A word about RESPECT: Put yourself in a dev's shoes.



  • I think the mindset one can fall into when they get into a game they love, is that the developers will want to keep on devoting endless resources, effort and money to perfect it. Sometimes this is the case, but especially for a smaller company that did not ever expect their game to do as well as it did… it’s not really fair. I don’t know what the developers personally are thinking about Chivalry, but at the end of the day, they are still human right?

    I love this game, but I think entertaining ideas that Chivalry can be as polished MLG pro as SC2 or LoL is a bit unfair.



  • Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    I also don’t understand everything TBS did, but that’s no reason for flaming around.
    I think they did their job well and created a unique game, which is quite fun, even if there really could be more TO maps. But the hope hasn’t died. I’m pretty sure there will be more. More official ones and MANY more custom ones :)

    The game has it’s bugs and minor balancing issues, but I don’t think you can call it buggy as hell or anything like that.
    Want to play a really buggy game? I could recommend you one, but I’m not sure if it’s allowed in this forum :D

    The game runs smoothly on my pc and I set the graphics to nearly the highest. And my pc has become pretty slow.
    So you really can’t talk about performance issues caused by the game.



  • @The:

    I think the mindset one can fall into when they get into a game they love, is that the developers will want to keep on devoting endless resources, effort and money to perfect it. Sometimes this is the case, but especially for a smaller company that did not ever expect their game to do as well as it did… it’s not really fair. I don’t know what the developers personally are thinking about Chivalry, but at the end of the day, they are still human right?

    I love this game, but I think entertaining ideas that Chivalry can be as polished MLG pro as SC2 or LoL is a bit unfair.

    And I’m hoping they aren’t finding anything we say actually abusive, but I feel it’s not at all out of line for us to ask questions or even nag them about things that still remain as they are. Personally I don’t want them devoting endless hours to polishing the game etc., but I do think that they left off at a very bad point. I’ve heard that some of these things have been fixed internally, but all the while we wait the player count seems to be dropping (and this is just loosely based on the amount of people playing the game at normal peak hours, I don’t have anything more solid).

    Slapping yourselves on the back about player retention being the best it ever was and then not taking the time to quickly hotfix even the server browser/steam friends joining (at the very least THE SERVER BROWSER, a bug nearing two months now) just seems… well whatever word you want to use. Personally I choose “silly”.

    They say that it’s fixed internally. I think that should be the first thing to go live. Small, incremental patches have got to be easier to implement while keeping bugs at bay (this is a layman thinking, correct me if I’m wrong). If you introduce 10 new fixes every patch and bugs arise then you have 10 things to look at. If you introduce 3-4 new things every patch and bugs arise you have less than half the things to look at, plus it goes much faster and appeases the community more.



  • @Peter:

    Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    First off, I don’t think “TBS are nooooobs etc.” Honestly they made a great game, and did so with the odds against them. But, I do think they are making some bad decisions, and to answer your questions:

    1. We are not supposed to do better. If everyone were a professional video game developer selling products then the world would be a different place. This is a company offering their professional product to people who want to buy it. Do you require that all people who buy games be able to single-handedly do what a full studio of professional developers do? C’mon man.

    The attitude of “do better or shut up” is for people who can’t take criticism and shouldn’t be selling professional products/services. I DON’T think TBS falls into this category.

    2. I don’t think the game “sucks so hard” but I do think it has it’s fair share of issues. We continue playing it because we love it, which is the same reason we continue to complain about it.



  • Vanguard voice I whole heartedly agree. I applaud your well thought out and very concise message, OP. I posted a thread similar to this one a week or so ago, and you did a much better job at driving the point home. Reading back over it, I think mine sounded more like complaining about complaining.

    I think TB has done an exceptional job given their small team and limited resources. The obvious bugs don’t bother me so much that I feel inclined to go flaming on the forums. I love this game, and I’m looking forward to what DW has to offer.



  • @quigleyer:

    @Peter:

    Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    First off, I don’t think “TBS are nooooobs etc.” Honestly they made a great game, and did so with the odds against them. But, I do think they are making some bad decisions, and to answer your questions:

    1. We are not supposed to do better. If everyone were a professional video game developer selling products then the world would be a different place. This is a company offering their professional product to people who want to buy it. Do you require that all people who buy games be able to single-handedly do what a full studio of professional developers do? C’mon man.

    The attitude of “do better or shut up” is for people who can’t take criticism and shouldn’t be selling professional products/services. I DON’T think TBS falls into this category.

    2. I don’t think the game “sucks so hard” but I do think it has it’s fair share of issues. We continue playing it because we love it, which is the same reason we continue to complain about it.

    If you aren’t one of those, why do you seem to feel offended by my post?
    If you give constructive criticism then everything is alright. I just can’t stand those guys calling TBS “noobs”, for not making the game the way they want it to be.

