A word about RESPECT: Put yourself in a dev's shoes.



  • @gregcau:

    I don’t think many people are disrespectful, most that are have left.

    But there are only 1,299 people playing on a Friday night and that is very low. With DW coming out half of them will switch to it and that will not be good.

    TBS has had a lot of feedback, but in general they have grown stubborn and no longer response to community feedback so unless something changes the writing is on the wall.

    Couldn’t agree more.



  • The point the OP is trying to make is that it’s not like TB can just magically wave a wand and fix these problems.

    That’s what you don’t get. If they could fix these issues they would.

    The problem is that it’s difficult to rewrite the code to fix the problems without introducing new ones and a lot of these problems are inherent to UDK because of lack of internet optimisation.

    TBS spent a lot of time optimising code before the release of CMW to get the game to be playable but they will never be free of lag related issues.



  • @Dr:

    The point the OP is trying to make is that it’s not like TB can just magically wave a wand and fix these problems.

    That’s what you don’t get. If they could fix these issues they would.

    The problem is that it’s difficult to rewrite the code to fix the problems without introducing new ones and a lot of these problems are inherent to UDK because of lack of internet optimisation.

    TBS spent a lot of time optimising code before the release of CMW to get the game to be playable but they will never be free of lag related issues.

    They introduced a lot of bugs that used to be fixed. They introduced no maps (oh but they have maps in the back burner), they promised the SDK but they switched to the lure of DW.

    Its their choice of course.



  • @gregcau:

    @Dr:

    The point the OP is trying to make is that it’s not like TB can just magically wave a wand and fix these problems.

    That’s what you don’t get. If they could fix these issues they would.

    The problem is that it’s difficult to rewrite the code to fix the problems without introducing new ones and a lot of these problems are inherent to UDK because of lack of internet optimisation.

    TBS spent a lot of time optimising code before the release of CMW to get the game to be playable but they will never be free of lag related issues.

    They introduced a lot of bugs that used to be fixed.

    That’s my point, trying to fix bugs causes other bugs. It’s not as easy to fix as you seem to think it is.

    @gregcau:

    They introduced no maps (oh but they have maps in the back burner),

    They did introduce new maps in one patch, I would prefer more as well but I’m realistic about what they can and can’t achieve.
    @gregcau:

    they promised the SDK but they switched to the lure of DW.

    That’s complete supposition and in fact false. I know because I actually use the SDK and have seen improvements in each patch. The devs (particularly Andrew and CrustaceanSoup) have personally helped me build my map not just by giving advice but providing sections of code for things I wanted to do but didn’t know how.

    Hardly seems like they “switched” to DW does it?



  • @Dr:

    @gregcau:

    They introduced a lot of bugs that used to be fixed.

    That’s my point, trying to fix bugs causes other bugs. It’s not as easy to fix as you seem to think it is.

    I am an enterprise software developer too, it is sloppy work indicative of a lack of a change control system, unit testing, validation scripts. But thats kids these days, little experience or pride in their work.
    @Dr:

    @gregcau:

    they promised the SDK but they switched to the lure of DW.

    That’s complete supposition and in fact false. I know because I actually use the SDK and have seen improvements in each patch. The devs (particularly Andrew and CrustaceanSoup) have personally helped me build my map not just by giving advice but providing sections of code for things I wanted to do but didn’t know how.

    Hardly seems like they “switched” to DW does it?

    Is the SDK live? Is it production ready? Are there any timelines provided as to when that will happen? Or are the resources focussed on a TV show. I suspect the latter.



  • @SirSmoke:

    Many perhaps assume that because video games are able to reach gross profits summing millions of dollars, the creators end up rolling in piles of cash.

    Clearly, you haven’t seen Steve sitting high upon his mighty throne made of gold looking over the team members making sure that they are working while fangirls feed him grapes. :D

    As for everything else you’ve said, game development is a lot of work. Chivalry is definitely a game made out of love.

    I know that some people don’t necessarily agree with their decision about DW, but at the end of the day, if they even want to continue to improve Chivalry, they need to keep the income flowing which is what DW is, plus who wouldn’t love to play DW. :D

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P, who have come together from all over the world to give us the game that we all enjoying playing. From that, they gathered together in one location to continue to push the efforts of making this game better and better. They’ve done a wonderful job so far and considering it’s their first title, there is obviously going to be some choices that players may not agree with.

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention. However, they also have to do things that will allow them to keep going, so even though there may be a few bugs here or there which seems like they aren’t getting dealt with (which is not the case), they’re just simply doing things in order as they see fit.

