry and completely outplay three opponents, only to still die to three nearly dead enemies when I run out of stamina and get stunned. You shouldn’t be able to defeat a skilled player by smothering him with your higher combined stamina.

    Same goes for canceling a parry when hit. It would just remove the punishment for bad timing. Queuing is nice - button spamming is not skill after all.

    You misread it. I never said hits would cancel the parry, I suggested they cancel the queue for the parry. So in the above situation, if you attack one enemy, see another attacking, queue a parry to try to defend but he hits you 0.1 seconds before the parry would activate, the parry queue would cancel so you wouldn’t get locked into it and take another hit. Just a quality of life thing.

    NO to the Crossbow suggestions. Crossbows are meant to deal a shitload of damage. Also damage does cause less frustration than a prolonged flinch period. Please no unneeded gamification. More realism is usually better and there should be a very very good reason for reducing realism (frustration from getting sniped is not - use shields/cover/movement). Increase realism by increasing the reload time instead.

    Well, it’s just a suggestion to try. I suppose it can stay the way it is, since there are enough tools to counter archers. I just know from experience that it’s very off-putting to get sniped just after running to the objective, even if it only happens once per game. I’d rather it happen zero times.

    Kick stamina drain is okay. Lowering it would only cause people to spam kicks more often (as you can). Stamina drain from getting kicked is too high and it wouldn’t hurt if it was zero. And adding more realsim to kicks is too much work for such a small feature.

    I suppose this would be fine to stay the same as well, as long as the other stamina reductions go through.

    What you missed (some things):

    • removal of the dodge out of daze bug (the most urgent thing right now)
    • alternate attacks from combos and ripostes (more control over your own weapon)
    • less stamina drain on shield blocks
    • animation smoothing/ ghost strike/feint removal
    • auto-enabling of customization in duel mode
    • scaled down intensity for some colors (I want a non-pitch-black black)
    • removal of glow from black helmets
      [- more realistic damage hitboxes] (would increase game quality a lot and solve quite some issues but it requires some effort/weapon rebalancing and I doubt Torn Banner will ever do this :-( )

    Those are too obvious though! :)

    • reduction of the collision bubble size

    Regardless of people’s opinion of it, I don’t think that’s going to happen.



  • The current disadvantages are not needed or justified. Many good players (myself included) have come to the conclusion that fighting multiple enemies is nearly impossible post-patch

    I’m pretty sure you aren’t a competiive player so I assume you mean in pubs.

    Fighting outnumbered in pubs is still easy and no where near impossible. If you were a good player, as you say you are, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Just saying.



  • @RushSecond:

    The current disadvantages are not needed or justified. Many good players (myself included) have come to the conclusion that fighting multiple enemies is nearly impossible post-patch because stamina is so limiting when using panic parry.

    Good players should not use panic parry. Its meant as a last resort move to save you ass by bypassing recovery into an emergency parry. It should cost a lot of stamina as its a forced redirection of your weapon during recovery (the period your weapon usually drags you behind). The combo attack, feint and combo parry stamina costs can be justified the same way. But combos are less forced and more redirected (they don’t cancel anything) thus they cost less than the more forced panic parry. A gameplay justification would be the punishment for either picking a fight against multiple enemies (failed perception or footwork) or missing your attack (failed precision or timing).

    @RushSecond:

    • reduction of the collision bubble size

    Regardless of people’s opinion of it, I don’t think that’s going to happen.

    This is almost as urgent as the dodge bug. Just try to hit a moving enemy from behind with a short weapon (I even hoped they would fix it with the customization update). It also makes gaps around enemies impassable even if they are big enough - a very bad thing to have in any game. There are also a lot of other suggestions how to deal with the issues it was supposed to solve (it did not…).
    Also we speak about testing - if it turns out too small it could be increased with the next iteration (well, the current bubble turned out too big in beta and still went live…).



  • @lemonater47:

    No. Just no.

    I do agree with one thing. Kicks shouldn’t reduce stamina for the guy getting kicked. Didn’t actually know that happened.

    Honestly the quick kick should be knockback. Actually landing a powerkick is not the easiest to do. If an opponent is clumsy enough to be hit by a powerkick the stamina reduction on him is good, considering how much stamina it takes to EMPLOY the kick. I reckon either reduce the stamina for doing the powerkick and remove the stam drain from the opponent or keep them how they are.


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