Weapon talk : Shields



  • Pavise Shield

    ! Pavise Shield
    ! Plant time : 1.1
    ! Size : 85%
    ! Unique : Can be planted to ground for cover
    ! Special : Only useful as passive shield on back

    Buckler Shield

    ! Buckler Shield
    ! Block Strenght : 4
    ! Time to lower shield : 0.2
    ! Stamina Drain : 2.5
    ! Size : 45%
    ! Unique : Different attack style
    ! Special : Can use shield bashes and perform hold blocks

    Heater Shield

    ! Heater Shield
    ! Block Strenght : 4.5
    ! Time to lower shield : 0.25
    ! Stamina Drain : 3
    ! Size : 65%
    ! Unique :
    ! Special : Can use shield bashes and Hold blocks

    Kite Shield

    ! Kite Shield
    ! Block Strenght : 5
    ! Time to lower shield : 0.3
    ! Stamina Drain : 3.5
    ! Size : 75%
    ! Unique :
    ! Special : Can use shield bashes and Hold blocks

    Tower Shield

    ! Shield
    ! Block Strenght : 6
    ! Time to lower shield : 0.35
    ! Stamina Drain : 4
    ! Size : 90%
    ! Unique :
    ! Special : Can use shield bashes and Hold blocks

    The values here might be incorrect.

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535



  • Firstly what’s “parry strength”? Is this something to do with knockback, ie. the higher the parry strength the lower the knockback?

    Secondly to balance.

    I’m a big advocate of improving shields for melee combat, especially for Knights. MaAs have dodge so are less reliant on shields whereas Knights “special ability” is that they can use bastard swords with shields and get the big shields as well as more stamina, supposedly.

    So I suggest that Kite and Tower need a boost: stamina drain values should be much higher for these two shields and possibly parry strength, depending on what that is.

    EDIT: I think higher stamina drain **values **in this case would actually lower the stamina drain from being hit whilst using these shields.



  • Renamed ‘Parry’ with ‘Block’ to make it correct.



  • @wildwulfy:

    Renamed ‘Parry’ with ‘Block’ to make it correct.

    OK, but I still don’t know what “block strength” actually means.



  • Here is a example with a weapon with 10 strenght / parry negation, hitting a shield that has block strenght of 5, he will reduce the stamina cost of the block by 5(10-5=5)



  • They don’t seem to slow down people properly. (movement speed)



  • @wildwulfy:

    Here is a example with a weapon with 10 strenght / parry negation, hitting a shield that has block strenght of 5, he will reduce the stamina cost of the block by 5(10-5=5)

    Shield negation is actually a divisor based on damage and doesn’t use any of the weapon values related to parry stamina. So if you block a 100 damage attack with the kite shield (5 negation value), the stamina drain is 20.

    Stamina drain for shields refers to the stamina you lose every second your shield is held up past the initial 5 seconds, which are free.



  • The animations needs rework with shields as well. As you got shorter reach but the swings are a lot faster. which is complete and utter bogous. You shouldn’t be able to swing faster just because you’ve got a shield.



  • @Xylvion:

    The animations needs rework with shields as well. As you got shorter reach but the swings are a lot faster. which is complete and utter bogous. You shouldn’t be able to swing faster just because you’ve got a shield.

    +1

    It’s complete utter bullshit to fight a good maa with HWS or Norse sword with a shield, since they strike so fucking fast and they can just dodge away if you kick their shield.



  • @SlyGoat:

    @wildwulfy:

    Here is a example with a weapon with 10 strenght / parry negation, hitting a shield that has block strenght of 5, he will reduce the stamina cost of the block by 5(10-5=5)

    Shield negation is actually a divisor based on damage and doesn’t use any of the weapon values related to parry stamina. So if you block a 100 damage attack with the kite shield (5 negation value), the stamina drain is 20.

    Stamina drain for shields refers to the stamina you lose every second your shield is held up past the initial 5 seconds, which are free.

    OK, then in that case block strength should be increased for kite and tower shields. Let Knights be tanks.



  • @Dr:

    OK, then in that case block strength should be increased for kite and tower shields. Let Knights be tanks.

    I raise a mug of the tastiest mead to that.

    Shields need a bounce back defensively. Not being able to counter attack is just fine, even getting stunned for obscene amounts of time upon being kicked is alright, but let us tank. Blocking multitudes of blows in beta was a hell of a good time.



