A word about RESPECT: Put yourself in a dev's shoes.



  • I see a lot of people complaining that Chivalry mechanics are noobed out; that avid players will abandon it and servers will one day be empty from gameplay decline. Similarly, I’ve seen folks rage that customization exists at all; that patches should be 100% about balance tweaks instead of cosmetic features. Such people claim that Torn Banner has no sense of priority, and that the developers are also wasting time with Deadliest Warrior. Some claim the devs lack intelligence, insight, integrity, or otherwise. I have words for you.

    I am a game developer. I do both programming and graphics. I’ve worked under studios and also independently. I’ve been to large conventions and small local meetups. Most of you likely haven’t a clue what it’s like to be a member of the industry. Many perhaps assume that because video games are able to reach gross profits summing millions of dollars, the creators end up rolling in piles of cash. Many perhaps assume that TBS is also filthy rich after selling 1.2M copies. IT IS NOT SO. If you would count the expenses against the sales, you would see that actual net profit for most games is not incredible. Only the folks at the very top of the world’s biggest game companies can afford an extravagant lifestyle. For the vast majority of developers, making games is not a very profitable business, but only a labor of love. And the profits are not to be used for partying, but instead for working even harder on making another game.

    For everyone out there with bad attitudes: You paid for Chivalry ONCE. Assuming you paid full price (you probably didn’t considering how often it goes on sale), and I’m not sure how much Valve keeps from Steam sales but let’s assume 30%, that leaves $17.50 USD for Torn Banner’s pockets. That’s only enough to buy lunch for two of their team members. Or if you kept the money, perhaps you could buy yourself a couple of lunches. Oh, don’t forget income tax, so maybe one lunch. Are you all getting some perspective now? They worked their asses off to provide you hours upon hours of entertainment, and all you did was sacrifice a lunch. Yet you feel entitled to enjoy the benefits of free patch updates forever, and to have all your requests and complaints catered to as “the almighty customer”?

    TBS is a small group of talented, passionate people who came together and created something. They are not superhuman; they are people with bills to pay, lives to live, and possibly families to support. Without their sacrifices, there would be no game to bitch about. It is a privilege to receive updates (i.e. the results of someone else’s hard labor) free of charge, for a one-time purchase that was already inexpensive to begin with. All those tweaks you players demand (that is, if you demand rather than request)? They improve your experience but don’t bring new customers. Don’t misunderstand; even I as a semi-hardcore player feel entitled to some patches here and there, but I don’t expect a ton of changes every time. Sometimes changes make it easier for noobs to score kills. Oh well! It’s important for new players to experience some victory; don’t be so selfish. If you’re truly hardcore, you should only care about fighting other veterans anyway because owning noobs all day is not impressive. Soon enough you’ll adapt, and besides one day mods will be more accessible. Be patient for that pro atmosphere you crave. The game is still less than a year old.

    Some people say that TBS is after “fast cash” with the DW expansion. More like SOME cash instead of NO cash. How do you expect these people to pay their bills if they invest all of their working hours into a product already sold? New products are necessary because old products sell less frequently over time, and there’s only one sale per player. For those who scoff at customization features: Did you expect the studio to fire their character artists and focus solely on tweaking numbers? I do believe gameplay mechanics are paramount to all other aspects, but visuals should not be ignored and artists need to stay busy. Besides, there is in fact a gameplay element involved: now we can recognize our favorite players and that’s pretty cool. I will remember the guy with the pink llama tabard is likely to smash my face again if I’m not careful.

    That all said, this game is not without its bugs, and there are times I think “It works like that? Aw, that’s dumb I would have designed it differently.” But maybe it isn’t the way it was designed because there hasn’t been time or resources to fulfill the true vision. I imagine having to be the person who must take the responsibility of fixing it, and I know it’s not easy. And I wouldn’t feel appreciated if my players said “Finally it took you long enough, now hurry up and fix the other thing now you lazy fool!” And knowing that it doesn’t put more food on my table, but only costs more of my labor for the same lunch. The only thing left is feeling accomplished that I made the game I wanted to make, and that at least some people out there are having fun. And if the new players are having fun, it will end up better for everyone eventually.

