Various Thoughts



  • Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, yet another balance discussion; however, in this discussion I’ll bring up a lot of things that are frequently ignored.

    1H Bastard Swords

    attack/damage/type/windup/combo/release/recovery

    1H Longsword

    attack1/60/cut/.45/.7/.5/.65
    attack2/75/cut/.45/.75/.45/.7
    attack3/55/pierce/.5/.65/.35/.6

    1H Sword of War

    attack1/55/cut/.45/.7/.45/.65
    attack2/60/cut/.45/.75/.4/.75
    attack3/60/pierce/.5/.65/.35/.65

    1H Messer

    attack1/80/cut/.5/.7/.4/.6
    attack2/75/chop/.55/.7/.4/.7
    attack3/50/pierce/.55/.65/.35/.55

    As you can see, there are various imbalances amongst these swords. The most noticable one is that the 1h SoW is completely inferior to the 1h LS. The 1h SoW is barely faster than the 1h LS and it’s a lot weaker and shorter. I also think the combos of all the swords are too slow.

    My suggestion:

    ! 1H Longsword
    !
    ! attack1/60/cut/.45/.675/.4/.65
    ! attack2/75/cut/.45/.675/.45/.7
    ! attack3/55/pierce/.5/.65/.35/.65
    !
    ! 1H SoW
    !
    ! attack1/55/cut/.45/.65/.4/.6
    ! attack2/60/cut/.45/.65/.4/.65
    ! attack3/60/cut/.5/.65/.3/.6

    I only think the 1h messer needs a slight windup buff:

    ! 1h Messer
    !
    ! attack1/80/cut/.5/.7/.4/.6
    ! attack2/75/chop/.5/.7/.4/.7
    ! attack3/50/pierce/.55/.65/.35/.55

    Greatsword and Billhook

    Greatsword

    attack1/80/cut/.5/.65/.6/.8
    attack2/90/cut/.5/.65/.6/.85
    attack3/70/pierce/.7/.75/.45/.9

    Billhook

    attack1/70/cut/.55/.7/.55/.65
    attack2/75/cut/.55/.7/.55/.7
    attack3/70/cut/.6/.7/.4/.6

    The greatsword has longer, faster and more powerful slashing attacks and the billhook has a longer, faster stab. Obviously, part of that is quite backwards i.e. more powerful and/or longer attacks are supposed to be slower and faster attacks are supposed to weaker and/or shorter. Well, the greatsword has completely superior slashing attacks and the billhook has a completely superior stab. This makes the balance between them very odd so I think it should be in a more sensible way. So the solution should be to simply swap the windups of the two weapons.

    Daggers

    Broad Dagger
    Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    Attack1 : 35 Cut F: 100 = 0.35/0.5/0.3/0.4 = 1.05
    Attack2 : 40 Pierce F: 100 = 0.35/0.5/0.3/0.425 = 1.075
    Attack3 : 35 Pierce F: 100 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.45 = 1
    Reach : 21

    Hunting Knife
    Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    Attack1 : 40 cut F: 100 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.4 = 0.95
    Attack2 : 45 cut F: 100 = 0.325/0.5/0.3/0.425 = 1.05
    Attack3 : 30 Pierce F: 100 = 0.35/0.5/0.35/0.4 = 1.1
    Reach : 28

    Thrusting Dagger
    Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    Attack1 : 30 Cut F: 100 = 0.35/0.5/0.35/0.4 = 1.1
    Attack2 : 50 Pierce F: 100 = 0.325/0.525/0.35/0.425 = 1.1
    Attack3 : 45 Pierce F: 100 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.45 = 1

    I think the hunting knife and broad dagger are still completely inferior to the thrusting dagger.

    My suggestions:

    ! Broad Dagger
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 50 Cut F: 100 = 0.35/0.5/0.3/0.4 = 1.05
    ! Attack2 : 45Pierce F: 100 = 0.35/0.5/0.3/0.425 = 1.075
    ! Attack3 : 35 Pierce F: 100 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.45 = 1
    !
    ! This makes the broad dagger a very flexible dagger. It 5 shots knights with slashes, OHs and a combonation of OHs and stabs work as well. This makes it a slightly longer, slightly faster but 1 more HTK weapon compared to the thrusting dagger.
    !
    ! Hunting Knife
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 40 cut F: 100 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.4 = 0.95
    ! Attack2 : 45 cut F: 100 = 0.325/0.5/0.3/0.425 = 1.05
    ! Attack3 : 30 Pierce F: 100 = 0.35/0.5/0.35/0.4 = 1.1
    !
    ! The OH damage increase is necessary, I think, currently, the minimum HTK against knights is 7. Having 45 damage on the OH will not only let the OH 6 shot knights but it will be synergizable with slashes for a 6 shot against knights.