    Given the size of the team and what they have done, the amount of patches and content update is impressive, especially if you compare it to big companies that easily have teams 20 times the size of TB. There’s only so many bodies which can only do so many things so as they continue to do things which keeps them afloat, they will eventually be able to have the team grow.

    Chivalry is as much of a learning process for them as it is for us. The game hasn’t been out for a year but there’s been so much done for it. I think we should all just give it time and watch as they continue to deliver content. I have no idea what their game plan is, but I assume that once DW is out, that will allow up more time and resources to go back to Chivalry to fix the little things that need fixing.

    Considering that some studios mostly release the same game year after year with essentially the same problems, I think Torn Banner is definitely more than allowed to take as much time as needed, but then again it’s really not up to us to tell them what to do or when to do it.



  • @Keith:

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P

    Obviously sexist with only 12% of their workforce female.

    @Keith:

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention.

    Then why do Ask TBS posts take 2 months before they respond? Why was the balance council disbanded? Why did they say they would fix the hideous duel user interface and never do so?

    I could go on and on.



  • It is what it is, I’ve supported TBS for the last year but I can tell things are going to get ugly, purely due to poor business decisions, not because of greed or anything else. They just don’t understand their community and slapped each other on the back with a pure orange forum which has now dropped 80% of the user activity. Drink the coolaid and fail to see its not about me and my preferences but games are about building a community. A community can be appeased easily with some attention but when you ignore it and assume 1.2 million sales = do some other project and ignore CMW you have lost your user base.



  • SirSmoke, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I couldn’t agree more.



  • @gregcau:

    @Keith:

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P

    Obviously sexist with only 12% of their workforce female.

    @Keith:

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention.

    Then why do Ask TBS posts take 2 months before they respond? Why was the balance council disbanded? Why did they say they would fix the hideous duel user interface and never do so?

    I could go on and on.

    Because if they constantly answered questions, nothing would ever get done. As for the balance council, my guess is as good as any but I figured it’s because there’s no point having a small few voices when the community is making their voices heard in the forums so it’d make sense to gather data from all that.

    We have no idea what they are working on because for all we know, they could possibly have a bunch of fixes for things but might be holding back for the release of DW or might continue that after. They have yet to prove that they aren’t doing anything so I will continue to be patient to see what they do.

    Although the orange and black forum wasn’t the greatest colour choice, it was a decision to try to make the forums match the new updated, more professional site. That is something I can understand so I’m sure that as time goes on, there will be changes that keeps the forums professional but the community can agree on.

    Everything will be done in time, it’s just a matter of what they deem most important first and how soon they can implement it.



  • It doesn’t really matter at this point, there is no Friday update because they are working on DW, have not fixed the SDK issues etc.

    This is the life of a development shop, as time goes on things struggle unless you have a good project manager.

    Back when they did the January release it was quite impressive, they added a lot of functionality in a short period of time.

    Since then, they unfortunately decided to work on some minor weapon timing fixes to appease the hardcore players, who ultimately will not stay around anyway.

    The one thing I don’t think they understand yet, is communication is better than no communication.

    Even if you say “hey SDK has some XYZ issues delaying it” it is 100x better than being silent and trying to hold your pride.

    But hey maybe when they are older they will realize.



  • What a useless thread.

    We get it, your in the game development business and you think your life is so hard.



  • Seeing that you made your account today literally to make this post suggests to me that you are probably a part of the dev team. But I do not care if that is the case, because I understand completely.

    I feel like Torn Banner is far too small to have created a game so ambitious. I think it grew a bit beyond their control, and having the opportunity for this partnership with Spike TV is not something they could afford to pass up, and likely couldn’t just postpone for another time. This means they are divided now, with much of their team and time dedicated to creating a (mostly) new game, and having little left over to optimize the game they’ve been working on up to now.

    Having a consumer base with such varying demands has its impact as well. They obviously cannot cater to everyone’s needs all at once. Lots of people wanted customization, lots of people want the SDK, and lots of people want bugs and exploits repaired. (Plenty don’t, because they exploit them, and these people work counter by pretending they aren’t a problem and putting them lower on TBS’s priority. Just adding to the problem.)

    Without being inside Torn Banner’s studio and witnessing the work firsthand, there’s no real way we can know what their work ethic and methodology is. Still, I give them the benefit of the doubt, because Chivalry is a much deeper and more complicated game than any AAA developer has ever dared to produce, even with ten times the budget.

    And so I wish TBS much more success to come, in hopes that they can afford a larger team that can realize the dream that Chivalry: Medieval Warfare gave us a taste of.



  • Morgannin, you’re probably right that they are too small for a game so ambitious. Thus I too hope they acquire enough leverage to achieve their best vision.

    @Morgannin09:

    Seeing that you made your account today literally to make this post suggests to me that you are probably a part of the dev team. But I do not care if that is the case, because I understand completely.