    Chivalry is currently my favorite game and I respect Torn Banner greatly for putting it together. I’m certain the mature players of its community do as well. For the frustrated, yes you may complain about whatever’s broken, but no you may not insult the people working on it. Show some respect.



  • Yeah, but one time I blocked too early and died, and it was Torn Banner’s fault.



  • most people still love to play the game, and it’s not so much the changes made… i think we’ve all totally adapted to the new changes and don’t have a problem with how they SHOULD work, however they don’t work as intended. There are bugs, but then there are some serious mechanic flaws that affect the game. It’s like in street fighter if you expect if both players are ryu or ryu vs ken and you both hadouken at the same time, it would be like if one hadouken went through the other hadouken and continued to go into the other character instead of cancelling each other out. It’s shit like that in chivalry that are broken mechanics, and not intended changes.

    A lot of people still have faith in them, but at least we could get an update, over the last 3 weeks or maybe more, we’ve been told that chivalry would be fixed, but have recieved no updates on it. Most people think they’ve given up on chivalry which i don’t believe that to be true, but i’d certainly like a little more communication. We got a lot of communication for a while there, but now it’s back to the point after that first patch that broke everything where they’ve kind of completely gone silent, other than deadliest warrior updates.

    I’m excited for the new title, but we’re still ACTUALLY PLAYING chivalry the game, not deadliest warrior, i think most people want a game that we’re actually playing currently to get fixed, rather than hearing about updates to a game we’re not playing yet.



  • I don’t think many people are disrespectful, most that are have left.

    But there are only 1,299 people playing on a Friday night and that is very low. With DW coming out half of them will switch to it and that will not be good.

    TBS has had a lot of feedback, but in general they have grown stubborn and no longer response to community feedback so unless something changes the writing is on the wall.



  • @gregcau:

    I don’t think many people are disrespectful, most that are have left.

    But there are only 1,299 people playing on a Friday night and that is very low. With DW coming out half of them will switch to it and that will not be good.

    TBS has had a lot of feedback, but in general they have grown stubborn and no longer response to community feedback so unless something changes the writing is on the wall.

    Couldn’t agree more.



  • The point the OP is trying to make is that it’s not like TB can just magically wave a wand and fix these problems.

    That’s what you don’t get. If they could fix these issues they would.

    The problem is that it’s difficult to rewrite the code to fix the problems without introducing new ones and a lot of these problems are inherent to UDK because of lack of internet optimisation.

    TBS spent a lot of time optimising code before the release of CMW to get the game to be playable but they will never be free of lag related issues.



  • @Dr:

    The point the OP is trying to make is that it’s not like TB can just magically wave a wand and fix these problems.

    That’s what you don’t get. If they could fix these issues they would.

    The problem is that it’s difficult to rewrite the code to fix the problems without introducing new ones and a lot of these problems are inherent to UDK because of lack of internet optimisation.

    TBS spent a lot of time optimising code before the release of CMW to get the game to be playable but they will never be free of lag related issues.

    They introduced a lot of bugs that used to be fixed. They introduced no maps (oh but they have maps in the back burner), they promised the SDK but they switched to the lure of DW.

    Its their choice of course.



  • @gregcau:

    @Dr:

    The point the OP is trying to make is that it’s not like TB can just magically wave a wand and fix these problems.

    That’s what you don’t get. If they could fix these issues they would.

    The problem is that it’s difficult to rewrite the code to fix the problems without introducing new ones and a lot of these problems are inherent to UDK because of lack of internet optimisation.

    TBS spent a lot of time optimising code before the release of CMW to get the game to be playable but they will never be free of lag related issues.

    They introduced a lot of bugs that used to be fixed.

    That’s my point, trying to fix bugs causes other bugs. It’s not as easy to fix as you seem to think it is.

    @gregcau:

    They introduced no maps (oh but they have maps in the back burner),

    They did introduce new maps in one patch, I would prefer more as well but I’m realistic about what they can and can’t achieve.
    @gregcau:

    they promised the SDK but they switched to the lure of DW.