    Man at Arms

    All right, here comes the most subjective discussion. Now, my opinion is that MaA are in need of no dodge, the source of many heated discussions and bugs. I think that, simply, if we make MaA fast enough, they won’t need a dodge. I have two suggestions:

    #1

    ! Make MaA sidestep and backstep speeds much faster as well as the regular walk and increase the MaA run speed 25-40% faster than the current speed.
    !
    ! The idea is that if we make them backpedal and sidestep faster it will make them very slippery and hard to get a hold of in duels and the run speed giving their super fast MaA weapons very high amounts of reach and making the much evasive in the process. This would make them balanced in both duels and team play. And it would make the class much more skillful, which is what it needs right now. Having such good reach and attack speeds would let them target switch incredibly well and they’d be the ultimate harrassers, weaving through teams interrupting all the enemies’ attacks.

    #2

    ! Now you might’ve said, “Well, that might work(or not) but it gets rid of the MaA special ability”. Well, here’s my second and favored idea:
    !
    ! -Remove dodge
    ! -Increase sprint speed by 25-40%
    ! -Allow MaA to sprint in all directions with a speed penalty depending on the direction and it would take 5 stamina every second whilst sprinting backwards or sideways.
    !
    ! Basically, somewhat accomplishing exactly what the last suggestion did but letting the MaA have his own special ability.

    With both of these suggestions you will still be able to evade attacks, just not as piss easy as with dodge. Now, when you post you opinion in the comments, I want all of you to legitimately take it into consideration, think about it seriously and post an unbiased response.

    Halberd

    Why is it that no matter how well I drag my slashes and OHs thos stubborn polearm doesn’t ever let it work, only with a early parry. The releases are .6 so, in theory, they’re draggable but I just can get it to work no matter what.

    Polearm instaOHs

    I’m getting pretty tired of this, plain and simple. Here’s a suggestion to eliminte it.

    ! What if the damaging hit tracers of polearm OHs didn’t appear until the first 150ms of release ended?

    Thank you all for reading. I’d like to hear all our your opinions and/or different suggestions.



  • I think the 1H LS and messer should remain the same. 1H messer is one of my favourite things to do with no shield and the longsword is what I use with a shield. They are supposed to be slower than wih two hands as its harder to swing and combo with only one hand. The SOW should get sped up. But not by that but.

    The bills hook and greatsword are two different classes of weapons. Pole arms are just good at stabbing. The billhook when you have to use an LMB isn’t as great as the longsword. Stabs have to be precise. Also stas don’t have that flexibly that overheads and LMBs do.

    With daggers I was actually thinking a slight nerf to the thrusting dagger. Daggers are the hardest weapons to block in this game. And your buffs brings them to the same level as the shortsword and sabre. Just way faster but shorter.

    Remove MAA dodge? No. I like them dodging I use it to my advantage to kill them. Especially since they made it so you can’t windup then dodge. Swing and miss combo. Maybe you could make their side and back movements speeds a little faster. But not their foward movement speed. They move fast enough as it is. A 40% increase is massive. And a knight using the chase bonus on one would just look redicoulous.



  • @Jstorm:

    Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, yet another balance discussion.

    Some people just like to talk about numbers. There are no more balance changes coming though. Either a new (real) expansion or a new game.



  • @gregcau:

    @Jstorm:

    Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, yet another balance discussion.

    Some people just like to talk about numbers.

    That’s me C:

    There are no more balance changes coming though. Either a new (real) expansion or a new game.

    Srs? aww man :,(



  • @lemonater47:

    I think the 1H LS and messer should remain the same. 1H messer is one of my favourite things to do with no shield and the longsword is what I use with a shield. They are supposed to be slower than wih two hands as its harder to swing and combo with only one hand. The SOW should get sped up. But not by that but.

    The 1h Bastard swords aren’t balanced. No one uses them competitively, ever, they sre just way too slow for their damage. I based my speed buffs off of the broadsword, norse sword, and falchion. The 1H LS nd broad, 1H SOW and norse, 1H Messer and falchion all have very, very similar HTKs. The difference is speed and reach. On my 1H LS I made it combo much slower and it has a much slower stab and OH windup than the broadsword. The 1H SoW, actually, has a worse HTK than the norse so I found it acceptable to give it similar combo times but it also has much, much slower windups than the norse. The 1h Messer is practically as fast as the 2H messer, if not slower, having slower windups but faster combos whilst lacking in a lot of damage and reach.