    Hmm I didn’t think about that at first, I see how that might be suspected given such circumstances. Well for the record, I’m just some dude in California who’s never even been to Toronto. I just bought the game one day and became a fan of their work; I know little of the devs themselves beyond watching them on Youtube. I happen to be a developer attempting to succeed professionally, so I just can’t help but feel respect for a studio that produces something I enjoy.

    I did make this account today, but not for this post. I had a question about gameplay mechanics and it seems it’s not live yet, so for now this thread is “the one.” I didn’t come here to pick fights; I intend for my future posts to be actual game discussion. So, probably a bad decision on my part to compose a rant for my second post ever. Sorry it just had to get off my chest I suppose. Actually I don’t want the message to be “screw you haters”, I just wanted to open some eyes to realities of surviving in the industry. Maybe if they understood the love of creating games, they wouldn’t hate while playing games.

    Alas, 'tis folly to try curbing hate on the internet, isn’t it? Well, I don’t regret trying. I’ve no more to say on the matter so readers, discuss or forget as you please. Moving on…



  • Lack of SDK is part of what’s killing the game.

    Should have been an earlier focus.



  • When the SDK is out no one will care anymore anyway.
    I’ll just move on to another game like I always do



  • I think the mindset one can fall into when they get into a game they love, is that the developers will want to keep on devoting endless resources, effort and money to perfect it. Sometimes this is the case, but especially for a smaller company that did not ever expect their game to do as well as it did… it’s not really fair. I don’t know what the developers personally are thinking about Chivalry, but at the end of the day, they are still human right?

    I love this game, but I think entertaining ideas that Chivalry can be as polished MLG pro as SC2 or LoL is a bit unfair.



  • Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    I also don’t understand everything TBS did, but that’s no reason for flaming around.
    I think they did their job well and created a unique game, which is quite fun, even if there really could be more TO maps. But the hope hasn’t died. I’m pretty sure there will be more. More official ones and MANY more custom ones :)

    The game has it’s bugs and minor balancing issues, but I don’t think you can call it buggy as hell or anything like that.
    Want to play a really buggy game? I could recommend you one, but I’m not sure if it’s allowed in this forum :D

    The game runs smoothly on my pc and I set the graphics to nearly the highest. And my pc has become pretty slow.
    So you really can’t talk about performance issues caused by the game.



  • @The:

    I think the mindset one can fall into when they get into a game they love, is that the developers will want to keep on devoting endless resources, effort and money to perfect it. Sometimes this is the case, but especially for a smaller company that did not ever expect their game to do as well as it did… it’s not really fair. I don’t know what the developers personally are thinking about Chivalry, but at the end of the day, they are still human right?

    I love this game, but I think entertaining ideas that Chivalry can be as polished MLG pro as SC2 or LoL is a bit unfair.

    And I’m hoping they aren’t finding anything we say actually abusive, but I feel it’s not at all out of line for us to ask questions or even nag them about things that still remain as they are. Personally I don’t want them devoting endless hours to polishing the game etc., but I do think that they left off at a very bad point. I’ve heard that some of these things have been fixed internally, but all the while we wait the player count seems to be dropping (and this is just loosely based on the amount of people playing the game at normal peak hours, I don’t have anything more solid).

    Slapping yourselves on the back about player retention being the best it ever was and then not taking the time to quickly hotfix even the server browser/steam friends joining (at the very least THE SERVER BROWSER, a bug nearing two months now) just seems… well whatever word you want to use. Personally I choose “silly”.

    They say that it’s fixed internally. I think that should be the first thing to go live. Small, incremental patches have got to be easier to implement while keeping bugs at bay (this is a layman thinking, correct me if I’m wrong). If you introduce 10 new fixes every patch and bugs arise then you have 10 things to look at. If you introduce 3-4 new things every patch and bugs arise you have less than half the things to look at, plus it goes much faster and appeases the community more.



  • @Peter:

    Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    First off, I don’t think “TBS are nooooobs etc.” Honestly they made a great game, and did so with the odds against them. But, I do think they are making some bad decisions, and to answer your questions:

    1. We are not supposed to do better. If everyone were a professional video game developer selling products then the world would be a different place. This is a company offering their professional product to people who want to buy it. Do you require that all people who buy games be able to single-handedly do what a full studio of professional developers do? C’mon man.

    The attitude of “do better or shut up” is for people who can’t take criticism and shouldn’t be selling professional products/services. I DON’T think TBS falls into this category.

    2. I don’t think the game “sucks so hard” but I do think it has it’s fair share of issues. We continue playing it because we love it, which is the same reason we continue to complain about it.


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