Poll: Improving health gain system



  • I think the health regain system could use an update for DW. There’s just too much downtime and running around, with less time doing the actual fun stuff (fighting in prolonged melee combat) than the original Chiv. Faster combat and lower time-to-kill (guns, combo speed increases, projectile defenseless classes) means everyone is dying quickly and running back from spawn at the start of the map. Personally, it seems like 90% of the time is spent traveling/regening/doing boring stuff, 10% actually swinging/blocking and engaged in combat.

    Since War of the Vikings is now commercially available (early access), we’re free to talk about it. I’m a huge fan of the mechanics they’ve implemented to minimize downtime wherever they can, particularly their 6 second manual bandage. It does wonders for keeping the action constant. Players support each other and tend to stick together, with both teams forming clear frontlines. Players skirmish back and forth to fight/harass or heal/revive - this happens naturally in pubs without organization. If DW is 90% running/boring shit and 10% actual combat, I’d say WotV is a good 60% fighting (or at least time spent in a very close vicinity to the frontlines/an opponent), 40% healing/traveling/downtime.

    Let’s compare a few scenarios:

    1. Get hit by a random projectile, or get clipped by friendly swings.

    DW: If you didn’t get gibbed outright by guns, you can either back off to hide, then regen while walking back, which usually takes anywhere from 20s to 1m to get back in combat. Or attempt suicide charge and die from the first melee hit you take.

    WotV: Break LOS (run behind a nearby pillar, or a friendly shield), or just back away from the frontlines a bit, 6 second bandage, immediately back in the fight with full HP.

    1. Some players get hurt in a team fight. Frontlines travel to meet each other for next fight.

    DW: Some players run off to heal in safety, or start walking while regenning causing them to lag behind. Other players sprint off towards combat, splitting the team because healing/walking takes too long. Map usually looks like a stream of respawning players with pockets of quickly finished, sporadic combat.

    More organized teams may walk/camp with the weak players, slowing down the rate of contact between teams even more.

    WotV: 6 second manual bandage and fast travel mode means everyone can stick together, and recovering players are rarely far from action. Usually it’s two hordes engaged in a big chunk of combat close by, accessible in seconds.

    1. Actual mass teams fights.

    DW: Both sides charge each other, then you see who can get the most damage in/backstab better before dying. Once one side is down a couple players, they get gangbanged from multiple angles. Fights usually end in under 20s. Defeated side respawns back from their side of the map - repeat. Wounded players rarely back off from melee, it’s more effective to just try to backstab/kill as quickly as you can, so there’s almost never any prolonged back-and-forth action or skirmishing.

    WotV: Damaged players can manually heal anywhere back to full hp in 6s. If you get hurt you can try to back off further from the front lines to heal while your teammates protect you. Covering each other and skirmishing (dealing damage, backing off to recover) is effective and important. There’s more prolonged frontline contact, the combat is always nearby.

    1. Harass tactics and flanking.

    DW: Flanking, harassing large groups with one or two players, assassinating shooters/campers in the back lines is extremely risky. You get hit by a single projectile and your mission is over from being too worn down - go run away or camp a rock for 30 seconds. People will just sprint down loners and surround/backstab them. You have to be very skilled, and it’s almost always an all-in suicide mission once you decide to engage, due to the chase mechanic and glacial HP regen.

    WotV: Flankers and lone assassins can be very effective at getting into position, surrounding groups and shifting attention. You can dart in and out of cover to reach their back lines - a stray shot won’t end your mission since you can manually heal. If you surprise someone or get into a 1v1 fight in their backlines before too many people notice, you can quickly kill someone, heal, and win a string of fights.
    Harassing large zergs by doing some damage, backing away/healing, then returning is a viable tactic for skilled players.

    Granted, WotV has several other mechanics that cut out downtime (travel mode, spawning on teammates near combat, tackling runners, revives), but the manual bandage plays the biggest role.

    Here are a few options that could be experimented with for DW:

    Increase health gain per tick of regen

    6x hp per tick. Since regen takes a long time to kick in, with it being disabled by everything except walking, and the existence of a chase mechanic, laming out fights was never really an option. This is the most simple and effective way to cut out the downtime for out-of-combat players. It’s also arguable that having less restrictions to activate regen could be a great thing given the quicker combat here - you get longer prolonged combat in team fights, with people skirmishing in and out of the frontlines to recover, with more strategy involving protecting your own players while attempting to finish off theirs.

    Channeled self-heal/self-bandage

    You are rooted in place while channeling a lengthy (~6-10s) animation, interruptible by other players. Upon completion you receive full HP.

    **Standing taunt recovers HP

    Standing taunt recovers a chunk of HP (15%-20%) at the end of the animation. Interruptible by other players. Used to supplement existing HP regen.

    So what improvements would you like to see to the heatlh regain system, if any? Is the slow, restrictive regen (doesn’t kick in for a while, and you can’t perform any actions except walk) from the original Chiv really sufficient for a faster paced game like DW?**



  • I agree that the system COULD be a bit better. Noone likes being out of the action for prolonged periods of time. A very slight buff would be nice, IMO.



  • @Derpasaur:

    I agree that the system COULD be a bit better. Noone likes being out of the action for prolonged periods of time. A very slight buff would be nice, IMO.

