Spartan Weapons



  • A few things have lead us to believe more Spartan weapons are coming, I’m not sure what they will be so I thought I’d post a few ideas here. If anyone else has ideas or the devs want to let us know what they’re thinking that would be great.

    Firstly, I think the Dory needs to be held further back giving the spear more range. At the moment it is being near the middle of the shaft whereas it should be held closer to the back near the butt-spike (aka sarouter or “lizard-sticker”) which was both a counter weight and a weapon in case the spear broke.

    So my idea for another Spartan weapon is to be able to use the Sarouter, so if you select the Dory you can press 3 to change grip giving you a short stabbing weapon that also delivers a blunt overhead. Or maybe it just looks like a broken Dory.

    Other weapons could be the Sling but used with the shield or a one handed bronze axe. However as we already have the kopis as a heavy one handed chopper I don’t know how that would work.



  • You can’t get any power on a thrust if you hold a spear one-handed near the butt of it. Just holding it up in a balanced fashion would be far more tiring and inefficient than the way it is held now, which is the way that makes sense.



  • @Daiyuki:

    You can’t get any power on a thrust if you hold a spear one-handed near the butt of it. Just holding it up in a balanced fashion would be far more tiring and inefficient than the way it is held now, which is the way that makes sense.

    I thought you were supposed to hold a spear near the end of it, with the butt resting against your elbow for balance, so you get all the reach of the spear. Otherwise, it won’t be that long of a weapon if you hold it in the middle.

    I made this drawing some time ago, where you hold the spear like that, resting on the shield (keep in mind I drew a far too short spear.)

    This guy is holding the spear closer to the end of it too

    These guys are doing it too
    Ixm6sXe1TYE



  • @SavageBeatings:

    @Daiyuki:

    You can’t get any power on a thrust if you hold a spear one-handed near the butt of it. Just holding it up in a balanced fashion would be far more tiring and inefficient than the way it is held now, which is the way that makes sense.

    I thought you were supposed to hold a spear near the end of it, with the butt resting against your elbow for balance, so you get all the reach of the spear. Otherwise, it won’t be that long of a weapon if you hold it in the middle.

    I made this drawing some time ago, where you hold the spear like that, resting on the shield (keep in mind I drew a far too short spear.)
    […]

    Notice how none of those grips have the hand near the butt end of the spear, right beside the ass-spike, like this guy is suggesting. So the way you are describing is fine, as for the re-enactment video, they’re not going to get any power from that and they aren’t supposed to as it’s a re-enactment. If they think they will be able to penetrate chainmail with a stupid little poke as they are demonstrating, then just… lol.

    It’s just physics though, grip it further from the center of gravity and the less balanced the grip will be and thus the more effort you will have to expend to keep it straight. The best demonstration I can think of, since people don’t just have spears on hand, is to lift a chair by one of its legs. The further down the leg you go, away from the seat, the harder it is to lift. Same principle.

    Edit: What the video does show you well, mainly from the guy in the foreground on the left, is exactly what I am talking about, because see how often the speartip drops to the ground after one of his weak-ass pokes? It’s hard for him to hold the spear out straight, so he just kind of lets it fall. You really don’t want to do that when the whole point of a shield-and-spear wall is to keep the enemy back. As soon as the spear drops, it’s not a threat and can be held down by an opposing weapon/foot/shield and due to leverage, you’re not getting that spear up again and the enemy can freely advance on you. So sure you CAN do it, but the effort expended just holding the spear is effort you’re not putting into your strike and stamina you’re wasting by holding it like that when idle.



  • Note I’m far from what may be called an authority of the subject, but here are some thoughts.

    @Kiri:

    If they think they will be able to penetrate chainmail with a stupid little poke as they are demonstrating, then just… lol.

    The re-enactment isn’t strictly hoplite warfare (both it being a re-enactment and representative of a later time period both being relevant factors). Original hoplite warfare was designed by Greek citizens, only the richest of which would be able to afford a bronze cuirass. In general weight was a prominent consideration and there’s evidence that many generals would purposely equip their men with linen armor and smaller shields to allow for use of longer spears. This is relevant because many times they didn’t have to pierce chainmail. This means for the type of warfare it was designed for, the dory most likely COULD be held closer to the tip. Now in DW it will be trying to penetrate armor true, but I don’t think I need to bring up why that is irrelevant to how we should balance. Suffice to say, also considering the sauroter spike on the end of the weapon used as a counterbalance, and judging by the vast majority of art of the period (especially those of the Macedonian phalanx which illustrate even the much longer sarissa being gripped near the rear of the shaft), I think we can fairly confidently say that the dory and sarissa were manueverable one armed with a grip closer to the rear than what DW currently portrays.

