Stage 1 of darkforest is too hard



  • Darkforest is the only TO map where i see the attackers fail the first stage often. Considering what you need to do, and the ammount of time you have to do it, it is as difficult as battlegrounds stage 2. This is because of the Y-shaped configuration of the battle. You have defenders coming down from either side toward the middle creating a V-shape. Thenyou have attackers coming up in a straight line into the point of the V. This creates a Y shaped battle that is in favor of the defenders. In stage 2 there is a walled-in section at the end like battelegrounds. This appears to be in place to stop the Y-shape from forming. The defender have to come out from either side then turn around, creating a W-shaped defence that is much easier to deal with.

    Darkforest is my favourite map and i’m disapointed that it rarely goes past stage 1, it’s like citidel before it was patched. Obviously making a walled-in section would completly change the dynamics of the map so please make the wagon faster or give the attackers more time. Thank you.



  • In my experience Agatha gets shut down during stage 1 of Hillside more often than Masons during stage 1 of Darkforest.



  • @Sir:

    In my experience Agatha gets shut down during stage 1 of Hillside more often than Masons during stage 1 of Darkforest.

    On hillside the defenders often make the same error they make on stonehill- trying to spawn camp and having a group of attackers sneak around them and do the objective behind their backs. The corridor-design of darkforest stage 1 doesn’t allow for this.



  • I’d have to say I can’t remember the last time it didn’t get past stage one on my servers (and we play it a lot, since only 4 or 5 TO maps on rotation). Although admittedly it might be down to player numbers making it easier for the attackers.

    What sort of size servers are you playing on?



  • @MonkeyFiend:

    I’d have to say I can’t remember the last time it didn’t get past stage one on my servers (and we play it a lot, since only 4 or 5 TO maps on rotation). Although admittedly it might be down to player numbers making it easier for the attackers.

    What sort of size servers are you playing on?

    24 or 32 man servers, usually full or close to full



  • I can’t agree with this, I don’t think I could handle another poor TO map being nerfed to hell (R.I.P. Old treb 3).

    It is difficult if you are very disorganized, planning a strategy through the chat can do wonders even on a pub server where only a few people may listen.
    Also, sneaking up the left hand side, (killing that persistent archer on the cliff and jumping down to the cart) is very good when the enemy is more occupied with kills then the cart…



  • Darkforest is like most balanced map in this game.



  • In my experience (on the official servers) Mason makes it through stage 1 more often than not. I think it’s reasonably fair. It would be dumb if they just breezed past every time, so a stalwart defense should have a good chance to win at that stage.

    edit: whoops meant mason not aggy



  • In my experience the masons almost never fail at Stage 1 of dark forest. Most of the time the cart never stands still for more than 1 min.

    It depends on the players. We had a match when the masons didnt get through stage 1.
    That was because most of us agathians were steamfriends and worked together closely. We did a great shieldwall with towershields and vanguards with spears behind it and some archers. The masons didn’t seem to work together very well. They failed painfully.

    But usually the masons get through stage 1 easily. When they fail, it’s usually stage 2 or 3. And if they get through stage 3, they will most likely win. Stage 4 is hard for the agathians, if they don’t work together really closely.

    And I agree that hillside is hard for agatha. But that’s because the great issue of people just not working together. If it’s just TWO DAMN People in agatha that work together, the beacon will be alight in no time! You just need 2 or 3 people that stick together and cover each other. Then you win it easily.

    I think it’s quite balanced.



  • @Ready:

    Darkforest is my favourite map and i’m disapointed that it rarely goes past stage 1, it’s like citidel before it was patched.

    funniest most inaccurate post ever. you need to play it more often, I rarely see people get stopped at stage 1 unless the teams are heavily unbalanced.



  • Part 2 is the hardest part on dark forest, as mason that is.



  • Depends on the teams. I actually think that the first two objectives are equally hard. For competitive play the objectives are fine though.



  • @Xylvion:

    Part 2 is the hardest part on dark forest, as mason that is.

    I think I can agree with that, even though I don’t play mason as long as I don’t unbalance the teams by joining Agatha.
    The masons usually win the map, but when they lose it’s usually on Stage 2. But then again, if they get through stage 2, Agatha is most likely about to lose their royals within minutes.