    That’s complete supposition and in fact false. I know because I actually use the SDK and have seen improvements in each patch. The devs (particularly Andrew and CrustaceanSoup) have personally helped me build my map not just by giving advice but providing sections of code for things I wanted to do but didn’t know how.

    Hardly seems like they “switched” to DW does it?



  • @Dr:

    @gregcau:

    They introduced a lot of bugs that used to be fixed.

    That’s my point, trying to fix bugs causes other bugs. It’s not as easy to fix as you seem to think it is.

    I am an enterprise software developer too, it is sloppy work indicative of a lack of a change control system, unit testing, validation scripts. But thats kids these days, little experience or pride in their work.
    @Dr:

    @gregcau:

    they promised the SDK but they switched to the lure of DW.

    That’s complete supposition and in fact false. I know because I actually use the SDK and have seen improvements in each patch. The devs (particularly Andrew and CrustaceanSoup) have personally helped me build my map not just by giving advice but providing sections of code for things I wanted to do but didn’t know how.

    Hardly seems like they “switched” to DW does it?

    Is the SDK live? Is it production ready? Are there any timelines provided as to when that will happen? Or are the resources focussed on a TV show. I suspect the latter.



  • @SirSmoke:

    Many perhaps assume that because video games are able to reach gross profits summing millions of dollars, the creators end up rolling in piles of cash.

    Clearly, you haven’t seen Steve sitting high upon his mighty throne made of gold looking over the team members making sure that they are working while fangirls feed him grapes. :D

    As for everything else you’ve said, game development is a lot of work. Chivalry is definitely a game made out of love.

    I know that some people don’t necessarily agree with their decision about DW, but at the end of the day, if they even want to continue to improve Chivalry, they need to keep the income flowing which is what DW is, plus who wouldn’t love to play DW. :D

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P, who have come together from all over the world to give us the game that we all enjoying playing. From that, they gathered together in one location to continue to push the efforts of making this game better and better. They’ve done a wonderful job so far and considering it’s their first title, there is obviously going to be some choices that players may not agree with.

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention. However, they also have to do things that will allow them to keep going, so even though there may be a few bugs here or there which seems like they aren’t getting dealt with (which is not the case), they’re just simply doing things in order as they see fit.

    Given the size of the team and what they have done, the amount of patches and content update is impressive, especially if you compare it to big companies that easily have teams 20 times the size of TB. There’s only so many bodies which can only do so many things so as they continue to do things which keeps them afloat, they will eventually be able to have the team grow.

    Chivalry is as much of a learning process for them as it is for us. The game hasn’t been out for a year but there’s been so much done for it. I think we should all just give it time and watch as they continue to deliver content. I have no idea what their game plan is, but I assume that once DW is out, that will allow up more time and resources to go back to Chivalry to fix the little things that need fixing.

    Considering that some studios mostly release the same game year after year with essentially the same problems, I think Torn Banner is definitely more than allowed to take as much time as needed, but then again it’s really not up to us to tell them what to do or when to do it.



  • @Keith:

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P

    Obviously sexist with only 12% of their workforce female.

    @Keith:

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention.

    Then why do Ask TBS posts take 2 months before they respond? Why was the balance council disbanded? Why did they say they would fix the hideous duel user interface and never do so?

    I could go on and on.



  • It is what it is, I’ve supported TBS for the last year but I can tell things are going to get ugly, purely due to poor business decisions, not because of greed or anything else. They just don’t understand their community and slapped each other on the back with a pure orange forum which has now dropped 80% of the user activity. Drink the coolaid and fail to see its not about me and my preferences but games are about building a community. A community can be appeased easily with some attention but when you ignore it and assume 1.2 million sales = do some other project and ignore CMW you have lost your user base.



  • SirSmoke, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I couldn’t agree more.



  • @gregcau:

    @Keith:

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P

    Obviously sexist with only 12% of their workforce female.

    @Keith:

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention.

    Then why do Ask TBS posts take 2 months before they respond? Why was the balance council disbanded? Why did they say they would fix the hideous duel user interface and never do so?

    I could go on and on.

    Because if they constantly answered questions, nothing would ever get done. As for the balance council, my guess is as good as any but I figured it’s because there’s no point having a small few voices when the community is making their voices heard in the forums so it’d make sense to gather data from all that.

