Feinting vs dragging… Really? There's a diffence??



  • @Torrenz:

    Feints are easier to execute, work slightly better from a distance, work with any weapon and are safer since the magic happens before release. You can always feint again and go into a parry if your opponent reads your move and you only lose some stamina instead of your health and initiative. Drags can be riskier if your opponent knows it’s coming; you’ll be aiming to hit at the end of release and hindering your own vision with the drag, so your attack can be ducked or strafed out of more easily. And although rare, fast onehanders can land something like a broadsword stab during your release and queue a combo parry before your slowed attack hits them.

    I think the reason any dragger would look down on a feinter despite both techniques accomplishing the same thing is that drags take more practice to use and defend against, whereas feints are… the more accessible tool. So one can perhaps presume that the guy you feinted would mock you because he thought higher of you.

    @Canadian:

    804 hrs played. Would be much larger I suppose if I left my comp logged in when I go to bed…… But I don’t…

    I wouldn’t have asked, but do you just leave Chivalry running with your computer then? If so your ingame rank might “matter” more.

    Ah Tor finally some debate and very much the same conversation I tried to have in chat in the round I mentioned. So… Dragging… ( turning your mouse ) requires more " Skill " then hitting a button? Anyway again I will state that there is no difference with regards to the intended out come of both moves but still find the hatered / Venom for feinting compared to dragging complexing.

    As to your question with regards to “time played” mine is exactly that … time played… And yes if you want to (pad) your hours simply leave your game running on the load screen and you to can boast 1600 hrs played… lol ahhhh… Kids now a days… ;o)

    T



  • Feinting and dragging are functionally the same. They’re used to get past your parry. One requires no stamina loss but that’s about it for major differences. I haven’t personally come across anyone who drags that complains about feints before as far as I can recall.

    It would be quite ironic if they did complain about feints though. That goes both ways if there is anyone out there that complains about drags and uses feints.



  • @Sidewinder:

    Feinting and dragging are functionally the same. They’re used to get past your parry. One requires no stamina loss but that’s about it for major differences. I haven’t personally come across anyone who drags that complains about feints before as far as I can recall.

    It would be quite ironic if they did complain about feints though. That goes both ways if there is anyone out there that complains about drags and uses feints.

    LOL exactly why I posted… Blew my mind. …. " how dare you feint, while I drag every other swing…"

    Anyway, Certainly don’t want to cause a Poop storm for a game I only play casually just found the irony / indignation too great to pass up.



  • Yeah, they are the same in that both are deceptive moves. Keep in mind that a drag is an attack, a feint is not. But drags are tad more difficult to pull off and especially difficult to aim (depends on weapon a bit). Slowing the weapon down isn’t hard, it’s aiming it once you have. Plus drags carry a different risk of their own when performing. With drags you often completely lose sight of the opponent (by looking up). Other than that, they’re the same in the sense that the opponent could just strike you when you’re performing either. I’m not saying drags are hard, but there’s a lot more to it than pressing a single button. The RISKS are similar though. A drag essentially is a feint and the attack all in one motion; a feint is just a fake-out. :)



  • @Canadian:

    Ah Tor finally some debate and very much the same conversation I tried to have in chat in the round I mentioned. So… Dragging… ( turning your mouse ) requires more " Skill " then hitting a button? Anyway again I will state that there is no difference with regards to the intended out come of both moves but still find the hatered / Venom for feinting compared to dragging complexing.

    “Turning your mouse” is oversimplifying the dragging method quite a bit. “Hitting a button” is not oversimplified, it’s all you do when you feint and hope for the best. As for “skill”, I think dragging is more technical precision and feinting is more mindgames, though I can see how a more pragmatic mind would think them alike.

    I agree that there’s little point in comparing the two or even “taking sides” when anyone can do both, but there’s a difference for sure.



  • @Torrenz:

    @Canadian:

    Ah Tor finally some debate and very much the same conversation I tried to have in chat in the round I mentioned. So… Dragging… ( turning your mouse ) requires more " Skill " then hitting a button? Anyway again I will state that there is no difference with regards to the intended out come of both moves but still find the hatered / Venom for feinting compared to dragging complexing.

    “Turning your mouse” is oversimplifying the dragging method quite a bit. “Hitting a button” is not oversimplified, it’s all you do when you feint and hope for the best. As for “skill”, I think dragging is more technical precision and feinting is more mindgames, though I can see how a more pragmatic mind would think them alike.

    I agree that there’s little point in comparing the two or even “taking sides” when anyone can do both, but there’s a difference for sure.

