Feinting vs dragging… Really? There's a diffence??



  • @The:

    Come on stan… you’re not really going to sit there and say you can read feints. Predict them, yes yes. This has been cleared a million times. Show me a player who can directly defend against feints from someone who he hasn’t dueled for a million hours and I will change my mind.

    And, even if that happens, it doesn’t really alter the issue much. If one player out of tens or hundreds of thousands of players can defend against the easiest fakeout in the game… how does that make it balanced? It doesn’t.

    I agree and disagree. Feints can be read to a certain extent. Here’s the issue, to read feints I (im guessing other people also) wait until the last second in the opponent’s windup. Often I’ve literally sat there and had them feint me and I never parry. But if they’re doing a look down overhead with the great sword (or a number of other weapons), it’s nearly impossible to distinguish between the feint and the look down. If you try to distinguish a feint from a fast look down overhead, you WILL be hit. So in this sense you’re definitely right. That’s honestly why I just stick to the strat of spamming attacks at known feinters.



  • Under the right conditions, which are easy to force, any weapon can be impossible to read, through my experience. Some are certainly easier to use, vanguard swords for one thing. Especially that overhead. It’s so fast, assuming they’re in range there’s no way to wait. In fact it’s so fast, it’s quite hard to parry the accelerated overhead from a greatsword / claymore feints or not. With feints as a possibility, it’s… absurd. Even a flash feint is more than enough here.

    The differences between weapons merely change how long you need to hold the attack before you feint. The 200 ms cutoff isn’t enough to rectify this. Due to ping, you’d need about 175 ms reaction time to deal with a perfect feint (assuming 50 ping for both players). And that’s with all your focus on the weapon, which even in duels isn’t possible for the most part. There’s a lot to consider, his footwork, the range of the weapon, if he’s going for a drag instead, etc… it’s not like in a reaction time test where your entire brain is concentrating on solely one thing. This is massively compounded in team modes where even more of your attention is taken away to the field in general. Paying attention to only one player will get you killed fast, especially in a competitive scrim.

    Now, with the fastest of players in a LAN setting, maybe with an amazing amount of concentration you could directly defend against most proper feints. But as it stands now I can’t see it.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    That’s honestly why I just stick to the strat of spamming attacks at known feinters.

    That’s what I tend to do. You can predict feints and do something like attack immediately after getting parried, but if you wait until you see the windup animation cancel there’s just no way you’re going to react in time to interrupt the attack. The best you can do by reaction is parry the next attack instead which just sets you up for more potential feints.
    Gauging your opponent’s next move correctly and in turn feeding him false information is skillful and has some impact even outside of feints (I like to pretend not to notice flanking enemies), but in a game otherwise so focused on action and reaction it feels very dull to have a fight hinge entirely on mindgames and luck if one of the combatans chooses to use feints.

    Killing a feinter sometimes feels very rewarding to me because of some veiled resentment for the other player, but often it’s just a tasteless victory in which the odds weren’t really for or against me and my ability had little influence on the outcome. I’ll feint against feinters if I have to but I enjoy any fight without them much more.



  • I have seen both feinting and dragging cause a lot of waah ingame and on the forums. It seems that feinting is more frowned upon than dragging. “Draggers” speaking out against “feinters” seems hypocritical to me. Although these two techniques are different, their goal is the same - to trick your enemy to parry too early and punish them for it.

    I believe that both techniques are valid and valuable.



  • Ok guys I appreciate the participation but in all honestly lets break it down to the simplest terms.

    Map typeFFA I lied was TDM.
    I feinted once " knight - SoW - Stab / feint / stab. ( nerfed weapon )

    Opponent " knight - Messer - dirty filthy dragger…… LOL… ( and I think he ended up winning… Dirty dragging BASTARD… ) Ya ok ok ok. because I kept falling for it… ;o)

    Basically my observation is that I don’t see / understand the hate spewed against the feint ( other than he fell for it and got hit…) opposed to his continual use of dragging. They are a both a means to the same end, is all I"m saying. Mechanics to produce the same effect aside… The result is the same a missed block. And lets not over complicate the drag, the few times I’ve been on as of late everyone over the level of 20 seems to be doing it.



  • TNT and a thermonuclear warhead have the same purpose and effect, only in massively different degrees. To say they have the same purpose therefore they are balanced is… missing the details.

    Feints are irrefutably stronger than drags, in just about every way. You can defend against any drag that I’ve encountered so far. Proper feints on the other hand require predicting, not defending.



  • Radiant, my experience with feints has been entirely different to yours. There were lots of measures you could take before the patch to greatly increase your chances for a good read. In the current patch I’ve found that feints work much less in most circumstances. They still can be very reliable against most players, but it’s harder to create the situation where they are.



  • To drag an attack before you do anything you must:
    -decide what attack
    -decide whether it will be a slow attack or an accelerated attack
    -decide which direction to drag (sometimes no speed change is required but directional drags can be deceptive - especially to some high lvl players lols)
    -start executing the move.
    All of these things above have visual readable queues for your opponent to read and as such dragging requires skill and finesse.

