A word about RESPECT: Put yourself in a dev's shoes.



  • @Keith:

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P

    Obviously sexist with only 12% of their workforce female.

    @Keith:

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention.

    Then why do Ask TBS posts take 2 months before they respond? Why was the balance council disbanded? Why did they say they would fix the hideous duel user interface and never do so?

    I could go on and on.



  • It is what it is, I’ve supported TBS for the last year but I can tell things are going to get ugly, purely due to poor business decisions, not because of greed or anything else. They just don’t understand their community and slapped each other on the back with a pure orange forum which has now dropped 80% of the user activity. Drink the coolaid and fail to see its not about me and my preferences but games are about building a community. A community can be appeased easily with some attention but when you ignore it and assume 1.2 million sales = do some other project and ignore CMW you have lost your user base.



  • SirSmoke, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I couldn’t agree more.



  • @gregcau:

    @Keith:

    They’re a group of talented young men and Kimi :P

    Obviously sexist with only 12% of their workforce female.

    @Keith:

    They do listen to us and they do pay attention.

    Then why do Ask TBS posts take 2 months before they respond? Why was the balance council disbanded? Why did they say they would fix the hideous duel user interface and never do so?

    I could go on and on.

    Because if they constantly answered questions, nothing would ever get done. As for the balance council, my guess is as good as any but I figured it’s because there’s no point having a small few voices when the community is making their voices heard in the forums so it’d make sense to gather data from all that.

    We have no idea what they are working on because for all we know, they could possibly have a bunch of fixes for things but might be holding back for the release of DW or might continue that after. They have yet to prove that they aren’t doing anything so I will continue to be patient to see what they do.

    Although the orange and black forum wasn’t the greatest colour choice, it was a decision to try to make the forums match the new updated, more professional site. That is something I can understand so I’m sure that as time goes on, there will be changes that keeps the forums professional but the community can agree on.

    Everything will be done in time, it’s just a matter of what they deem most important first and how soon they can implement it.



  • It doesn’t really matter at this point, there is no Friday update because they are working on DW, have not fixed the SDK issues etc.

    This is the life of a development shop, as time goes on things struggle unless you have a good project manager.

    Back when they did the January release it was quite impressive, they added a lot of functionality in a short period of time.

    Since then, they unfortunately decided to work on some minor weapon timing fixes to appease the hardcore players, who ultimately will not stay around anyway.

    The one thing I don’t think they understand yet, is communication is better than no communication.

    Even if you say “hey SDK has some XYZ issues delaying it” it is 100x better than being silent and trying to hold your pride.

    But hey maybe when they are older they will realize.



  • What a useless thread.

    We get it, your in the game development business and you think your life is so hard.



  • Seeing that you made your account today literally to make this post suggests to me that you are probably a part of the dev team. But I do not care if that is the case, because I understand completely.

    I feel like Torn Banner is far too small to have created a game so ambitious. I think it grew a bit beyond their control, and having the opportunity for this partnership with Spike TV is not something they could afford to pass up, and likely couldn’t just postpone for another time. This means they are divided now, with much of their team and time dedicated to creating a (mostly) new game, and having little left over to optimize the game they’ve been working on up to now.

    Having a consumer base with such varying demands has its impact as well. They obviously cannot cater to everyone’s needs all at once. Lots of people wanted customization, lots of people want the SDK, and lots of people want bugs and exploits repaired. (Plenty don’t, because they exploit them, and these people work counter by pretending they aren’t a problem and putting them lower on TBS’s priority. Just adding to the problem.)

    Without being inside Torn Banner’s studio and witnessing the work firsthand, there’s no real way we can know what their work ethic and methodology is. Still, I give them the benefit of the doubt, because Chivalry is a much deeper and more complicated game than any AAA developer has ever dared to produce, even with ten times the budget.

    And so I wish TBS much more success to come, in hopes that they can afford a larger team that can realize the dream that Chivalry: Medieval Warfare gave us a taste of.



