The silly idea that reach works great



  • To make things clear of the start. I am not saying that you can’t do anything with the reach, you can, but it’s very limited. I am not just someone who is tired of getting killed and my scores are usually pretty good. I play vanguard and I know how to utilize the reach in most situations. I am just tired of hearing how great the reach is and how it’s so powerful when it is really not.
    I know I will get like everyone going against me on this one, since every good player thinks that everything is fine. Before anyone does that, just think how any high rank players fight. We get close to each other, no matter what weapons we use. Close enough for most one handed hit you easily, even spear users don’t try to push you away as much. There is just too much advantage you have upclose in everything. I have never found any good player that actually tried to keep me at his weapons full reach, there are some kiters but thats kiting, any freaking class with any weapon can do that.
    You can go circles with someone and get far enough from them to outreach them but you hardly gonna be able to do that vs anyone decent. I am not using the longest reach weapon, gs, so I hold that in mind. It does not matter though since I played other classes and ignored reach of pretty much any weapon vanguard got.
    This is how it goes, you can throw first attack but how many times you actually hit someone with it that sees it coming? It’s slow, even with drags it’s easy to block. Once they block it, any class, can just go in and all your reach advantages are pretty much over unless you gonna kite or circle them. The knock back, did not do shit when it was implemented, does not do shit after nerf. It does not even work half of the time. Even knight can block first attack and get in reach to stab you, maa and archers can do that even easier. All archers and maa got to do is just run at you and they always be past your reach advantage.
    Some might say how you can hit maa in dodge with long reach weapon, and yes you can. Thought maa can completely ignore your reach as they run forward and thats when reach should actually matter. Vanguards usually dominate ffa servers, yeah they do but ffa is probably the least important mode and just for fun. But what about vanguards being able to hit few people at once? If they are not looking or you are good enough to trick them, yeah you can. But it’s not like it’s impossible to hit several at once with one handed. Also are we going to ignore that some of the best scores in to are often gotten by maa or knights?
    As I said, I don’t think that reach is useless. I use it effectivly all the time but it is so easy to ignore. I saw people do it and I done it myself. I am sorry but knight blocking gs at full reach stab then I have to block cause he is already in my reach is just stupid. Running forward just beats any reach, and anyone who has any concept of logic going to say that this is how you have to deal with reach. I do agree, but does it have to be this easy?



  • It does work great. I’d much rather duel an MAA as a Vanguard than as a Knight because counter-attacking is that much easier, as is keeping them at a safe distance.

    For teamplay, nothing beats a Spear or Halberd for assisting a teammate while staying safe, unless of course you are quite good with a bow.



  • I am not talking about maa vs knights. It still does not work that good. So you can counter attack them and they will block it and counter you, possibly at point blank with broad sword that lately sometimes faster than you can parry. I do want to see anyone try to keep maa at safe distance if maa wants to get in, any class, not just maa.
    You can assist well with long reach but so can you with one handed. Which is also much faster and you don’t have to be that close anyways.



  • @Sciffer:

    I am not talking about maa vs knights. It still does not work that good. So you can counter attack them and they will block it and counter you, possibly at point blank with broad sword that lately sometimes faster than you can parry. I do want to see anyone try to keep maa at safe distance if maa wants to get in, any class, not just maa.
    You can assist well with long reach but so can you with one handed. Which is also much faster and you don’t have to be that close anyways.

    o.0

    It’s easier to counter-attack an MAA as a Vanguard as in, his dodge does not keep him safe from all ripostes. If you attack directly at him every time and he can block well, of course he will block, that’s nothing to do with your reach though.

    As to one-handers assisting just as well as spears, well… Obviously if you think that, I can see where you find reach useless, since you’re clearly not utilizing it well. Clearly, your counterpoints don’t even address what I said in any meaningful way, so… really, Learn2Play.