    The bills hook and greatsword are two different classes of weapons. Pole arms are just good at stabbing. The billhook when you have to use an LMB isn’t as great as the longsword. Stabs have to be precise. Also stas don’t have that flexibly that overheads and LMBs do.

    Your arguement is invalid. Polearms are good at stabbing, yes, that’s why the halberd stab is so damn slow i.e. it’s the best stab that can combo. Also, if you think it makes sense for such a long sword to swing faster than a billhook then Idk what to think of you. The billhook gives you much more leverage than a sword where you can only hold it at the hilt.

    With daggers I was actually thinking a slight nerf to the thrusting dagger. Daggers are the hardest weapons to block in this game. And your buffs brings them to the same level as the shortsword and sabre. Just way faster but shorter.

    Saying a weapon is imbalance because of the difficulty to block or lack thereof is no way at all to determine balance. That’s like saying the maul is UP because it’s so easy to block.

    Remove MAA dodge? No. I like them dodging I use it to my advantage to kill them. Especially since they made it so you can’t windup then dodge. Swing and miss combo. Maybe you could make their side and back movements speeds a little faster. But not their foward movement speed. They move fast enough as it is. A 40% increase is massive. And a knight using the chase bonus on one would just look redicoulous.

    The problem with dodge is that its piss easy to use and it gives you initiative. Also, I said 25-40% but idk how 25 would work out in gameplay. Just rough numbers, the idea is use mobility as a replacement for dodge. On top of that you failed to follow what I meantion at the end. Saying “I like them dodging” is a stupid thing to say, also incredibly biased.



  • Dodge doesn’t give you intiative anymore, ever since the dodge-attack change.



  • Dodge doesn’t give you intiative anymore, ever since the dodge-attack change.

    Forcing the enemy to either parry or combo and get hit is initiative.



  • Dodging doesn’t always give them the initiative. Dodging wastes their stamina and can get them ito trouble as easily as getting them out of trouble. You can bait them in. Even the skilled and experiances ones fall for your tricks at least once. If he dodges away from one of your attacks he loses more stamin than you. If he dodges foward and attacks he uses more stamina than you.

    Make a man at arms over confident and waste his dodge. And since then made it so you have to windup part way through dodge the swing and miss combo is just brilliant. You make them dodge in and as they windup you hit them. Worst case scenario is a hit trade. Only happens if you did it late or they stab you with a mace. Though they come out worse off. They hardly ever parry it. Even then they lose half their stamin from the dodge, feint and parry. Mouse dragging works wonders with them too.

    And the billhook is supposed to be Fast and short. I would use the bardiche over the billhook anyday. Its a matter of preference not numbers. A halberd still beats it becuase of its range, knockbacm and speed. Its fast enough to keep a billhook at bay. I see more people using polehammers. Similar times to the halberd similar length as a billhook and as much damage as a bardiche with a billhook stab. The billhook is excellent against archers and MAAs. But not that great against other vanguards and it takes 3-4 hits for a knight.

    And difficulty to block does come into balance. As their stab and slash attacks get parked inte same place as every other weapon on the game. But the daggers 3rd attack is different. It can get above parries without any mouse movement. An its so damn fast. Buffing all the daggers wouldn’t do anything ecept
    Make all the daggers overpowered.

    Rethinking the 1H swords I suppose you could change the windup of the messer and possibly the release to Make it faster. The SOW should be like you said. The longsword should be sped up but not as much as you say. It won’t fix the problem otherwise. People would just use it over the SOW.

    The games is made for large 32 player public games. Not for 5v5 scrims.



  • Dodging doesn’t always give them the initiative. Dodging wastes their stamina and can get them ito trouble as easily as getting them out of trouble. You can bait them in. Even the skilled and experiances ones fall for your tricks at least once. If he dodges away from one of your attacks he loses more stamin than you. If he dodges foward and attacks he uses more stamina than you.

    Make a man at arms over confident and waste his dodge. And since then made it so you have to windup part way through dodge the swing and miss combo is just brilliant. You make them dodge in and as they windup you hit them. Worst case scenario is a hit trade. Only happens if you did it late or they stab you with a mace. Though they come out worse off. They hardly ever parry it. Even then they lose half their stamin from the dodge, feint and parry. Mouse dragging works wonders with them too.