  • @SlyGoat:

    @wildwulfy:

    Here is a example with a weapon with 10 strenght / parry negation, hitting a shield that has block strenght of 5, he will reduce the stamina cost of the block by 5(10-5=5)

    Shield negation is actually a divisor based on damage and doesn’t use any of the weapon values related to parry stamina. So if you block a 100 damage attack with the kite shield (5 negation value), the stamina drain is 20.

    Stamina drain for shields refers to the stamina you lose every second your shield is held up past the initial 5 seconds, which are free.

    Thanks! Does anyone know the corresponding values for parrying?



  • @Animastryfe:

    @SlyGoat:

    @wildwulfy:

    Here is a example with a weapon with 10 strenght / parry negation, hitting a shield that has block strenght of 5, he will reduce the stamina cost of the block by 5(10-5=5)

    Shield negation is actually a divisor based on damage and doesn’t use any of the weapon values related to parry stamina. So if you block a 100 damage attack with the kite shield (5 negation value), the stamina drain is 20.

    Stamina drain for shields refers to the stamina you lose every second your shield is held up past the initial 5 seconds, which are free.

    Thanks! Does anyone know the corresponding values for parrying?

    Parrying is weapon dependent. Every weapon has a unique value for how much stamina damage is negated when parrying, and a unique value for stamina damage on each of its attacks. Generally speaking, if a medium “weight” weapon blocks another medium “weight” weapon, the stamina drain is around 12. The minimum for stamina drain on a parry is 8, and the maximum is 25 (maul vs. dagger). Also - again, generally speaking - swords have higher stamina absorption but lower stamina damage, while axes and maces have lower stamina absorption but higher stamina damage, and spears/polearms/quarterstaff are between the two, to somewhat simulate the weight distribution and balance of said weapons (easier to parry blows with a balanced weapon like a sword, but their light weight in turn makes them easier to absorb); but the difference is usually pretty small (1-4 points compared to weapons of similar size). Stamina damage also increases more with weight than stamina absorption does, so a maul will still drain a good portion of stamina from another maul and won’t be completely immune to stamina drain from medium weight weapons.

    The exception to this is sprint attacks, which all drain 35 stamina when blocked by any means.



  • totally agree with everything in this thread



  • Everybody agrees that big shields shouldn’t drain so much stamina.

    Nobody thinks shields are OP or need such a high stamina drain.

    Yet we never hear anything about this issue, except “it wasn’t changed last patch”. Which is true but doesn’t take into account all the other stamina changes that came into effect in the last balance patch. Missed swings cost more stamina, knockback means you have to block big weapons multiple times before you can get close enough to attack which means more stamina drain, many big weapons got a damage buff which increases stamina drain, it’s even possible that the reduction to knight blunt resistance is causing blunt weapons to drain more stamina.

    After the last balance patch spears got a hotfix but not shields. Why are shields constantly nerfed?



  • Food for thought:
    -successful block stamina cost vs MaA dodge.
    If a heavy weapon is involved how can you say shield block is balanced vs MaA dodge - particularly in the scenario of javelin player with buckler.

    -Shield users have:
    reduced vision whilst blocking
    can be kick stunned when shield is up
    increased shield lift and drop time compared to parry
    So WHY is it necessary to cause stamina loss when shield is held up in the current environment where blocking with a shield already leads to rapid stamina loss.

    IMO the fact that a shield (not in the ‘block position’) causes damage to the player when IT is hit (honestly WTF… ok it can be accepted) is punishment enough for using a shield! There should be NO FURTHER penalty to shield users compared to parry. Especially as shields have their own inherant punishment: only being able to us 1h weapons and also reduced visibility during shield up time.

    IMO if you really wanted to balance shields against weapon parries you’d:
    -make it cost stamina each time you lift the shield to block (not for how long you hold block up) but make it cost more then weapon lift (parry) as shields are generally heavier than weapons
    -make it cost stamina for each ‘block’ taken but make this cost less then what it is for parry because shield are more efficient at deflecting energy the weapon parries.
    -make knock back on ALL weapons a function of its weight.
    -give stamina loss to weapon or shield when they are raised to block/parry based on their weight.
    -make stamina loss on successfull block OR parry a function of the weight of the object being used to block.

    Result:
    -weighty weapon hits or shield slams (be they blocked or not) cause knock back as they’re heavy.
    -weighty weapons and shields parry/block more effectively (less knock back) but the stamina cost is greater then smaller weapons.



