Polearm insta-OH solution



  • @Retsnom:

    if you did this you would have to do the same for all long swords as well. one of the problems in the game is the lack of accurate physics. If you got hit early by a pole arm along the shaft it would still do significant blunt damage. Don’t believe me, go and have someone hit you with a broom stick close to his hands. But the amount of damage would be far less than the damage at the end of the pole arm where maximum velocity and damage occurs. I believe that they have tried to implement a varying damage along the length of these weapons and you can see this with the swing trace and the different colors doing different damage. Still though the best offense is a better defense I really dont think that the OH is all that instant with pole arms compared to some of the long swords. Even still, I dont think that it is really a big enough issue that it would require a mechanic change where skill and experience can over come it. If anything the parrying system needs to be improved.

    Obviously, you don’t fully understand the issue.



  • @Jstorm:

    @Retsnom:

    if you did this you would have to do the same for all long swords as well. one of the problems in the game is the lack of accurate physics. If you got hit early by a pole arm along the shaft it would still do significant blunt damage. Don’t believe me, go and have someone hit you with a broom stick close to his hands. But the amount of damage would be far less than the damage at the end of the pole arm where maximum velocity and damage occurs. I believe that they have tried to implement a varying damage along the length of these weapons and you can see this with the swing trace and the different colors doing different damage. Still though the best offense is a better defense I really dont think that the OH is all that instant with pole arms compared to some of the long swords. Even still, I dont think that it is really a big enough issue that it would require a mechanic change where skill and experience can over come it. If anything the parrying system needs to be improved.

    Obviously, you don’t fully understand the issue.

    Actually I finally agree with Retsnom for once.

    They aren’t instant overheads. The reason why is becuase of the windup.

    And he’s it would still hurt. Greatly. Considering a its square not circular like a broomstick, is heavier and has a weight on the end and the guy is actually trying to kill you with it. Wearing heavy armour would mean the weapon would pretty much do the same damage to you if it hit you on the shaft or the buisness end.

    I haven’t looked at polearms tracers for a long time. But I do remember that be tracer starts in front of he shaft pretty much in line with the blade which sticks out.



  • They aren’t instant overheads. The reason why is becuase of the windup.

    They hit instantaneously after windup, like a stab. That’s why stab windups are so slow. On top of that you don’t anticipate being hit by the handle in this game. You’re waiting for the blade to come around to you. By handle hits do you guys think I meant the shaft? If you did then you’re both idiots.

    http://www.tornbanner.com/forums/viewto … e2b435a814



  • glad you feel that way but you are sadly mistaken. They are far from instant. I play halberd 90% of the time since day 1. Trust me when I tell you that they nerfed the shit out of it and with the last patch, they slowed down the look down speed after the attack has started. It is far from instant. Yes you can speed it up some but no where near what you could two patches ago. So get some skills and start anticipating it more and your parrys will be more effective. Granted the bubble has screwed up enough and more likely to blame for a failed parry than the “instant” OH….



  • @Retsnom:

    glad you feel that way but you are sadly mistaken. They are far from instant. I play halberd 90% of the time since day 1. Trust me when I tell you that they nerfed the shit out of it and with the last patch, they slowed down the look down speed after the attack has started. It is far from instant. Yes you can speed it up some but no where near what you could two patches ago. So get some skills and start anticipating it more and your parrys will be more effective. Granted the bubble has screwed up enough and more likely to blame for a failed parry than the “instant” OH….

    You are you really dumb. When I say instant and I have already explained that I mean the very instant windup ends and the butt of the handle starts inside of you, dealing full damage. A halberd handle hit has about the speed of a morning star crouch look down overhead, possibly faster. Sorry, but I’m not having that, if you are dumb enough to think this was intended and a bug an arrogant enough to say it’s the enemy’s fault to get hit by a handle hit when you aren’t even good, then idk why I’m even arguing with you.