    Your tactics against MAA only work if he fucks up. Dependence of the enemy fucking up doesn’t make it a valid tactic.

    And the billhook is supposed to be Fast and short. I would use the bardiche over the billhook anyday. Its a matter of preference not numbers. A halberd still beats it becuase of its range, knockbacm and speed. Its fast enough to keep a billhook at bay. I see more people using polehammers. Similar times to the halberd similar length as a billhook and as much damage as a bardiche with a billhook stab. The billhook is excellent against archers and MAAs. But not that great against other vanguards and it takes 3-4 hits for a knight.

    This is a very subjective paragraph as many people find the billhook to be the best vanguard weapon than can combo; likewise, other people find the greatsword the best. I don’t understand why you even said, “the billhook is supposed to be fast and short”, that only approves my opinion. The billhook, currently, has shorter, slower and weaker slashing attacks. So, should it not have the faster slash and OH?

    And difficulty to block does come into balance. As their stab and slash attacks get parked inte same place as every other weapon on the game. But the daggers 3rd attack is different. It can get above parries without any mouse movement. An its so damn fast. Buffing all the daggers wouldn’t do anything ecept
    Make all the daggers overpowered.

    Not blocking an attack is also reliance on the enemy screwing up.



  • Just on the billhook;
    Its got such a wide sweep and combos so nicely that it doesn’t matter that its not super fast. Overall its a pretty good weapon and has a nice stab. Its the overall functionality of the weapon that makes it good, not its speed.

    Having said that MaA can dodge and skip around players and flank them quite easily now, theres not much risk involved for the MaA because dodge is relatively cheap on stamina cost now, so it is not very hard for the MaA to rinse and repeat this process until he wins. A good MaA can even get around the billhooks wide sweep and it’s combo is not fast enough to catch MaA’s when they change direction.
    If you were to try and balance the billhook with increased speed against the MaA dodge then it would make the billhook broken in all other parts of the game.

    So IMO dodge should just get out and be gone; it does not fit the games theme and its just a waste of time and effort trying to balance it against everything else. Increase the movement speed of the MaA to a point where he can zip around and dance around his opponents that way. The game will be better off for it (in so many ways) to no end.



  • Having said that MaA can dodge and skip around players and flank them quite easily now, theres not much risk involved for the MaA because dodge is relatively cheap on stamina cost now, so it is not very hard for the MaA to rinse and repeat this process until he wins. A good MaA can even get around the billhooks wide sweep and it’s combo is not fast enough to catch MaA’s when they change direction.

    Everything you say here is true but it also suits the problem I have with the billhook. Basically, the billhook has a very OP stab but very crappy slash and OHs. The greatsword has very OP slashes and OHs but a very crappy stab. The way these two weapons are balanced is very odd, in my opinion, and it also makes sense that the billhook has weaker, faster, and shorter OHs and slashes and the greatsword to have a faster but shorter stab. I really think swapping the windups of these two weapons would make them much more balanced, no more or less balanced but more balanced in the sense of how the weapon should function.



  • @Jstorm:

    Everything you say here is true but it also suits the problem I have with the billhook. Basically, the billhook has a very OP stab but very crappy slash and OHs. The greatsword has very OP slashes and OHs but a very crappy stab. The way these two weapons are balanced is very odd, in my opinion, and it also makes sense that the billhook has weaker, faster, and shorter OHs and slashes and the greatsword to have a faster but shorter stab. I really think swapping the windups of these two weapons would make them much more balanced, no more or less balanced but more balanced in the sense of how the weapon should function.

    Hmmm, but the great sword is pretty unwieldy compared to the billhook and you hold the great sword by one end so to speak, so its going to be harder to stab with then the billhook where both ands can be spread out for better control. But then i’m not sure in what way your saying the great sword’s stab is crappy.

    The billhook is so versatile with how much area you can quickly speed the blade through, so even though you consider its slash and OH crappy you can land so many hits quickly and easily (relatively) that it can be pretty serious :O.
    I bound the alternate overhead to a separate key on the keyboard which is really handy on pole arms. It makes it hard for your enemy because the attack can be an underhand / overhead/ from the left or right / or a stab. So if the MaA isn’t pretty special you can catch him out pretty easily. Good MaA are better at controlling the fight though and can force you to face one way just before they dodge to the other side.