  • @giantyak:

    -Shield users have:
    reduced vision whilst blocking
    can be kick stunned when shield is up
    increased shield lift and drop time compared to parry

    This I agree with.

    @giantyak:

    So WHY is it necessary to cause stamina loss when shield is held up in the current environment where blocking with a shield already leads to rapid stamina loss.

    I don’t seen this as a big problem, all you need to do is very quickly double tap block to lower and raise your shield for a second.

    @giantyak:

    IMO the fact that a shield (not in the ‘block position’) causes damage to the player when IT is hit (honestly WTF… ok it can be accepted) is punishment enough for using a shield! There should be NO FURTHER penalty to shield users compared to parry. Especially as shields have their own inherant punishment: only being able to us 1h weapons and also reduced visibility during shield up time.

    Agree

    @giantyak:

    IMO if you really wanted to balance shields against weapon parries you’d:
    -make it cost stamina each time you lift the shield to block (not for how long you hold block up) but make it cost more then weapon lift (parry) as shields are generally heavier than weapons

    Disagree, I think the current system is better.

    @giantyak:

    -make it cost stamina for each ‘block’ taken but make this cost less then what it is for parry because shield are more efficient at deflecting energy the weapon parries.

    The stamina drain for blocking with a shield should be much less than any weapon, particularly the big Knight shields. Shields are for blocking, weapons are not.
    @giantyak:

    -make knock back on ALL weapons a function of its weight.
    -give stamina loss to weapon or shield when they are raised to block/parry based on their weight.
    -make stamina loss on successfull block OR parry a function of the weight of the object being used to block.

    I don’t think “weight” is a great measure for these things, I’m not 100% sure what you mean by it.



  • @Dr:

    @giantyak:

    So WHY is it necessary to cause stamina loss when shield is held up in the current environment where blocking with a shield already leads to rapid stamina loss.

    I don’t seen this as a big problem, all you need to do is very quickly double tap block to lower and raise your shield for a second.

    What i mean is that if you are using a shield in combat you lose stamina significantly faster then your shield-less counterpart. I don’t think you should lose stamina per second for holding the shield in the ‘block’ position because you’re suffering the encumbrance of reduced visibility. You should be able to hold it there for as long as you want (to making a shield wall for eg - team play etc).

    @Dr:

    I don’t think “weight” is a great measure for these things, I’m not 100% sure what you mean by it.

    Well this kind of already exists in a way, but i think it should exist for weapons and shields alike.

    So what i’m saying is:
    Use one factor to apply for stamina loss in two ways and use the same method of stamina loss for block and for parry.
    The common factor is weapon/shield weight.

    Stamina loss scenario 1:
    you raise your shield/weapon to block or parry and lose a very small amount of stamina and this amount is based on the “weight” of the weapon/shield. EG a buckler is lighter then a knights kite shield so it should cost less stamina to raise to block position. Likewise a dagger is lighter to lift to parry position then a polehammer.
    This results in fixed stamina loss for each item in this scenario 1.

    Stamina loss scenario 2:
    A successful block or parry results in stamina loss based on the common factor of the shield or weapons weight. It is the weight of the item used to block/parry that has baring on how ‘easily’ you can deflect an incomming force.
    That said shields are more efficient at this task.
    This would also result in fixed stamina loss for each item.

    What this means so far is that if you have a light item for parrying or blocking you will be able to block/parry more freely. If you have a heavier weapon/shield you can not be as carefree with your parry/blocking, but then when you do successfully parry/block you loose less stamina compared to if you did so with a lighter item.

    Now to the final part; the weight of the weapon or shield on attacking:
    If you have a heavy shield or a heavy weapon your target is going to be impacted upon more heavily when you hit them whether they parry/block successfully or not. So heavier items should cause more knock back.



  • No shield buffs until they fix this:
    mcfv1SQN2Tw



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    No shield buffs until they fix this:

    I agree in principle, however it’s really the tiniest of margins; the difference is negligible. Does anyone know if this is with all shields or just the MaA shields?

    In actuality fixing these issues would require redoing all the animations for shields, but I think it’s probably a good idea because then they could finally allow the flail to be used with a heater shield or kite.

    I still think shields need a stamina fix (which is a fairly easy number change) rather than wait for TB to redo all the shield animations.


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