  • They should just have hit tracers that make sense relative to the attack.
    The hit tracer shouldn’t be active until the attack has momentum.
    I think that’s what you’re trying to get at with the whole 150ms deal.
    Except this should be, or rather should HAVE been done with all weapons in the first place to prevent being hit from behind with a horizontal strike.



  • The thing is, because the damage doesn’t come until after windup, you have plenty of time to react to a lookdown OH. If you see them doing a lookdown OH with a polearm and they are facehugging you, you know the damage will come out right after release.

    The reason the damage comes so quick with the polearms has to do with the animation and tracers. When the windup window is finished, the weapon is further along the swing path than some other weapons. It doesn’t mean it’s going to hit you sooner than other weapons of similar speed, it just means after the flinch window has passed, it will hit you sooner.

    What kind of implication does this have in practice? The first one that comes to my mind, is that if your going to try and trade blows with a polearm user doing a lookdown OH, you have a smaller window to avoid being flinched.

    It isn’t really about a broken mechanic. The damage doesn’t happen until after windup. It’s an issue of weapon balance. Some people seem the think all the polearms are slow weapons like knight maces/axes. Sure some of them are, but the Billhook for example is actually quite quick, but it doesn’t do that much damage.

    If you want to remove these “instant” damage lookdown OHs, it really comes down to, do you want to nerf polearms? Maybe they should be nerfed.



  • No if this would only apply to Polearm overheads (consistency please - especially in mechanics). No if this would also remove interaction with parries and environment (in this case you are just increasing the unfeintable window). Yes to a window in early release that does reduced damage (no damage is also reduced damage).

    I suggested something similar - weapon collision during windup. Your idea might turn out less clunky though.



  • The thing is, given the right circumstances, all the 2H weapons and most 1H weapons in the game can do instant damage once windup is over. I really don’t see this specifically as a polearm problem. If polearms being able to do damage immediately after windup is an issue that needs fixing, then pretty much every weapon in the game needs fixing.



  • The thing is polearms are faster to hit this way because of the way they are held (a part of the weapon will always be in front of you).

    While accelerated overheads with swords are somewhat realistic on polearms its like holding a stick between your hands and then pushing it forward into your enemy - dealing the same damage as if you hit him with a giant axe head. Its not really a balance issue (they are still slow and you can learn the timings) but it breaks immersion.



  • If what lemonator says about the tracers being in line with the blade, it might be what is causing poles OH lookdowns to seemingly hit sooner than they should. Possibly altering the tracer during the beginning of release to be at the shaft of the weapon instead of the blade might slightly delay when it hits.



  • @dpunk:

    If what lemonator says about the tracers being in line with the blade, it might be what is causing poles OH lookdowns to seemingly hit sooner than they should. Possibly altering the tracer during the beginning of release to be at the shaft of the weapon instead of the blade might slightly delay when it hits.

    I don’t think you know what we’re talking about. The instant OHs happen because when we hold polearms in the beginning of release with the butt of the handle sticking out that has fully damaging tracers and that butt of the handle, under the right circumstances, can start inside of the enemy and hit instantaneously after windup ends like a facehug stab, which is one of the reasons for why stab windups are so slow. When you’re fighting a polearm and the enemy used an OH, naturally, you wait for the blade to come over his head and hit you(unless you parry it) not for the butt of his handle to start inside of your chest and cut your arm off somehow. This is fairly unpredictable as well.



  • Ok well if that is the case then it would be a problem. Wouldn’t this make it unblockable in certain cases though? I haven’t really noticed specifically not being able to block/parry those attacks. Then again, I haven’t tested in a controlled setting.



  • I tested against some bots and wasn’t able to notice what was being described in this thread. I’ve included a picture of a tracer. The tracer shows a crouch lookdown OH even though my character isn’t crouched when the screenshot was taken. While the attacks against the bots showed that the hit happened fairly quickly after release, it didn’t really show that the handle started inside the bots character model. Of course it would be better to test against a real player that isn’t moving/trying to kill me.