  • I was going easy on your first comment but after this one there is no point.
    So my answer did not adress anything you said and did not counter it well? Yours did? You literally picked out just a few things that I did not even adress as the main problem. Thats very meaningful?
    I also know how to play, thank you. I actually use reach more than nearly anyone I ever saw. How about try to advocate the part where I said that every good player fights up close, no matter what reach they got? Cause thats a fact.
    They block is so means they are good at blocking, nothing to do with the reach? Wow, really? Did not I mention somewhere that the main problem is how easy it is to block any long reach weapon? I did.
    I also mentioned how you can hit maa in their dodge and chase them but how does it changes a fact that just by running forward they can beat any reach? Nice job giving an example of where maa trying to run away when I said that the problem is when they run at you… And you know what, if you said such bs I can too. If you hit maa in their dodge that means you are good and they should learn how to play.
    Assisting is better with two handed cause you are in safe distance? Ok? What a huge advantage. Except that you can get in and get out and make it even harder on your opponent to fight two if you are coming with a stab from one handed, which you can also land while starting it way out of reach. Both two handed and one handed have their place in asissts, does not changes the fact how you can still ignore the reach.
    If you going to post something where you pick out a few things and avoid the main topic and then say that someone needs to learn something. Then don’t post at all.



  • Lol. “Every good player fights up close” “Reach doesn’t work”

    So… you’re getting in close, since you clearly think you’re a good player, but you also state that you use reach better than anyone, but that reach doesn’t work that well, but that you get good scores. So, I mean, which is it? I only picked out the parts of your post that made some kind of sense since that’s what I bothered to read.

    If you don’t like my responses, hey, keep complaining man. Or use a one-hander since they are just as good as something with more reach in your eyes, maybe you’re just better with a Broadsword than with a Greatsword, it happens.

    But yes, stuff like: @Sciffer:

    I do want to see anyone try to keep maa at safe distance if maa wants to get in, any class, not just maa.

    Doesn’t counter what I said at all and is really a non-argument and only reinforces my initial “L2P”, since I and many others have done it… Where do you think the complaints about “dancing” come from if not from players using their reach to great effect?



  • Yeah, I do think I am not bad, but so do you. I find some of the things you said a complete nonsense and see how it can be beat easily and you find it is easy to deal with some examples I give. Don’t think that either one of us is a bad player so lets drop the snobby attitude.
    Also you literally take everything I say, mash it together to make it sound worse. Yeah I fight up close when I have to, it’s most effective for drags and nearly everything. I do use reach more in to and when I do use it I am not upclose. You put two together for no reason to make it sound bad. Is the concept of switching play style that hard to get?
    This is the reason why I don’t like posting on forums that much. Everyone who slightly disagrees twists everything you say. If this topic was something like “bring back ctfp” or something, you would not call it complaining and would support it even though what I said is no more of a complaining than that one would be. Of course this is just an example, idk if you liked ctfp or not, but it seem like you got to explain everything or people don’t understand.
    It’s annoying that many people got the idea if you say something against that is accepted by most good players than you will be viewed as worse player or some shit. I am pretty sure thats why many people can’t open their eyes to obvious problems.
    And nothing I said reinforced your learn to play. In your eyes maybe, in my you just avoided all the strong points and did not answer anything, while only repeated a few minor things that I made sure to mention myself. Go ahead and try keeping an maa at your full reach if they are trying to get in. Some decent maa too, not someone who is bad. If you can’t, and I bet so, learn how to play? That does sound pretty dumb, does it not? Kinda like what you said. It’s a fact that any decent maa can close that reach easily and it has nothing to do with you being bad or good.
    Kiting, I specifically mentioned it, any class can do it. Yes vanguards get more advantage in it but it’s just one play style that not even everyone likes.



  • You’re better off being as short as you can with posts Scriffer or people will always talk on the other stuff you have written.

    You can use epic timing to hit people when they come into your range, yes good players can block those attacks, but you get to make the first attack and that can count for a lot.