    Exactly. If you’re gonna go this far, you might as well compare drags to head fakes also…yeah, they’re all deceptive attacks, but some are more risky and require more touch. I’m basically saying there’s no good reason to single out the comparison between feints and drags.



  • It took me maybe 50 hours to truly become nearly immune to drags (besides the exceptional vanguard sword stab / messer drags) but in 910 hours I’m still unable to reliably defend against a properly executed feint (and doing a feint correctly is easier than a perfect drag).

    The only thing in favor of a drag is it doesn’t cost stamina, unless you miss which certainly can happen. It also leaves you vulnerable if you’re in first person due to how you have to move your screen to the side often.

    @Meow:

    @Canadian:

    LOL I hear you Meow. but really they both make you do the same thing… " block at the wrong time" I just found / find it rather silly that one is “ok” when the other isn’t.

    I getcha though.

    I personally find both “ok”.
    Ever since I started playing with Europeans, I’ve accepted feints and am now learning how to deal with them.
    I’ve seen some Europeans read feint after feint after feint, I believe because feints aren’t really considered “cheap” in EU, people tend to use them more. Because players tend to use them more, players learn how to read them. I have yet to see a NA player read feints like I’ve seen EU players do. Feints aren’t the problem, people who refuse to learn to read feints are the problem. (I’m surprised this is coming from me being that I used to hate feints)

    No, you’ve seen people who fight each other often predict when they will be used. You haven’t seen anyone defend directly against a feint from some unknown playing that they haven’t built a whole slew of patterns through many hours of dueling each other. It simply doesn’t happen.

    Maybe under perfection conditions with LAN level pings, maybe. Even then, they are significantly more potent than they should be. And, to stress, I’m not referring to quick flash feints, or feints from non-vanguard sword swings. Those can usually be read easily, even if held for a while, because accelerating a swing isn’t quite as effective as an overhead, and there’s much more room to see the weapon than from an up-close stab. Flash feints are self-explanatory. The same skill that allows me to read the majority of drags also lets me read flash feints, they aren’t being held long enough.

    @Canadian:

    @Torrenz:

    Feints are easier to execute, work slightly better from a distance, work with any weapon and are safer since the magic happens before release. You can always feint again and go into a parry if your opponent reads your move and you only lose some stamina instead of your health and initiative. Drags can be riskier if your opponent knows it’s coming; you’ll be aiming to hit at the end of release and hindering your own vision with the drag, so your attack can be ducked or strafed out of more easily. And although rare, fast onehanders can land something like a broadsword stab during your release and queue a combo parry before your slowed attack hits them.

    I think the reason any dragger would look down on a feinter despite both techniques accomplishing the same thing is that drags take more practice to use and defend against, whereas feints are… the more accessible tool. So one can perhaps presume that the guy you feinted would mock you because he thought higher of you.

    @Canadian:

    804 hrs played. Would be much larger I suppose if I left my comp logged in when I go to bed…… But I don’t…

    I wouldn’t have asked, but do you just leave Chivalry running with your computer then? If so your ingame rank might “matter” more.

    Ah Tor finally some debate and very much the same conversation I tried to have in chat in the round I mentioned. So… Dragging… ( turning your mouse ) requires more " Skill " then hitting a button? Anyway again I will state that there is no difference with regards to the intended out come of both moves but still find the hatered / Venom for feinting compared to dragging complexing.

    As to your question with regards to “time played” mine is exactly that … time played… And yes if you want to (pad) your hours simply leave your game running on the load screen and you to can boast 1600 hrs played… lol ahhhh… Kids now a days… ;o)

    T

    When I started to play Chilvalry back in October when it was released, I had so much fun with this game. I still do, but I have to admit after learning about feints and spending dozens of hours attempting to read them, it was simply impossible. Even after their nerf, little has changed besides more people doing flash feints. At least it takes a larger hit on stamina, but that’s far from balanced.

    To do a proper drag it takes much, much more skill. Even a flash feint is more effective than an above average drag. It takes nearly a perfect drag with a solid weapon meant for that (maul, messer, brandistock, vanguard sword stabs) for it to be even remotely close to the potency of a feint. If you think it’s easy, try it. I guarantee you’ll have far more successful attempts at tricking people with feints than you do drags.

    Also, I’m not sure about other players, but my 910 hours in this game is just that. In the game. There are many more who have even more genuine time too, clearly shown from their ranks. Ranking isn’t linear in case you did not know. Rank 48 is something like 45,000 kills. There are a few people above rank 50… so you can imagine the time it takes to amass that many kills. Especially if duels are your main source of play.