    As I said I don’t agree with every decision of TBS, too. But I’m not talking like someone who could do it better.



  • I love this game.

    I also want to see more communication about developments for this game. This is not because I feel entitled simply out of immaturity. This is because the developers promised so much before release and yet it seems they have put this game on the back burner.

    Do I expect perfection? Of course not.

    Do I expect minor tweaks to adjust terrain issues and oddities (weird invisible wall by the fire switches, anyone?)? Yes. Because that is what was promised.

    Even if they eventually come back to it once their contract with Spike TV allows them to (probably at expiration), it will be too little too late at that point because by then, a huge part of the community will have moved on. I wish I were wrong, but my intuition has proven to be quite reliable over the years.

    Edit: typos.



  • @Peter:

    @quigleyer:

    @Peter van Parodin:

    Yeah many people say stuff like: “TBS are noooobs they can’t make a game!”
    I always ask 2 questions to guys that say that.
    1. “Why don’t you show us you can do it better?”
    2. “Why do you play this game if it sucks so hard?”

    First off, I don’t think “TBS are nooooobs etc.” Honestly they made a great game, and did so with the odds against them. But, I do think they are making some bad decisions, and to answer your questions:

    1. We are not supposed to do better. If everyone were a professional video game developer selling products then the world would be a different place. This is a company offering their professional product to people who want to buy it. Do you require that all people who buy games be able to single-handedly do what a full studio of professional developers do? C’mon man.

    The attitude of “do better or shut up” is for people who can’t take criticism and shouldn’t be selling professional products/services. I DON’T think TBS falls into this category.

    2. I don’t think the game “sucks so hard” but I do think it has it’s fair share of issues. We continue playing it because we love it, which is the same reason we continue to complain about it.

    If you aren’t one of those, why do you seem to feel offended by my post?
    If you give constructive criticism then everything is alright. I just can’t stand those guys calling TBS “noobs”, for not making the game the way they want it to be.

    As I said I don’t agree with every decision of TBS, too. But I’m not talking like someone who could do it better.

    My responding to your post in no way indicates that it has offended me, but you have asked questions that I feel as though I wanted to answer. I had a very difficult time understanding how you think the first point on your two-part list/questionnaire is in any way reasonable, and I respectfully disagree with the thinking. If customers are not allowed to criticize something because they themselves can’t create it then you’re basically barring criticism entirely. If customers could create these things themselves they most likely would not be customers. Do you see my reasoning?

    Most of my beef with the game and the development comes down to simple support. Support in that some fairly glaring bugs (I won’t list unless asked) are still around after nearly 2 months, being brought upon by the last patch. I’m not one who wants or believes that TBS should give us new maps for free, or should completely re-wire how the game works, I just think the bugs need to be fixed.

    I have 1000 hours in this game and every iteration brings something different. This iteration brought on some bugs that make even joining a server more difficult than it should be. Please understand that the attitude of the developers towards the original game is something that can and will effect sales of their new game, which is something that can likely determine the future of TBS.

    If TBS goes down Chivalry goes down, as it’s an online game that requires more than just private servers run by a select number of individuals in order to thrive. Every bit of criticism I have provided is with the game’s best interest in mind, and there’s no way that you can believe that having the bugs from the last patch exist for 2 months is helping the game, or helping potential DW sales- regardless of whether or not you yourself could fix them. Take a look here, towards the middle of the page where I try and describe it:

    viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17894&start=40#p190982



  • I’d just like to remind everyone, that you can find updates regarding the game at multiple places:

    Official News Forum
    Facebook
    Twitter

    As I have mentioned before, I think Deadliest Warrior is the team’s main focus because the income they get from that will allow them to continue to work as a studio. If they can keep that going then you will see more bugs being fixed along with new stuff.

    Also, given how most studios don’t even release patch notes or bother to do anywhere near what Torn Banners has done, a lot of people need to have patience. There’s always a time for everything and just because there is something that you think that should be done or should have already been done, doesn’t mean they see it that way.

    There is lots of communication from the team regarding the game and updates. It seems that because it’s not at the rate that people would like, which seems to be everyday doesn’t make them deaf to the community voices.

    If you have been able to make it this far then you should be able to keep going. The updates, news and everything else has been at a good pace so just be happy that we’re at least hearing things rather than nothing at all.

    They pay attention and they listen but when your biggest priority is putting food on the table and a roof over your head, especially since most of them came from all over the world just to do this, I think the little bugs and other things become not as important. (but they are still important to them)

    Those that wait will be the ones that get the rewards of this always changing game.



  • @Keith:

    If you have been able to make it this far then you should be able to keep going.