    I have noticed a bit of a bug(?) though. If you are trying to get close to your opponent and you let go of [moveforwards] to parry you seem to get ‘flinched’ but if you keep holding [moveforwards] whilst parrying you don’t seem to be delayed anywhere near as much. Its as if you haven’t been flinched at all.



  • I have not noticed that, gonna have to check.
    I know man, usually long posts don’t do the work but I could not explain it shortly or it would just sound like someone wants something nerfed. Reach does not work, nerf everything so it does. Which is not what I want.
    As you said, you can hit them in right time, I did say that I don’t think that reach is useless. Though it’s still hard to do what you said, yeah you can kill a lot of players with that if they are new or not experienced. But all decent players block it. I hardly ever get hit by something like this and honestly the only time when I do is when I misjudge the reach. Beside that it is easy to block and get in their face.
    I don’t mean this is a huge problem either but just after blocking so many knights and maa right after I just hit them with my full reach, it gets annoying.



  • I’m a more aggressive player so i like to go on the offensive as much as possible to try and kill people as quickly as possible. What i find is that it can be difficult to judge exactly the distance to my target, for a number of reasons: moving target, lag, my bad, sudden movements, so sometimes my attacks fall short and people like to capitalise on that and get me with their long weapons.

    So its often best to just not make the first move and use riposte or kick.

    If its 1 v 1 and i’m getting serious and the other guy is a wise guy i’ll opt to use epic timing and throw an attack just as they come into range. Against good players they will try and riposte and force me to panic parry and they will try to riposte as much as possible and try to win on stamina, but i’ll press my at as close range as possible and as quick as possible and generally their defense falls apart.



  • Every good player fights at these two distances: The tip of their weapon’s attack reach or in facehug range. Weapon range does work. Just look at how many people are complaining about the claymore’s speed, despite the broadsword being just as fast, but having about half the range.



  • umm… hard to read wall of text :/

    but…I managed ;)

    So my opinion on reach as main MaA: priceless.

    Try and fight with hatchet you will see the difference, I would trade my beloved norse for a claymore ;)

    But more seriously…reach is crucial almost all the time.
    Sure it is less of a problem for me as an maa, but it counts only in duels.
    When dueling Vans the most crucial issue is getting in range. Sure I can dodge-in but clever Van will outmaneuver me to the point where I have one swing (parried easily or avoided with footwork) and he is again “out there”. So I have to improvise, dodge again, slingshot him (luring him in), do a barrel roll(dance). All sorts of mingames and tricks. It is NOT easy with better Vans out there. Keeping “S” pressed is not a footwork btw ;)

    All the time while I am fighting to get close I am burning my stamina, meanwhile he can and will poke me with his long stick forcing me to move away, dodge(again) or parry.

    Range is a buffer. Surely I can close in, that’s the point, but at the cost of stamina and possibly loosing initiative. Short exchange of hits and parries can easily push me out if I am not pressing enough.

    In team fights though, it is godlike to have more reach. Supporting flanks with brandistock is priceless. When I have a Van on my side things become easier. He can initiate attack forcing parry or hit and flinch, I can close in and keep them busy. Reach gives you a lot of options really.

    TL;DR: Reach is a bonus buffer that you have to negate by paying with stamina or loosin initiative, gives you more options and helping in team support roles. It is nowhere useless. Only place it can be an issue is tight places where walls are your enemy.



  • @Ciastooh:

    It is NOT easy with better Vans out there. Keeping “S” pressed is not a footwork btw ;)

    Mmm I wish some of the scrub at arms in Aus would realise this.

    I main Knight, but lately I have been changing to Vanguard when duelling some high level MAA, and the difference in difficulty is HUGE. The extra range of the Halberd or spears make fighting them a hell of a lot easier.

    Even if the MAA manages to push in close, as long as I maintain a solid parry, all I need is one riposte or enough time to get an attack off to either finish him or regain my reach.