    We have no idea what they are working on because for all we know, they could possibly have a bunch of fixes for things but might be holding back for the release of DW or might continue that after. They have yet to prove that they aren’t doing anything so I will continue to be patient to see what they do.

    Although the orange and black forum wasn’t the greatest colour choice, it was a decision to try to make the forums match the new updated, more professional site. That is something I can understand so I’m sure that as time goes on, there will be changes that keeps the forums professional but the community can agree on.

    Everything will be done in time, it’s just a matter of what they deem most important first and how soon they can implement it.



  • It doesn’t really matter at this point, there is no Friday update because they are working on DW, have not fixed the SDK issues etc.

    This is the life of a development shop, as time goes on things struggle unless you have a good project manager.

    Back when they did the January release it was quite impressive, they added a lot of functionality in a short period of time.

    Since then, they unfortunately decided to work on some minor weapon timing fixes to appease the hardcore players, who ultimately will not stay around anyway.

    The one thing I don’t think they understand yet, is communication is better than no communication.

    Even if you say “hey SDK has some XYZ issues delaying it” it is 100x better than being silent and trying to hold your pride.

    But hey maybe when they are older they will realize.



  • What a useless thread.

    We get it, your in the game development business and you think your life is so hard.



  • Seeing that you made your account today literally to make this post suggests to me that you are probably a part of the dev team. But I do not care if that is the case, because I understand completely.

    I feel like Torn Banner is far too small to have created a game so ambitious. I think it grew a bit beyond their control, and having the opportunity for this partnership with Spike TV is not something they could afford to pass up, and likely couldn’t just postpone for another time. This means they are divided now, with much of their team and time dedicated to creating a (mostly) new game, and having little left over to optimize the game they’ve been working on up to now.

    Having a consumer base with such varying demands has its impact as well. They obviously cannot cater to everyone’s needs all at once. Lots of people wanted customization, lots of people want the SDK, and lots of people want bugs and exploits repaired. (Plenty don’t, because they exploit them, and these people work counter by pretending they aren’t a problem and putting them lower on TBS’s priority. Just adding to the problem.)

    Without being inside Torn Banner’s studio and witnessing the work firsthand, there’s no real way we can know what their work ethic and methodology is. Still, I give them the benefit of the doubt, because Chivalry is a much deeper and more complicated game than any AAA developer has ever dared to produce, even with ten times the budget.

    And so I wish TBS much more success to come, in hopes that they can afford a larger team that can realize the dream that Chivalry: Medieval Warfare gave us a taste of.



  • Morgannin, you’re probably right that they are too small for a game so ambitious. Thus I too hope they acquire enough leverage to achieve their best vision.

    @Morgannin09:

    Seeing that you made your account today literally to make this post suggests to me that you are probably a part of the dev team. But I do not care if that is the case, because I understand completely.

    Hmm I didn’t think about that at first, I see how that might be suspected given such circumstances. Well for the record, I’m just some dude in California who’s never even been to Toronto. I just bought the game one day and became a fan of their work; I know little of the devs themselves beyond watching them on Youtube. I happen to be a developer attempting to succeed professionally, so I just can’t help but feel respect for a studio that produces something I enjoy.

    I did make this account today, but not for this post. I had a question about gameplay mechanics and it seems it’s not live yet, so for now this thread is “the one.” I didn’t come here to pick fights; I intend for my future posts to be actual game discussion. So, probably a bad decision on my part to compose a rant for my second post ever. Sorry it just had to get off my chest I suppose. Actually I don’t want the message to be “screw you haters”, I just wanted to open some eyes to realities of surviving in the industry. Maybe if they understood the love of creating games, they wouldn’t hate while playing games.

    Alas, 'tis folly to try curbing hate on the internet, isn’t it? Well, I don’t regret trying. I’ve no more to say on the matter so readers, discuss or forget as you please. Moving on…



  • Lack of SDK is part of what’s killing the game.

    Should have been an earlier focus.



  • When the SDK is out no one will care anymore anyway.
    I’ll just move on to another game like I always do


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