    At the same time you want it to matter if you injure an opponent. You don’t want them jumping back into combat at full health only 6 seconds later…



  • I agree, maybe leeches instead of bandages :P

    However how would this affect the pirates rum bottle? Seems like that would make his special ability redundant.



  • [[quote=Dr.Nick]@Derpasaur:

    I agree that the system COULD be a bit better. Noone likes being out of the action for prolonged periods of time. A very slight buff would be nice, IMO.

    At the same time you want it to matter if you injure an opponent. You don’t want them jumping back into combat at full health only 6 seconds later…

    You could just interrupt and finish off someone who’s bandaging. 6s is a long time in a melee game which has both sprint+attack and a chase mechanic.

    The entire purpose of a 6 second heal is to keep players near the frontlines, so there are longer teamfights where strategy becomes important (protecting/covering teammates, vs doing team pushes attempting to finish off opponents) instead of the 10-20s domino-effect, zerg-roll battles we have now. What bandage affects most is sniping/projectile shotgunning - if you hit someone with a projectile right now they’re pretty much screwed in their next melee fight, or forced out of the fight/useless for ~30s. Flanking tactics/melee harassers are being overly punished with all the deadly gunfire and lack of healing.

    @Dr:

    However how would this affect the pirates rum bottle? Seems like that would make his special ability redundant.

    Ironically pirates are the class least in need of extra regeneration.

    Anyway for taunt heals, Ninja could sit in lotus pose to meditate, Samurai sits in Zazen, Vikings eat
    .



  • I like the shouting heal mechanic because it doesn’t need new animations and such to be implemented.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    @Derpasaur:

    I agree that the system COULD be a bit better. Noone likes being out of the action for prolonged periods of time. A very slight buff would be nice, IMO.

    At the same time you want it to matter if you injure an opponent. You don’t want them jumping back into combat at full health only 6 seconds later…

    If they only get one or two bandages, why not? Teammates covering heals would make fights WAY more interesting and gives archers juicy targets.



  • @kwazi:

    I like the shouting heal mechanic because it doesn’t need new animations and such to be implemented.

    I have always proposed giving stamina back with a warcry but I’m not sure about health…Perhaps a boost to health regen but not instant health.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    @kwazi:

    I like the shouting heal mechanic because it doesn’t need new animations and such to be implemented.

    I have always proposed giving stamina back with a warcry but I’m not sure about health…Perhaps a boost to health regen but not instant health.

    I actually think it’s a good idea; you’re totally invulnerable for a few seconds, it doesn’t require new animations and people are familiar with it. However it should only give you 25% health or something, not full recovery and should have a hefty cooldown before it can be used again.

    On the topic of health, I’ve always imagined it more as armour quality. There’s no way someone can actually take a thrust to the body with a sword and keep fighting but if the health bar is actually measuring your armour integrity then what’s happened is that the sword thrust maybe broke a rib or something but most of the damage is to your armour. At least the first half of the bar anyway.

    That works for CMW but not for CDW because we have pirates and ninjas who are unarmoured.



  • Playing this game made me realize how ridiculously slow getting to combat is after taking a hit. I definitely want a change to the health regen system. I was thinking of a battleshout not-cancellable by any means (switching weapons) that increased your health regen (Regen will probably kick in near the end). If an enemy wanted to interrupt you he can hit you because you’re vulnerable and stop the regen or just kick to deal kick damage and stop the regen.

    You’d still have to walk but it’ll be far quicker to get back into combat which helps both new players and hopefully is a big enough incentive to for teams to push in and get a quick kill while their teammate is healing. I can’t imagine new players not enjoying being able to get back into the battle quicker.

    Pros:
    Faster combat
    Less downtime between fights, GREAT for new players and I would imagine for player retention as well
    Map size has slightly less impact because you’ll be walking for a shorter distance
    After eliminating non headshot 1shot ranged, better dealing with ranged hits without waiting 20 years
    An opportunity for an attack if the map is a good size aka not supergiant
    Not really abuseable in duels unless the map is unnecessarily big vs just base regen increase

    Cons:
    Ranged combat would still be the primary goal because of kiting, although you can run their ammo out if they’re dumb enough to keep taking far ranged shots but that’s not really a thing with good players
    Might encourage more camping because ranged units can just heal and keep shooting

    Honestly, you can fix ranged and map size but the slow flow of combat because of health issues will still remain and new players will probably be turned off by how long you have to wait in order to not get 1shotted.

    This is definitely a big but subtle problem and probably one of the many reasons for poor player retention in MW.

    I like shout regen because of how loud the shout is (a bandaging sound can be implemented as well) alerting your enemies and your teammates that you are healing and also because TB doesn’t really need to add anything new to implement it for testing. The health regen values can be adjusted so the feeling of a teammate being out of the fight for healing is impactful but the regen also gives players options- they can walk with their team while regenning and they can wait for 1 or 2 ticks and get back into the fight if they so desire.



  • I feel like the regen delay is fine but the speed to regen to full hp is too slow…



  • I really think it is fine the way it is, when I first started playing I found it rather cheesy that my health came back to begin with and have had friends I introduced to the game mention the same.



  • I don’t really like the idea of instant health. Players should be rewarded for doing damage. As it stands a player who can last a long time without dying, getting kills, and taking minimum hits clearly deserves to live. It is risk vs reward. Drop out of a skirmish to regen, or continue fighting with low health and help teammates. The long wait times are more of a map issue, not necessarily a combat issue.


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