  • You can read feints, I don’t understand why some people say you can’t. But the best defense against a known feinter is to be aggressive, don’t sit back on yur ass and let them feint you. They wanna feint? Hit em’ in the head when they’re about to feint, it’s as frustrating to a feinter as feinting is to a non-feinter :P

    Edit: I really believe some weapons have super shitty animations that don’t allow you to read the feint as well as you should be able to. You know which ones I’m talkin about. Other than this, they can be read.



  • Come on stan… you’re not really going to sit there and say you can read feints. Predict them, yes yes. This has been cleared a million times. Show me a player who can directly defend against feints from someone who he hasn’t dueled for a million hours and I will change my mind.

    And, even if that happens, it doesn’t really alter the issue much. If one player out of tens or hundreds of thousands of players can defend against the easiest fakeout in the game… how does that make it balanced? It doesn’t.



  • @The:

    Come on stan… you’re not really going to sit there and say you can read feints. Predict them, yes yes. This has been cleared a million times. Show me a player who can directly defend against feints from someone who he hasn’t dueled for a million hours and I will change my mind.

    And, even if that happens, it doesn’t really alter the issue much. If one player out of tens or hundreds of thousands of players can defend against the easiest fakeout in the game… how does that make it balanced? It doesn’t.

    I agree and disagree. Feints can be read to a certain extent. Here’s the issue, to read feints I (im guessing other people also) wait until the last second in the opponent’s windup. Often I’ve literally sat there and had them feint me and I never parry. But if they’re doing a look down overhead with the great sword (or a number of other weapons), it’s nearly impossible to distinguish between the feint and the look down. If you try to distinguish a feint from a fast look down overhead, you WILL be hit. So in this sense you’re definitely right. That’s honestly why I just stick to the strat of spamming attacks at known feinters.



  • Under the right conditions, which are easy to force, any weapon can be impossible to read, through my experience. Some are certainly easier to use, vanguard swords for one thing. Especially that overhead. It’s so fast, assuming they’re in range there’s no way to wait. In fact it’s so fast, it’s quite hard to parry the accelerated overhead from a greatsword / claymore feints or not. With feints as a possibility, it’s… absurd. Even a flash feint is more than enough here.

    The differences between weapons merely change how long you need to hold the attack before you feint. The 200 ms cutoff isn’t enough to rectify this. Due to ping, you’d need about 175 ms reaction time to deal with a perfect feint (assuming 50 ping for both players). And that’s with all your focus on the weapon, which even in duels isn’t possible for the most part. There’s a lot to consider, his footwork, the range of the weapon, if he’s going for a drag instead, etc… it’s not like in a reaction time test where your entire brain is concentrating on solely one thing. This is massively compounded in team modes where even more of your attention is taken away to the field in general. Paying attention to only one player will get you killed fast, especially in a competitive scrim.

    Now, with the fastest of players in a LAN setting, maybe with an amazing amount of concentration you could directly defend against most proper feints. But as it stands now I can’t see it.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    That’s honestly why I just stick to the strat of spamming attacks at known feinters.

    That’s what I tend to do. You can predict feints and do something like attack immediately after getting parried, but if you wait until you see the windup animation cancel there’s just no way you’re going to react in time to interrupt the attack. The best you can do by reaction is parry the next attack instead which just sets you up for more potential feints.
    Gauging your opponent’s next move correctly and in turn feeding him false information is skillful and has some impact even outside of feints (I like to pretend not to notice flanking enemies), but in a game otherwise so focused on action and reaction it feels very dull to have a fight hinge entirely on mindgames and luck if one of the combatans chooses to use feints.

    Killing a feinter sometimes feels very rewarding to me because of some veiled resentment for the other player, but often it’s just a tasteless victory in which the odds weren’t really for or against me and my ability had little influence on the outcome. I’ll feint against feinters if I have to but I enjoy any fight without them much more.



  • I have seen both feinting and dragging cause a lot of waah ingame and on the forums. It seems that feinting is more frowned upon than dragging. “Draggers” speaking out against “feinters” seems hypocritical to me. Although these two techniques are different, their goal is the same - to trick your enemy to parry too early and punish them for it.

    I believe that both techniques are valid and valuable.



  • Ok guys I appreciate the participation but in all honestly lets break it down to the simplest terms.