  • I think any map that has a strong defence aspect and a couple of bottlenecks has potential to be unbalanced, but it’s not the map itself, it’s the mix of players you get, which for the most part is pretty random



  • @Peter:

    @Xylvion:

    Part 2 is the hardest part on dark forest, as mason that is.

    I think I can agree with that, even though I don’t play mason as long as I don’t unbalance the teams by joining Agatha.
    The masons usually win the map, but when they lose it’s usually on Stage 2. But then again, if they get through stage 2, Agatha is most likely about to lose their royals within minutes.

    That is my experience as well, though technically it is a bit strange, since both the Sluice Gates and the Royal Family part is actually very easy to defend with just a tiny bit of coordination.

    Problem is of course that coordination almost never happens on pubs (in all modesty I have coordinated a few memorable objective C defences which took a losing Agatha team to victory after 15 mins of holding last objective, but those are extremely rare exceptions).

    It is as strange as that first objective on Hillside. If the masons actually defended objective Agatha does not have a chance no matter how organised they are, simply because masons spawn closer. But fortunately for agatha masons almost never defend the actual objective on that stage and thus surprisingly often manage to light the fire by sneaking in.



  • Recently I’ve found that the competitive community thinks that Dark Forest and Stoneshill are the best balanced maps in the game. Every TO scrimmage you have those two options basically.

    I’ve seen all 4 objectives held well, and I’ve seen all 4 objectives blown through. It’s really all about fighting at that cart when it’s rushed and pushing forwards from the cart when it’s clear, as far as I can tell. I think all around it’s a well balanced map.

    They laugh when I say we should do Citadel :).



  • Did someone just say…

    @quigleyer:

    Citadel :).

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Seriously though, on Dark Forest I’ve see everything (at least in scrims). The first objective might be a bit harder than the rest but overall it’s possible to stop the attackers on each of the objectives.



  • Dark forest is one of the more balanced maps. You can be stopped on each stage and you progress through each stage depending on teams. The first onjective can be hard when they have plenty of accurate archers who can handle themselves in melee. If they hae too many archers they will lose it.



  • dark forest is one of the most balanced maps in the game in it’s entirety. Every objective in it can be both attacked and defended well, if the team doesn’t get past one, well that’s tragic but it happens occasionally in pubs.

    Stoneshill is another PRETTY balanced map, the king part kind of depends but still pretty balanced.

    Citadel on the other hand, once you get past the 1st objective… it’s like steamroll agatha.

    Same with hillside, once the 1st objective is completed it’s like steamroll agatha.

    If anything maybe complain about those 2 maps because seriously imbalanced toward attackers. It used to be hard to do the first objective and it can still be challenging with a good defensive strategy… but if you do get past the first objective… the you’re most likely going to win. On citadel the 2nd objective is another possible holding point but not likely since there’s so much to defend that it’s easy to sneak around. Same thing with hillside, with the 3 trebs only, no one ever defends 3… 1 is easily taken if you get one good push, and then 2 is saved for last to get the whole team involved and only requires 1 good push. The ballistas at that point you have so much time it’s almost impossible to fail with 3 ballistas to attack.

    On the contrary to that, it’s very easy to defend in 32 man servers because it’s a clusterfuck most of the time. There’s always reinforcements spawning and a ton of people around you constantly, i don’t think maps are balanced with that many ppl. I only enjoy playing TO with 24 players max, the maps really get less and less balanced the more people.

    For instance dark forest… on 32 man you’ll have about 8-10 archers on defending team, whatever they don’t sweep up on the way, the melee can easily take out, or whatever the melee doesn’t handle that crossbow or archer in the back will certainly shoot you or stab you once you get close enough.

    It kind of depends how many players and how stacked the teams are… always been this way… but darkforest and stoneshill are probably the best balanced TO maps currently.



  • I’d agree with most of that assessment Clayton.

    The funny thing about Citadel is that stage 4 with the doors is actually the easiest to defend IMO. If enough people stay near the doors and communicate with the team when there is a big push it’s not that hard. However that really depends on how much time there is on the stage. If the defenders have done well on the previous stages then they should have to only defend the doors for less than 10 mins. If they haven’t done well then they will have to defend for well over 10 mins and that becomes difficult.

    With Hillside, you can defend treb 1 properly for the win. If everyone defended treb 1 like they used to defend the old treb 3 it would be very challenging. On most pubs it’s fairly easy to take 1 and 3 early and then focus on 2.


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