  • Morgannin, you’re probably right that they are too small for a game so ambitious. Thus I too hope they acquire enough leverage to achieve their best vision.

    @Morgannin09:

    Seeing that you made your account today literally to make this post suggests to me that you are probably a part of the dev team. But I do not care if that is the case, because I understand completely.

    Hmm I didn’t think about that at first, I see how that might be suspected given such circumstances. Well for the record, I’m just some dude in California who’s never even been to Toronto. I just bought the game one day and became a fan of their work; I know little of the devs themselves beyond watching them on Youtube. I happen to be a developer attempting to succeed professionally, so I just can’t help but feel respect for a studio that produces something I enjoy.

    I did make this account today, but not for this post. I had a question about gameplay mechanics and it seems it’s not live yet, so for now this thread is “the one.” I didn’t come here to pick fights; I intend for my future posts to be actual game discussion. So, probably a bad decision on my part to compose a rant for my second post ever. Sorry it just had to get off my chest I suppose. Actually I don’t want the message to be “screw you haters”, I just wanted to open some eyes to realities of surviving in the industry. Maybe if they understood the love of creating games, they wouldn’t hate while playing games.

    Alas, 'tis folly to try curbing hate on the internet, isn’t it? Well, I don’t regret trying. I’ve no more to say on the matter so readers, discuss or forget as you please. Moving on…



  • Lack of SDK is part of what’s killing the game.

    Should have been an earlier focus.



  • When the SDK is out no one will care anymore anyway.
    I’ll just move on to another game like I always do



  • I think the mindset one can fall into when they get into a game they love, is that the developers will want to keep on devoting endless resources, effort and money to perfect it. Sometimes this is the case, but especially for a smaller company that did not ever expect their game to do as well as it did… it’s not really fair. I don’t know what the developers personally are thinking about Chivalry, but at the end of the day, they are still human right?

    I love this game, but I think entertaining ideas that Chivalry can be as polished MLG pro as SC2 or LoL is a bit unfair.



  • Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    I also don’t understand everything TBS did, but that’s no reason for flaming around.
    I think they did their job well and created a unique game, which is quite fun, even if there really could be more TO maps. But the hope hasn’t died. I’m pretty sure there will be more. More official ones and MANY more custom ones :)

    The game has it’s bugs and minor balancing issues, but I don’t think you can call it buggy as hell or anything like that.
    Want to play a really buggy game? I could recommend you one, but I’m not sure if it’s allowed in this forum :D

    The game runs smoothly on my pc and I set the graphics to nearly the highest. And my pc has become pretty slow.
    So you really can’t talk about performance issues caused by the game.



  • @The:

    I think the mindset one can fall into when they get into a game they love, is that the developers will want to keep on devoting endless resources, effort and money to perfect it. Sometimes this is the case, but especially for a smaller company that did not ever expect their game to do as well as it did… it’s not really fair. I don’t know what the developers personally are thinking about Chivalry, but at the end of the day, they are still human right?

    I love this game, but I think entertaining ideas that Chivalry can be as polished MLG pro as SC2 or LoL is a bit unfair.

    And I’m hoping they aren’t finding anything we say actually abusive, but I feel it’s not at all out of line for us to ask questions or even nag them about things that still remain as they are. Personally I don’t want them devoting endless hours to polishing the game etc., but I do think that they left off at a very bad point. I’ve heard that some of these things have been fixed internally, but all the while we wait the player count seems to be dropping (and this is just loosely based on the amount of people playing the game at normal peak hours, I don’t have anything more solid).

    Slapping yourselves on the back about player retention being the best it ever was and then not taking the time to quickly hotfix even the server browser/steam friends joining (at the very least THE SERVER BROWSER, a bug nearing two months now) just seems… well whatever word you want to use. Personally I choose “silly”.