    (Granted, I’m unsure if they want to edit the animations to reflect this, but yeah).

    The main contention among historians from what I read on the wiki is apparently whether it was more commonly wielded overhand or underhand. Overhand appears to have been superior for offense due to the leverage, while underhand appears to have been the better defensive option due to stability.

    About practical implications of this:

    Currently the tertiary attack (what looks to be an overhead grip stab) with the dory is just superior. It has the same range, better tracers, and more damage. What I thought might give the primary some utility is to increase its knockback and also cancel its lurch forward on backing up. These would give it a bit more utility (especially for those that don’t crouch while backing up to cancel lurch) while still giving reason to vary your attacks.



  • All I know is that you can easily hold those 7 foot spears from the butt and still thrust it in a well balanced manner.



  • Height I think everyone in this forum would appreciate more condensed responses.

    The tertiary stab on the dory kinda weak right now, perhaps it can get more knock back on it or a speed buff?



  • Oh shush Zombo there is nothing wrong with some in depth discussion :p



  • @HeightofAbsurdity:

    Note I’m far from what may be called an authority of the subject, but here are some thoughts.

    @Kiri:

    If they think they will be able to penetrate chainmail with a stupid little poke as they are demonstrating, then just… lol.

    The re-enactment isn’t strictly hoplite warfare (both it being a re-enactment and representative of a later time period both being relevant factors). Original hoplite warfare was designed by Greek citizens, only the richest of which would be able to afford a bronze cuirass. In general weight was a prominent consideration and there’s evidence that many generals would purposely equip their men with linen armor and smaller shields to allow for use of longer spears. This is relevant because many times they didn’t have to pierce chainmail. This means for the type of warfare it was designed for, the dory most likely COULD be held closer to the tip. Now in DW it will be trying to penetrate armor true, but I don’t think I need to bring up why that is irrelevant to how we should balance. Suffice to say, also considering the sauroter spike on the end of the weapon used as a counterbalance, and judging by the vast majority of art of the period (especially those of the Macedonian phalanx which illustrate even the much longer sarissa being gripped near the rear of the shaft), I think we can fairly confidently say that the dory and sarissa were manueverable one armed with a grip closer to the rear than what DW currently portrays.

    (Granted, I’m unsure if they want to edit the animations to reflect this, but yeah).

    The main contention among historians from what I read on the wiki is apparently whether it was more commonly wielded overhand or underhand. Overhand appears to have been superior for offense due to the leverage, while underhand appears to have been the better defensive option due to stability.

    About practical implications of this:

    Currently the tertiary attack (what looks to be an overhead grip stab) with the dory is just superior. It has the same range, better tracers, and more damage. What I thought might give the primary some utility is to increase its knockback and also cancel its lurch forward on backing up. These would give it a bit more utility (especially for those that don’t crouch while backing up to cancel lurch) while still giving reason to vary your attacks.

    As far as I know, they are working to balance this particular thing you mentioned, as well as numerous other issues, height. Just focusing on animations and core issues at the moment.

    I’d like to see the primary attack be the slower and powerful hit, while the tertiary attack remains a speedy lower damage hit (with slightly better range)



  • Sarissa looks like it’d be the most powerful weapon by far in a team setting. The range is beautiful.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Sarissa looks like it’d be the most powerful weapon by far in a team setting. The range is beautiful.

    I believe it was slowed down in the last patch, but I feel like it might need to be slowed further. It depends on how it balances out with the increased movement speed and the fact that the spartan is the 3rd most vulnerable class.

    And although the range is the best, you could argue the range on the dory is “good enough” for its speed benefits over the sarissa

    Very crazy weapon, either way. I’d like to see it have very little knockback.



  • Hoplites style was to hold your spear in the center and to hold it like you were gonna throw it. The Greeks and the Carthaginians and their satrapies all used this hope lite style. Even the early Romans did and eventually the Egyptians. It meant you could attack fast with accurate stabs and you could get far more power power into your stabs faster. These spears usually had counter weights at the back formed into a spike for more balance. Though it made it horrible for throwing as they then didn’t arc and their targets would just get a donk on the head instead of a spear through the face.