  • Ok everyone picks the worst scenarios for maa. Where you got hatchet and they got spear or halberd. Thats not always the case thought. Many maas use broad sword or ns and what if vanguard is using gs or billhock? It is not as easy.
    As I said, I fight maa with gs all the time and I usually do just fine. But you can’t just say that it is easy to deal with them and keep them at full reach. It’s easier than when a knight but they block one attack and they can close on where you the one that got to push them back out or out manuever them cause you just wont hit them faster than they will hit you. You can drag, but so can they.



  • @Sciffer:

    what if vanguard is using gs or billhock? It is not as easy.

    Are you kidding? Greatsword is just plain versatile.

    Billhook I would argue is better; greatsword just has the better m1s

    Nothing has longer reach than any polearm, other than the zweihander I think. And billhook has amazing combo potential, while still having a great stab drag. Makes both its wide rhythms coupled with its range extremely deadly.

    Not to mention: Reach is everything as far as team setting is concerned.

    Greater reach = greater initiation and greater crowd control. Initiation and area control is extremely valuable.



  • The conclusion of this post is…

    Sciffer, learn2play.



  • I did expect these kinda bs comments and I did mention that I do expect to get a lot of disagreement.
    Everyone picks out very few things where I already know that reach works and then throws their funny learn to play while completely ignoring anything good I said about the reach. Learn to read and understand guys, is all I can say.
    You can actually discuss a topic that you don’t agree with without insulting someone or trying to make them look worse. I am not sure why it’s such unattainable feat to so many people on the forum.
    I never said that I can’t deal with the way reach works, never said that I can’t beat maas that press w none stop. I listed several ways you can use reach and the only thing I said is that it just does not work face on as it should. Somehow just from that everyone decided that I just don’t know how to play, brilliant.
    Funny thing is, I can counter most of the things people said here with same bs they used, without answering anything and bring nullifying everything while insulting everyone just cause they don’t agree with me, and god forbid them have an opinion cause that means they need to learn how to play. Right?
    Not going to argue this though cause clearly it leads to nowhere.



  • Flinch makes it feel like speed > reach in a lot of cases, but I’m still not experienced enough to make an honest judgement. All I know is that when I play, say, a shield knight, I tend to do better when I drop the bastard sword and equip a faster secondary. I kind of feel like it often comes down to a game of who can flinch who.



  • Range play was more interesting back when getting parried didn’t lock you out of sprint. Not necessarily a bad change, but I do feel less inclined to use weapons like the halberd and zweihander.
    MAA is the best class to exploit reach with now, not because of the reach on his weapons but because of the crazy distance he can cover before and during release just by sprinting. Even if you want to counter MAAs you’re better off getting a fast secondary or a claymore/bearded axe than a long weapon, that’s how great the disparity between reach and speed is.

    That being said, reach is still great in group fights. The effectiveness in the average encounter has been reduced, though I don’t think it’s a big deal and I’ve no idea how reach could be made more significant without upsetting other balances across classes. Do you?



  • When using the Sword of War I miss the reach of the Longsword quite often. Its less obvious for more strike centered weapons but just compare the Grand Mace and the Double Axe. Also reach is stronger in group fights (everyone knows this poor Archer running in with his Dagger getting hit by everyone and dying before even reaching his target) while speed is better for dueling (most of the time). The Norse Sword is a very powerful (maybe the most powerful) dueling weapon yet its rarely seen in cluster fights.

    A lot of fighters got the sad tendency to rush into near-facehug distance no matter what. Those are often the same that complain about Daggers/Shortsword/Bearded Axe/Feints being too strong…

    To make better use of your reach try to get a solid foothold. Speak: Either crouch or stand while attacking (release, you can move during windup). This way you avoid taking a half step forward - even if you moved backwards you would end up closer to the enemy. My Spear gameplay greatly improved after I learned this.


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