    They say that it’s fixed internally. I think that should be the first thing to go live. Small, incremental patches have got to be easier to implement while keeping bugs at bay (this is a layman thinking, correct me if I’m wrong). If you introduce 10 new fixes every patch and bugs arise then you have 10 things to look at. If you introduce 3-4 new things every patch and bugs arise you have less than half the things to look at, plus it goes much faster and appeases the community more.



  • @Peter:

    Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    First off, I don’t think “TBS are nooooobs etc.” Honestly they made a great game, and did so with the odds against them. But, I do think they are making some bad decisions, and to answer your questions:

    1. We are not supposed to do better. If everyone were a professional video game developer selling products then the world would be a different place. This is a company offering their professional product to people who want to buy it. Do you require that all people who buy games be able to single-handedly do what a full studio of professional developers do? C’mon man.

    The attitude of “do better or shut up” is for people who can’t take criticism and shouldn’t be selling professional products/services. I DON’T think TBS falls into this category.

    2. I don’t think the game “sucks so hard” but I do think it has it’s fair share of issues. We continue playing it because we love it, which is the same reason we continue to complain about it.



  • Vanguard voice I whole heartedly agree. I applaud your well thought out and very concise message, OP. I posted a thread similar to this one a week or so ago, and you did a much better job at driving the point home. Reading back over it, I think mine sounded more like complaining about complaining.

    I think TB has done an exceptional job given their small team and limited resources. The obvious bugs don’t bother me so much that I feel inclined to go flaming on the forums. I love this game, and I’m looking forward to what DW has to offer.



  • @quigleyer:

    @Peter:

    Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    First off, I don’t think “TBS are nooooobs etc.” Honestly they made a great game, and did so with the odds against them. But, I do think they are making some bad decisions, and to answer your questions:

    1. We are not supposed to do better. If everyone were a professional video game developer selling products then the world would be a different place. This is a company offering their professional product to people who want to buy it. Do you require that all people who buy games be able to single-handedly do what a full studio of professional developers do? C’mon man.

    The attitude of “do better or shut up” is for people who can’t take criticism and shouldn’t be selling professional products/services. I DON’T think TBS falls into this category.

    2. I don’t think the game “sucks so hard” but I do think it has it’s fair share of issues. We continue playing it because we love it, which is the same reason we continue to complain about it.

    If you aren’t one of those, why do you seem to feel offended by my post?
    If you give constructive criticism then everything is alright. I just can’t stand those guys calling TBS “noobs”, for not making the game the way they want it to be.

    As I said I don’t agree with every decision of TBS, too. But I’m not talking like someone who could do it better.



  • I love this game.

    I also want to see more communication about developments for this game. This is not because I feel entitled simply out of immaturity. This is because the developers promised so much before release and yet it seems they have put this game on the back burner.

    Do I expect perfection? Of course not.

    Do I expect minor tweaks to adjust terrain issues and oddities (weird invisible wall by the fire switches, anyone?)? Yes. Because that is what was promised.

    Even if they eventually come back to it once their contract with Spike TV allows them to (probably at expiration), it will be too little too late at that point because by then, a huge part of the community will have moved on. I wish I were wrong, but my intuition has proven to be quite reliable over the years.

    Edit: typos.



  • @Peter:

    @quigleyer:

    @Peter van Parodin:

    Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    First off, I don’t think “TBS are nooooobs etc.” Honestly they made a great game, and did so with the odds against them. But, I do think they are making some bad decisions, and to answer your questions:

    1. We are not supposed to do better. If everyone were a professional video game developer selling products then the world would be a different place. This is a company offering their professional product to people who want to buy it. Do you require that all people who buy games be able to single-handedly do what a full studio of professional developers do? C’mon man.

    The attitude of “do better or shut up” is for people who can’t take criticism and shouldn’t be selling professional products/services. I DON’T think TBS falls into this category.

    2. I don’t think the game “sucks so hard” but I do think it has it’s fair share of issues. We continue playing it because we love it, which is the same reason we continue to complain about it.