  • @giantyak:

    @Jstorm:

    Everything you say here is true but it also suits the problem I have with the billhook. Basically, the billhook has a very OP stab but very crappy slash and OHs. The greatsword has very OP slashes and OHs but a very crappy stab. The way these two weapons are balanced is very odd, in my opinion, and it also makes sense that the billhook has weaker, faster, and shorter OHs and slashes and the greatsword to have a faster but shorter stab. I really think swapping the windups of these two weapons would make them much more balanced, no more or less balanced but more balanced in the sense of how the weapon should function.

    Hmmm, but the great sword is pretty unwieldy compared to the billhook and you hold the great sword by one end so to speak, so its going to be harder to stab with then the billhook where both ands can be spread out for better control. But then i’m not sure in what way your saying the great sword’s stab is crappy.

    The greatsword stab really isn’t that great at all. .7 windup, .75 combo, .45 release, .9 recovery and it’s reach doesn’t compensate for the slow speed at all. It’s almost halberd stab speed that’s wayyy shorter.

    The billhook is so versatile with how much area you can quickly speed the blade through, so even though you consider its slash and OH crappy you can land so many hits quickly and easily (relatively) that it can be pretty serious :O.
    I bound the alternate overhead to a separate key on the keyboard which is really handy on pole arms. It makes it hard for your enemy because the attack can be an underhand / overhead/ from the left or right / or a stab. So if the MaA isn’t pretty special you can catch him out pretty easily. Good MaA are better at controlling the fight though and can force you to face one way just before they dodge to the other side.

    Idk man, the speed of the greatswords OHs and slashes combined with the area they can control and the damage combined is pretty absurd.



  • @Jstorm:

    Dodge doesn’t give you intiative anymore, ever since the dodge-attack change.

    Forcing the enemy to either parry or combo and get hit is initiative.

    How?

    First-strike = initiative.

    Range = initiative.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @Jstorm:

    Dodge doesn’t give you intiative anymore, ever since the dodge-attack change.

    Forcing the enemy to either parry or combo and get hit is initiative.

    How?

    First-strike = initiative.

    Range = initiative.

    Dodge back, run in and hit = initiative.



  • @NabsterHax:

    @NoVaLombardia:

    @Jstorm:

    Forcing the enemy to either parry or combo and get hit is initiative.

    How?

    First-strike = initiative.

    Range = initiative.

    Dodge back, run in and hit = initiative.

    I don’t let them do that. I make them dodge back run in and either force them to parry or take a hit.

    Helicopter vanguard beats MAA.



  • @lemonater47:

    @NabsterHax:

    Dodge back, run in and hit = initiative.

    I don’t let them do that. I make them dodge back run in and either force them to parry or take a hit.

    Helicopter vanguard beats MAA.

    How many times do I have to tell you, reliance on the enemy fucking up doesn’t make it a tactic. Also, you say you make then parry your attack, well, if you didn’t realize it but that’s handing over the control of the fight to him.



  • @Jstorm:

    @lemonater47:

    @NabsterHax:

    Dodge back, run in and hit = initiative.

    I don’t let them do that. I make them dodge back run in and either force them to parry or take a hit.

    Helicopter vanguard beats MAA.

    How many times do I have to tell you, reliance on the enemy fucking up doesn’t make it a tactic. Also, you say you make then parry your attack, well, if you didn’t realize it but that’s handing over the control of the fight to him.

    Well they fuck up 70% of the time and doesn’t hinder me 95% of the time it makes it a pretty darn good tactic.

    Everything can be parried and avoided. Not doing so is fucking up. And that’s how everyone gets their kills.



  • @lemonater47:

    Well they fuck up 70% of the time and doesn’t hinder me 95% of the time it makes it a pretty darn good tactic.

    You mustn’t fight anyone good.

    Everything can be parried and avoided. Not doing so is fucking up. And that’s how everyone gets their kills.

    This is true but when I was saying, “they fucked up” I was talking about them doing something stupid like panic dodging or just dodging when they shouldn’t have.



  • @Jstorm:

    @lemonater47:

    Well they fuck up 70% of the time and doesn’t hinder me 95% of the time it makes it a pretty darn good tactic.

    You mustn’t fight anyone good.

    Everything can be parried and avoided. Not doing so is fucking up. And that’s how everyone gets their kills.

    This is true but when I was saying, “they fucked up” I was talking about them doing something stupid like panic dodging or just dodging when they shouldn’t have.

    Well a good player would often learn and not try doing that for some time.

    It stops them dodging though pretty much.

    And hardly anyone does what I do. So they often forget who I am and try the same move again. As it works on most other people such as yourself. But not on me.

    And if it doesn’t work all they do is hang back. It’s all they can do.


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