    If someone wants to do some tests in game add me on steam dpunk/benedictOrange.

    Looking at the tracer in the picture, it may be possible for instant damage after release to happen if the target is standing to the right of the polearm users model. But the bubble may prevent this, again would be better to test against a player.



  • @dpunk:

    I tested against some bots and wasn’t able to notice what was being described in this thread. I’ve included a picture of a tracer. The tracer shows a crouch lookdown OH even though my character isn’t crouched when the screenshot was taken. While the attacks against the bots showed that the hit happened fairly quickly after release, it didn’t really show that the handle started inside the bots character model. Of course it would be better to test against a real player that isn’t moving/trying to kill me.

    If someone wants to do some tests in game add me on steam dpunk/benedictOrange.

    Looking at the tracer in the picture, it may be possible for instant damage after release to happen if the target is standing to the right of the polearm users model. But the bubble may prevent this, again would be better to test against a player.

    This really isn’t a debatable bug. It’s a real problem but I guess I could show you in game.



  • I suggest you enable poll re-voting in case someone changes their mind.

    I still haven’t tested yet, so you can add me on steam for when it would be convenient to test.

    edit:

    So I’ve done some additional tests. I’ve found that the halberd does in fact hit during the first tick of the tracer and that it is the handle that hits the target, as has been claimed by some people in this thread. There isn’t a reliable way for me to get an accurate picture at the very momment this happens. But using the aoc_slomo command I was able to tell that damage happens either at/almost at the exact same moment the damage tracers appear.


    This picture gives a better view of the damage tracers for a OH with a halberd. As you can see the tracer starts nearly at the tip of the handle. When I tested against peasants(do they have the new bubble?) when I was facehugging, the handle started inside the model of the peasant once windup was finished. I was also able to show that crouching was not needed to perform.

    Once again, it isn’t an optimized test, but if someone can confirm peasants have the same bubble as a player character, then I think it’s proof that damage can be applied instantly after windup.

    The next question is, is this actually a problem? It’s not actually a bad question sense most all weapons have the ability to do this[instant damage] after windup with certain attacks. The most obvious would be LMB attacks if the target is standing right where the tracer starts.

    Another question is, can most weapons do this with OH attacks? I don’t think so, but I haven’t tested this. If not, then at that point, OH lookdowns with polearms would probably be a valid concern with regards to weapon balance.

    Also, the quick damaging OH lookdowns is one of the reason people choose to use the Halberd. While I think most people consider it a viable weapon, I don’t think most consider it OP. Removing this ability would certainly be a nerf. If removing these instant OH happens, should the Halberd be buffed in another way? I use the term Halberd only because I haven’t tested if these instant attacks apply to all polearms.

    What would be my suggestion?
    If I were the one to come up with a solution to this problem, it would be to remove the damage tracer from the halberd underneath the hands and at the hands. I don’t believe these instant attacks would happen with the Halberd in this case. Also, follow up be giving the Halberd some kind of buff to compensate. Also, follow up with testing for balance after the changes before being put on live.



  • After further tests against players, I can confirm that the damage against a player does happen instantly after windup is finished. And because the angel of the halberd, the halberd head starts away from the opponent, the damage comes from the handle of the weapon.

    I really don’t see an issue with a weapon doing damage so quickly after windup is finished, in regards to weapon balance. But this mechanic seems broken because the damage comes from the handle of the weapon.



  • Not sure if it has to be 150ms but the idea by itself is fine



  • @afiNity:

    Not sure if it has to be 150ms but the idea by itself is fine

    That’s really the variable. It doesn’t have to be that amount of time.



  • I still don’t see the big issue. You have to be so close to even accomplish this that the bubble makes it very difficult to do it consistently if at all. With many real world pole arms, had blades at the handle end much like the quarter staff would could and did do end damage. The fix? Keep your damn distance…

    This is really a non issue.


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