    Feinting:
    -perform any standard attack (it doesn’t matter which one because your going to cancel the attack with one button)
    -perform some other attack.
    That is it.

    So essentially the difference between a drag and a feint is:
    -Dragging requires much more forethought and finesse. It is harder to execute a drag or multiple drags because your camera is often not facing your opponent. Your target has lots of visual clues to what is happening including direction, speed, and which attack is being used.
    -A feint does NOT require forethought and your camera will be facing forwards the whole time if you so choose (feint to stab). There are no visual clues for what is happening, animations are quite frankly fucked up depending on which attack follows on from the first one.

    IMHO, given the above, feint should be removed



  • @Torrenz:

    @parkrangerstan:

    That’s honestly why I just stick to the strat of spamming attacks at known feinters.

    That’s what I tend to do.

    Only time it doesn’t work is against spear feinters as they have range as well. I was playing against a team that had two Brandistock feint spammers the other day and there was no way that being aggressive would work as by the time you’ve closed in they usually just hit you with an LMB swipe or have backed up and hit with a thrust.

    In that case I pulled out a shield which is a great counter to feints.

    As to the OP, I agree that the division between: feints = bad, drags = good, is quite silly. However there’s still more skill to dragging than feinting.

    I sometimes feel like dragging is more likely to go through a parry though as well. I think the act of severely manipulating the tracers can sometimes make them hard to block even if you time them right. Anyone else noticed this?



  • @giantyak:

    So essentially the difference between a drag and a feint is:
    -Dragging requires much more forethought and finesse. It is harder to execute a drag or multiple drags because your camera is often not facing your opponent. Your target has lots of visual clues to what is happening including direction, speed, and which attack is being used.
    -A feint does NOT require forethought and your camera will be facing forwards the whole time if you so choose (feint to stab). There are no visual clues for what is happening, animations are quite frankly fucked up depending on which attack follows on from the first one.

    IMHO, given the above, feint should be removed

    By your logic, shields should be removed because it is easier to block than parry. No thank you!

    @Dr:

    As to the OP, I agree that the division between: feints = bad, drags = good, is quite silly. However there’s still more skill to dragging than feinting.

    Sure. But just because feinting is easier to perform than dragging, I don’t think it automatically makes feinting imbalanced (and I’m not suggesting that is your argument, but it seems to be the direction this thread is taking).

    If 1000 feinters duel 1000 draggers where both feints and drags are initianted at the same time, I suspect more draggers will come out on top.

    At the end of the day, both feinting and dragging can be punished the same way: be aggressive, forget parrying and deliver the first blow yourself.



  • Exactly. To win vs a feinter you do not know, go wild and berserk. That’s your best chance.

    That is dumb.

    If you know the player, to win you have to predict him well.

    That isn’t fun.

    Chivalry is mostly a back and forth of reflexes, timing, knowledge of footwork, but everything is precise enough that with proper attention you can be a mountain, you can defend against just about anything that comes your way. I love this. No game does this, or very few do. Feints ruin that entirely.

    And as I said, it’s not just that feints are easier to execute, but they are also far more powerful than drags. The only disadvantage, sometimes, is the stamina cost. Dragging often incurs this too because you will miss a few of them. That doesn’t seem remotely balanced to me.



  • @Sir:


    By your logic, shields should be removed because it is easier to block than parry. No thank you!

    Oh dear :? ,
    Another one that can’t operate above this logic:
    If some apples are green and some oranges are orange does this mean that all apples are green?

    @The:


    And as I said, it’s not just that feints are easier to execute, but they are also far more powerful than drags. The only disadvantage, sometimes, is the stamina cost. Dragging often incurs this too because you will miss a few of them. That doesn’t seem remotely balanced to me.

    Not only this but as it is easier to read drags your more likely to be riposte



  • @The:

    TNT and a thermonuclear warhead have the same purpose and effect, only in massively different degrees. To say they have the same purpose therefore they are balanced is… missing the details.

    Feints are irrefutably stronger than drags, in just about every way. You can defend against any drag that I’ve encountered so far. Proper feints on the other hand require predicting, not defending.

    The truth.



  • Anyway, starting to head down the path of " we’ve been here before " so fair enough we’ll leave it at that and call the thread topic dead… ( I.E. who really gives a shit…. And who’s really in the mood to WoW theory craft… ) … ;o)

    Just watched the new Star Trek that wasn’t too bad.

    Have a good night all.



  • @Canadian:

    Ok guys I appreciate the participation but in all honestly lets break it down to the simplest terms.

    Map typeFFA I lied was TDM.
    I feinted once " knight - SoW - Stab / feint / stab. ( nerfed weapon )

    Opponent " knight - Messer - dirty filthy dragger…… LOL… ( and I think he ended up winning… Dirty dragging BASTARD… ) Ya ok ok ok. because I kept falling for it… ;o)

    Basically my observation is that I don’t see / understand the hate spewed against the feint ( other than he fell for it and got hit…) opposed to his continual use of dragging. They are a both a means to the same end, is all I"m saying. Mechanics to produce the same effect aside… The result is the same a missed block. And lets not over complicate the drag, the few times I’ve been on as of late everyone over the level of 20 seems to be doing it.