    My main concern is not my ability to keep going, but the impact that some of this stuff has on new players and just players alike. Those of us who tread on and find work arounds and just deal with bugs (a lot of them are silly, but there are some true game-breakers in there, and a lot that will deter players’ interest) are not the ones I worry about, it’s the ones who don’t. Potential customers are made up of hardcore guys who can deal with it, it’s true- but the larger base of sales is going to be from people who will likely not be as resilient.

    It’s understandable that the studio is doing other things, and all I’m trying to get across right now is that the bugs that remain seemingly unfixed (whether or not they’re fixed internally/being worked on etc.) will indeed impact these sales.

    I truly do have the best wish for TBS, I like the game they made and I have high hopes for the future games they will make. My interest in bringing this to light is honestly because I don’t want the company to fail due to the word-of-mouth nature of customers and gamers’ intolerance with things that don’t work. If the company fails this game dies, and I’m one sad man.

    I don’t understand how they’re thinking that they sold a ton of copies, retained an alarmingly low number of players, and expect to sell well again. It doesn’t work like that.



  • I feel like we share the opinion on some things like that we both want to see them succeed. Also, as you are a freelancer, I hope there isn’t a point in time where you can’t find work. May a company come along and give you a nice contract to keep your income and life plentiful. :)



  • @quigleyer:

    If customers are not allowed to criticize something because they themselves can’t create it then you’re basically barring criticism entirely. If customers could create these things themselves they most likely would not be customers. Do you see my reasoning?

    I never said you aren’t allowed to criticize. All I said is that calling them “noobs”, “weakasses” and whatever else is stupid. Saying that means you think they are bad at doing what they do. That’s what I mean.
    It’s not constructive criticism it’s just useless flaming.
    And you really shouldn’t call someone a “noob” if you can’t do it better. Elsewise you have to call yourself a noob, too.
    Do you know what I mean?
    It’s like being a lvl 0 guy and calling a lvl 40 guy a noob for losing a fair fight to a lvl 50 guy.
    If I was the lvl 40 guy I’d just tell him: “Do it better!”
    I hope now you understand what I meant.
    And I admit I misunderstood you, too. And I’m sorry for that.



  • If the forums become nothing but people whining and complaining disrespectfully then the devs will stop reading and responding.

    TBH I think that’s already happened somewhat.



  • @Dr:

    If the forums become nothing but people whining and complaining disrespectfully then the devs will stop reading and responding.

    TBH I think that’s already happened somewhat.

    It’s the other way around.

    Devs do shitty job > People start complaining massively



  • @SirSmoke:

    For the frustrated, yes you may complain about whatever’s broken, but no you may not insult the people working on it. Show some respect.

    After I read paragraphs full of whine I decided to clue you in. The customers are always right. In other words customers vote with their dollars. Games that suck, are over hyped, fill with bugs, too many exploits, usually don’t have a long shelf life, fail, or fall to a hand full of fan boys that barely keep it alive.

    For many of us that have been around since 2005 and Age of Chivalry, we have spent thousands dollars and of hours combined in AOC and Chivalry and have spent far more than the game price. We have spend several thousand dollars in servers hosting so that there are more options than just the official servers, even more money over the years and upgrading computers just to be able to play this poorly optimized game at the lowest settings. We run clans, go out and promote the game free of charge to our friends. Many take time and post videos of instructions, others post up tweaks and trouble shooting all of this free of charge to make the game more playable for others that are struggling. Some of us made custom content for AOC and now Chivalry free of charge, in our own time. Some even go out of there way to create scripts and remote admin clients that the devs should have done. We don’t get paid for this.

    So when those of us that have put our time in grade with both the game and the devs, I am sorry but I feel every right to complain and bitch about some of the stupid decisions that have been made in the game. With more knowledge than the average player, yes we will bitch and complain because we want the game to be the best it can be. You would think that many of the hard lessons learned about game design, mechanics, player’s feedback from AOC would have been put to good use when creating Chiv but sadly much of it wasn’t.

    In AOC when radical changes were made to the game mechanics to nerf valid tactics and strategies the fan base went away with in a year or less and the game basically died except for us fanboys who hosted servers and kept it alive till Chiv was released 3.5 years later. Sorry but that is a long time to keep a game alive let alone a mod. So yeah, there are plenty of us that are more deeply invested in the devs and their game. When we see the same mistakes being made patch after patch, year after year, you wonder why we rage at some of the stupidity?

    Without the players and the fans, there is no game and no money. For us fanboys, it is not about the money, it is about the game, it’s complexities, challenges and a feeling that we have some input in how the game is developed. Thus when stupid decisions are made in the development we bitch up a storm. If the stupidity continues in the development, we vote with our dollars and time, move on to other games and this game dies a slow and agonizing death.