    Map typeFFA I lied was TDM.
    I feinted once " knight - SoW - Stab / feint / stab. ( nerfed weapon )

    Opponent " knight - Messer - dirty filthy dragger…… LOL… ( and I think he ended up winning… Dirty dragging BASTARD… ) Ya ok ok ok. because I kept falling for it… ;o)

    Basically my observation is that I don’t see / understand the hate spewed against the feint ( other than he fell for it and got hit…) opposed to his continual use of dragging. They are a both a means to the same end, is all I"m saying. Mechanics to produce the same effect aside… The result is the same a missed block. And lets not over complicate the drag, the few times I’ve been on as of late everyone over the level of 20 seems to be doing it.



  • TNT and a thermonuclear warhead have the same purpose and effect, only in massively different degrees. To say they have the same purpose therefore they are balanced is… missing the details.

    Feints are irrefutably stronger than drags, in just about every way. You can defend against any drag that I’ve encountered so far. Proper feints on the other hand require predicting, not defending.



  • Radiant, my experience with feints has been entirely different to yours. There were lots of measures you could take before the patch to greatly increase your chances for a good read. In the current patch I’ve found that feints work much less in most circumstances. They still can be very reliable against most players, but it’s harder to create the situation where they are.



  • To drag an attack before you do anything you must:
    -decide what attack
    -decide whether it will be a slow attack or an accelerated attack
    -decide which direction to drag (sometimes no speed change is required but directional drags can be deceptive - especially to some high lvl players lols)
    -start executing the move.
    All of these things above have visual readable queues for your opponent to read and as such dragging requires skill and finesse.

    Feinting:
    -perform any standard attack (it doesn’t matter which one because your going to cancel the attack with one button)
    -perform some other attack.
    That is it.

    So essentially the difference between a drag and a feint is:
    -Dragging requires much more forethought and finesse. It is harder to execute a drag or multiple drags because your camera is often not facing your opponent. Your target has lots of visual clues to what is happening including direction, speed, and which attack is being used.
    -A feint does NOT require forethought and your camera will be facing forwards the whole time if you so choose (feint to stab). There are no visual clues for what is happening, animations are quite frankly fucked up depending on which attack follows on from the first one.

    IMHO, given the above, feint should be removed



  • @Torrenz:

    @parkrangerstan:

    That’s honestly why I just stick to the strat of spamming attacks at known feinters.

    That’s what I tend to do.

    Only time it doesn’t work is against spear feinters as they have range as well. I was playing against a team that had two Brandistock feint spammers the other day and there was no way that being aggressive would work as by the time you’ve closed in they usually just hit you with an LMB swipe or have backed up and hit with a thrust.

    In that case I pulled out a shield which is a great counter to feints.

    As to the OP, I agree that the division between: feints = bad, drags = good, is quite silly. However there’s still more skill to dragging than feinting.

    I sometimes feel like dragging is more likely to go through a parry though as well. I think the act of severely manipulating the tracers can sometimes make them hard to block even if you time them right. Anyone else noticed this?



  • @giantyak:

    So essentially the difference between a drag and a feint is:
    -Dragging requires much more forethought and finesse. It is harder to execute a drag or multiple drags because your camera is often not facing your opponent. Your target has lots of visual clues to what is happening including direction, speed, and which attack is being used.
    -A feint does NOT require forethought and your camera will be facing forwards the whole time if you so choose (feint to stab). There are no visual clues for what is happening, animations are quite frankly fucked up depending on which attack follows on from the first one.

    IMHO, given the above, feint should be removed

    By your logic, shields should be removed because it is easier to block than parry. No thank you!

    @Dr:

    As to the OP, I agree that the division between: feints = bad, drags = good, is quite silly. However there’s still more skill to dragging than feinting.

    Sure. But just because feinting is easier to perform than dragging, I don’t think it automatically makes feinting imbalanced (and I’m not suggesting that is your argument, but it seems to be the direction this thread is taking).

    If 1000 feinters duel 1000 draggers where both feints and drags are initianted at the same time, I suspect more draggers will come out on top.

    At the end of the day, both feinting and dragging can be punished the same way: be aggressive, forget parrying and deliver the first blow yourself.



  • Exactly. To win vs a feinter you do not know, go wild and berserk. That’s your best chance.

    That is dumb.

    If you know the player, to win you have to predict him well.

    That isn’t fun.

    Chivalry is mostly a back and forth of reflexes, timing, knowledge of footwork, but everything is precise enough that with proper attention you can be a mountain, you can defend against just about anything that comes your way. I love this. No game does this, or very few do. Feints ruin that entirely.

    And as I said, it’s not just that feints are easier to execute, but they are also far more powerful than drags. The only disadvantage, sometimes, is the stamina cost. Dragging often incurs this too because you will miss a few of them. That doesn’t seem remotely balanced to me.


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