    I’m not really sure what your point is anymore.

    Are you surprised that people make distinctions between different ways to kill someone in an online multiplayer game? There’s nothing else to do but kill people in TF2, Counter Strike, CoD, Chivalry etc., of course the killing method is going to have some significance. Is there a difference between dragging and feinting someone from behind while doing a jumping 360 lookdown alt overhead? Yes, there is, because someone getting killed is the only possible outcome in this game, so if there’s anything to argue about it’s the different things to kill with.

    I think we’ve established how feints are mechanically different and it’s obvious that some people don’t like them, so it shouldn’t be surprising that you’d run into a passionate player who gives you shit for feinting when he’s employing more subtle game mechanics himself.



  • @The:

    Show me a player who can directly defend against feints from someone who he hasn’t dueled for a million hours and I will change my mind.

    It takes practice to read feints… A LOT
    The only players (or past players) I know who can reliably read feints are KyWild, Dubjay, Crushed, Sophax, and a few others…
    Reading feints takes skill and time in the game. Also feinting leaves you open, so anyone can attack you during that feint time. Also you can hardly feint faster weapon such as the norse sword or the hatchet because the feint window for those weapons are so small.



  • so if there’s anything to argue about it’s the different things you get killed by.

    Ah see Torr, there is nothing to argue about, it was just a question.

    And again really “who gives a shit” question asked " opinions " expressed. Done….

    Have a great night.



  • I find reading feints in a 1v1 duel to not be all that difficult( I have 1600+ hrs in the game, most of it dueling…so maybe I’m used to it; not bragging(playing time isn’t exactly something to brag about anyway lol :D ), just a matter of fact). This being said, anyone and everyone will fall for feints at some point, even in a 1v1. However in a TO type game mode, where there’s so much going on and multiple opponents, it can be difficult to determine feints. The reason is obvious, the player must concentrate on many other factors and many more opponents.

    The good news is, you don’t HAVE to read feints. Just be very aggressive, this works just as well. And again, I do believe the animations are too discreet on a couple weapons, as far as feints go(And actually some of the attack animations themselves for that matter) Yes, time wise they are accurate to the stats, but they are special because they have a very disguised animation, which I think is wrong.



  • @Meow:

    Also feinting leaves you open, so anyone can attack you during that feint time.

    What about feint to parry? If you’re fast enough to read feints even half-reliably it should be absolutely no problem to feint to parry consistently. Even if your opponent saw right through you he’s going to get little sway on the fight for it unless he’s going to feint too, or he outplays/outguesses you so hard that you can’t get a single hit in before blowing all your stamina.

    Feints aren’t impossible to punish, but I feel like they are safer than miss+combo or drags. Stamina isn’t a problem short-term, getting hit is.

    @Meow:

    Also you can hardly feint faster weapon such as the norse sword or the hatchet because the feint window for those weapons are so small.

    I don’t understand that. Isn’t the feint lockout period very similiar on all weapons, or even relatively short on the fast ones? I certainly don’t feel inclined to parry a 0.3 windup attack late rather than early, especially when I’m looking out for ripostes.

    @Canadian:

    And again really “who gives a shit” question asked " opinions " expressed. Done….

    Have a great night.

    Alrighty, same to you. I hope you don’t mind if we keep at it here, the Balance & Game Mechanics forum seems to have disappeared and I need to get my arguing fix.



  • @Torrenz:

    What about feint to parry? If you’re fast enough to read feints even half-reliably it should be absolutely no problem to feint to parry consistently. Even if your opponent saw right through you he’s going to get little sway on the fight for it unless he’s going to feint too, or he outplays/outguesses you so hard that you can’t get a single hit in before blowing all your stamina.

    Feints aren’t impossible to punish, but I feel like they are safer than miss+combo or drags. Stamina isn’t a problem short-term, getting hit is.

    Idk why, but feint to parry seems much slower (maybe it’s cause the combat was slowed down). But yes, feint to parry is an option (thank you for reminding me) but it’s still not the most reliable option. Feint to parry takes a decent amount of stamina.

    @Torrenz:

    I don’t understand that. Isn’t the feint lockout period very similiar on all weapons, or even relatively short on the fast ones? I certainly don’t feel inclined to parry a 0.3 windup attack late rather than early, especially when I’m looking out for ripostes.

    I was talking to Vengeful Viking a few weeks ago about this. He personally found it insanely difficult to pull off a feint with the Norse sword and it was frustrating to him because it ruined his style of play vs MaA. The feint window of a weapon is dependent on the windup (unless something has been changed that I wasn’t aware about). So weapons like the Zwei and the Maul have large feint windows and weapons such as the Norse sword and daggers have short feint windows.


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