  • It’s a repeating occurrence that most games never end up pleasing both casual and veteran players alike. There are very few exceptions to this rule. How can you please both, especially as a smaller company? It’s clear they wanted to make the game a bit easier for newer players. It’s difficult to do this without causing a ruckus with experienced players. Did the changes made lower the skill ceiling? Yes, without question (when fighting more than one player). Is it unplayable? Far, far from it.

    I have to give them credit where its due, I think people forget that TBS never expected in their wildest dreams to sell 1.2 million copies and more. I’m sure it’s a shock, and trying to please everyone, as is the natural tendency, is virtually impossible.

    In a way, it’s good even for veterans, it should extend the life of the game. Without fresh blood coming in and more importantly staying, the game would fizzle off.



  • What you are missing is that the casual player rarely sticks around longer than a month or so before they move on to another game. But if the game is challenging and the veteran community helps in promoting the competitive play with dev support this leads to longevity. Creating a competitive buzz produces interest and even sponsors for tournaments. Dumbing it down does nothing but make noobs feel better and piss off the veterans. Not fixing major bugs or half assing much needed admin controls without proper testing or instructions have and does kill the game before it even has a chance to build a long term community and game life. So again if you do not fulfill your veteran fan base’s basic needs, ignore their complaints of stupid changes or game breaking bugs how long do you think a game will last? I cannot even tell you how many empty servers there are and clans that have gone the way of the Dodo.

    While I am sympathetic to the pressures from the community, the dev team needs to be thicker skinned and find the ability to weed out much of the crap and pay attention to those who are truly supporting them for years.



  • I tend to agree, but unfortunately I think that would never of really happened the way you or I had hoped (MLG super championship million + views $10,000+ prize pool tournaments).

    Would a game like SC2 ever have gotten to that point, or LoL, if it hadn’t of been structured initially in design around the goal of being extremely competitive? I’m not sure. And even if the design was on that level for Chivalry, I don’t think it’s possible for a small dev team that, remember, were not even in the same physical location before making this game; to polish it to the level that it needs to be for any serious competitive play to be considered.

    It’s a messy situation, but I don’t think pointing fingers and blaming anyone is going to solve or improve where we are. This game was a massive success, but I’m convinced it was never intended to be hyper competitive.



  • last i checked isnt respect earned?

    yeah tb has a great “concept” for a game, however im pretty sure its the execution of it that pisses everyone off, from the major lack on admin side of things to the game breaking bugs that ruin a players experience to the toxic trolls this comunity is so rampant with.

    empty promises and unfixed and unplayable game breaking bugs, catered to noobs and vangard swords and nerfed till broken gameplay can only get you so much respect my friend!

    im pretty sure most people lose respect for sumthing when they watch it for a whole year get literally nerfed till broken and abandoned all the while saying,offering valid points on why its a bad idea and what the outcomes will be and even giving epic solutions and fixes.

    just compare this to a car dealership for insatance, lets say you bought a car from them and it didnt start half the time and stalled out when driving and missed shifts and the clutch slipped and was basically a lemon because its inability to do what it was supposed to do which was work.

    instead of fixing that model and issuing recalls and selling you a worthy product or fixing the major issues they released a new model the very next year, would you even consider buying another car from them?
    i dont think so dude.
    and the consumer doesnt give a hoot about manufacture issues costs etc or he would be a manufacturer, we want working products thats why we bought them in the first place.

    oh and by the way if you watch one of the videos from the interviews with Tiberius he clearly states that they will be supporting chivalry for years to come!

    only time shall tell.



  • People are unhappy because Chivalry could have been a lot more, but it wasn’t at release and then concerns were ignored for months on end. They basically put everything into Content Update 1, people came to check out the game just before the major patch hit thanks to the free weekend, then immediately left.

    The overall health graph shows that no one actually stayed for CU1, quite the opposite in fact, there was steady decline until a small spike in April and then further decline until the summer sale bonanzas. For those that might say it’s not steady decline, all the little waves in between are simply the difference between night/day populations, there is clear and steady decline in population with the only gains being free weekends and sales.

    Doesn’t matter what SlyGoat or Torn Banner tells you, the facts are right there; people don’t like the game, obviously for various reasons, but the bottom line is that Torn Banner fucked it up. I don’t know where they came up with 1.2 million sales, but they make it sound like the game is doing fine. Copies sold does not equal players on servers and since the sales do not match the population at all, I’d hazard a guess that people don’t feel like it was worth the money and certainly won’t buy their next expansion/game at full price. I think Chivalry was worth the 50$ I gave them for it, but obviously the hardcore player is not their target demographic, so…

    You can have the casual gamers that have never stuck around, Torn Banner. Chase their money with all your might, but those who have always played the game and supported you from the beginning are all but gone. Congrats.


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