    The early roman Triarii were trained hoptlite style and had large circular shields. The hastati and pricepes had spears at the time also and with their scutum. There was also the rorarii which had the same shield and spear but were completely unarmoured. But they were all trained the barbarian way in which to use spears but fought in phalanxes instead of charging in. They held their spear near the back and used their elbow. Roman spears had a counter weight while most barbarian ones didn’t. The military was reformed so the hastati and pricepes used swords and the rorarii was ditched and the men who once classified as the rorarii and leves were turned into the velites. The Triarii then looked like the old pricepes but often with better armour.

    Triarii were also very good with the sword especially when a small reform made it so it was based by experience as not wealth. So most Triarii had been swordsmen before. With hoplites from all cultures they weren’t really trained in using the sword. They just had. Triarii often had to drop their spears and use their sword as their spears were longer and technique different so when things became close quarters they simply dropped there spear and pulled out their sword. There’s also evidence in soldier diaries that the front rank dropped their spears and used swords while the second rank balanced their spears on the shield of the man in front. So enemies had to what out for 2 things stabbing them rather than just one. Hoplites techniques were made to fight against infantry at any range so they didn’t need their swords so weren’t trained as much with them. And they hardly ever used them. Only if they lost their spear or it got knocked out of their hand. Not to say they were completely useless with them. They knew their way around a sword they just weren’t as good as a soldier who’s main weapon is a sword.

    So if they added some roman or barbarian in then we will see that technique of one handed spear. After the Marian reforms the auxailry took the role of spearman. And they even used the longer oval or hexagon shields which made them look more like barbarians. Though they wore chain armour and had the same legionary helmet.

    Also with spears and penetrating chain. Go get someone to stab you while you are wearing chainmail. It packs way more power than a sword stab. My cousin is a reactor and got himself some chainmail armour just to be different than everyone else who use plate. The swords give him a few bruises. But someone had a spear and stabbed him right in the stomach and he was just down. It was blunted obviously but a stab from that can cripple a man. Even if it doesn’t pierce. And in war the guy with the spear is actually trying to kill you so its sharp and has far more force behind it.



  • klOc9C-aPr4

    I-xtFXThEOc



  • Yes But what he fails to see is that over arm is much better against swordsmen than under arm. And against other hoplites. Over arm allows you to use your enemies shield so you can stab him In the neck usually where there is no armour. Going under his shield is bad as all he has to do is quickly push his shield down and you have so weapon.

    And with under arm with a spear in a phalanx its far easier for enemies to get close and kill you. A pike balance will have about 4 spear points they have to get past to get at you. An underarm spear has chad about 2. And once they get close you are screwed. Though that’s what the Romans did by they were well trained and experienced in sword use.

    Underarm strangely enough is better against cavalry. As its easier to brace yourself.

    Against untrained men it didn’t really matter.

    And he says time and time again its what he believes. Just because you believe something dotsnt make it true.

    He didn’t really go over the pros of over arm.



  • Actually the truth is that you would change the position of your hand depending on who you were fighting and the context. There’s no single best place to hold a spear. That’s why you see different positions in different art from the period.

    If you’re in the front row you may want to hold the spear in the middle to get a faster stab but if your standing behind them you might want to hold it further back to get more range so you can attack from the second row.

    As far as saying you couldn’t hold it further back because of ‘reasons’ or some armchair understanding of physics, I have actually practised and fought for years with a spear single handed and it didn’t even have the counter-balance that the Dory has so I know for a fact it’s both controllable and can deliver a deadly thrust.

    The best thing to do would be allow the player to shift grip but that’s probably too much work.



  • @Dr:

    Actually the truth is that you would change the position of your hand depending on who you were fighting and the context. There’s no single best place to hold a spear. That’s why you see different positions in different art from the period.

    If you’re in the front row you may want to hold the spear in the middle to get a faster stab but if your standing behind them you might want to hold it further back to get more range so you can attack from the second row.

    As far as saying you couldn’t hold it further back because of ‘reasons’ or some armchair understanding of physics, I have actually practised and fought for years with a spear single handed and it didn’t even have the counter-balance that the Dory has so I know for a fact it’s both controllable and can deliver a deadly thrust.

    The best thing to do would be allow the player to shift grip but that’s probably too much work.

    The javelin archer. Shifts his grip pretty fast. He literally throws it twists his arm around then catches it.


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