    If you aren’t one of those, why do you seem to feel offended by my post?
    If you give constructive criticism then everything is alright. I just can’t stand those guys calling TBS “noobs”, for not making the game the way they want it to be.

    As I said I don’t agree with every decision of TBS, too. But I’m not talking like someone who could do it better.

    My responding to your post in no way indicates that it has offended me, but you have asked questions that I feel as though I wanted to answer. I had a very difficult time understanding how you think the first point on your two-part list/questionnaire is in any way reasonable, and I respectfully disagree with the thinking. If customers are not allowed to criticize something because they themselves can’t create it then you’re basically barring criticism entirely. If customers could create these things themselves they most likely would not be customers. Do you see my reasoning?

    Most of my beef with the game and the development comes down to simple support. Support in that some fairly glaring bugs (I won’t list unless asked) are still around after nearly 2 months, being brought upon by the last patch. I’m not one who wants or believes that TBS should give us new maps for free, or should completely re-wire how the game works, I just think the bugs need to be fixed.

    I have 1000 hours in this game and every iteration brings something different. This iteration brought on some bugs that make even joining a server more difficult than it should be. Please understand that the attitude of the developers towards the original game is something that can and will effect sales of their new game, which is something that can likely determine the future of TBS.

    If TBS goes down Chivalry goes down, as it’s an online game that requires more than just private servers run by a select number of individuals in order to thrive. Every bit of criticism I have provided is with the game’s best interest in mind, and there’s no way that you can believe that having the bugs from the last patch exist for 2 months is helping the game, or helping potential DW sales- regardless of whether or not you yourself could fix them. Take a look here, towards the middle of the page where I try and describe it:

    viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17894&start=40#p190982



  • I’d just like to remind everyone, that you can find updates regarding the game at multiple places:

    Official News Forum
    Facebook
    Twitter

    As I have mentioned before, I think Deadliest Warrior is the team’s main focus because the income they get from that will allow them to continue to work as a studio. If they can keep that going then you will see more bugs being fixed along with new stuff.

    Also, given how most studios don’t even release patch notes or bother to do anywhere near what Torn Banners has done, a lot of people need to have patience. There’s always a time for everything and just because there is something that you think that should be done or should have already been done, doesn’t mean they see it that way.

    There is lots of communication from the team regarding the game and updates. It seems that because it’s not at the rate that people would like, which seems to be everyday doesn’t make them deaf to the community voices.

    If you have been able to make it this far then you should be able to keep going. The updates, news and everything else has been at a good pace so just be happy that we’re at least hearing things rather than nothing at all.

    They pay attention and they listen but when your biggest priority is putting food on the table and a roof over your head, especially since most of them came from all over the world just to do this, I think the little bugs and other things become not as important. (but they are still important to them)

    Those that wait will be the ones that get the rewards of this always changing game.



  • @Keith:

    If you have been able to make it this far then you should be able to keep going.

    My main concern is not my ability to keep going, but the impact that some of this stuff has on new players and just players alike. Those of us who tread on and find work arounds and just deal with bugs (a lot of them are silly, but there are some true game-breakers in there, and a lot that will deter players’ interest) are not the ones I worry about, it’s the ones who don’t. Potential customers are made up of hardcore guys who can deal with it, it’s true- but the larger base of sales is going to be from people who will likely not be as resilient.

    It’s understandable that the studio is doing other things, and all I’m trying to get across right now is that the bugs that remain seemingly unfixed (whether or not they’re fixed internally/being worked on etc.) will indeed impact these sales.

    I truly do have the best wish for TBS, I like the game they made and I have high hopes for the future games they will make. My interest in bringing this to light is honestly because I don’t want the company to fail due to the word-of-mouth nature of customers and gamers’ intolerance with things that don’t work. If the company fails this game dies, and I’m one sad man.

    I don’t understand how they’re thinking that they sold a ton of copies, retained an alarmingly low number of players, and expect to sell well again. It doesn’t work like that.


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