CFTP, Feint & Feint to parry



  • I wanted to make a thread on these arguably most controversial mechanics in Chivalry to hear other opinions on this matter for Deadliest Warrior and how to change/improve these basic mechanics.

    1. Feint & Feint to parry

    Feints are weak in DW. They are rather easy to read in comparsion to CMW, and laughably easy to sidestep thanks to the fast movement speed. Now this isn’t a bad thing, it creates less monotone gameplay.

    As crazy as this might sound to some people, i want to buff feints. Yes, but not for the offensive part, but for Feint to parry.

    Heres my suggestion to this:

    Raise feint window back to 300ms
    Reduce parry delay time by 0.075-0.100

    Now what will this do?

    Obviously you can still sidestep feints VERY easily.
    You can double parry “late feints” thanks to reduced parry delay time.
    You have to learn to feint properly.

    This will punish feinters who use late feints and make them waste stamina while increasing the feint to parry window significantly, giving the player more control, which leads to less hit trades from good players and to a higher skill based game.

    An alternative suggestion for this would be to implement a new mechanic that doesn’t allow a followup attack after a feint after 150ms into the windup.

    2. Combo feint to parry

    Proponents of the removal of CFtP often cite that you could apply pressure while simultaneously remaining defensive, that you could choose to combo, OR, go into parry. The crux of this argument comes down to “You shouldn’t be able to do that.” which is a matter of opinion and cannot be proven one way or the other.

    Removing panic parry was a step into the right direction, now you need something to replace the hole it left. Basically its not fun nor good for the game that you can NOT fight multiple opponents “properly” without losing control over your player.

    I set properly into " because you can still fight multiple opponents, but only with dancing,kiting,matrix or some other stuff that doesn’t work without a bit of luck. And that is against bad opponents that have 500 hours less then me and are far less skilled.

    I know that you can dance around better in Deadliest Warrior because of the faster speed. But that feeling that there is an artificial “wall” that you hit, that makes the game feel a lot slower and more clunky, is still there.

    I dont think its good that comboing against multiple enemys equals dead most of the time because you completely lose control. I think combos are a huge part of the games combat and its not right that in order to fight multiple, decent players you have to do “one way” attacks and dumb yourself down.

    A good player can always beat multiple, worse players even without CFTP, but you need to be lucky for it because you have no influence if they hit their attacks or not sometimes.

    Ever since CFTP was removed, the game lost its high paced combat “flow”.

    Im not a good writer but this basically sums it up for me give or take. Higher player control is ALWAYS good, especially for a game like chivalry. I also feel like alot of competitive player disliked the removal of this.

    Suggestion:
    Bring back CFTP, keep stamina values as they are right now.
    Include in Tutorial (it makes sense with the mechanics!)

    Think about it, anyone who is good at the game knows that CFTP is weak and can be countered.

    It has a hard counter (feint) which brings you into a horrible position. Just bring it back to bring back the awesome flow of combat chivalry had with CFTP in Team modes.

    Its not even that needed anymore as in CMW because with the high speed you can get out of bad situations easier. However it would still be amazing to have as a additional tool you can use.

    I was actually the one who made the big “Anti CFTP” thread very back then in March. I was a fool and now i realized that that was a big mistake. I learned, and realized how good it actually was for the game.

    Artificial skill caps that dumb down a good player are bad.

    Anyway this sums up my thoughts

    tldr; Bring back old FTP and CFTP to give back the high amount of player control, less hit trades and a more skill based, fun game.



  • Ever since CFTP was removed, the game lost its high paced combat “flow”.

    This. That is exactly how I feel about CMW at the moment. FFA used to be extremely fun taking on 3 or 4 people at once and still coming out alive. It added to the immersion. Now, just like Crushed has said, you can only really benefit from single attacks, maybe even resorting to killstealing since combo’s are not as effective as they once were. CFtP was never an “op” feature as some may think, it takes a bit of skill to know when to do it and was much better than the current panic parry.



  • For me personally these basic mechanics will decide if the game will become top or flop for the competitive aspect of the game, simple as that.



  • No future Ninja will back this. :P

    Would certainly be a great reintroduction of a logical combination of mechanics though I think the feint window doesn’t need to be raised again, just a tad bit maybe. Flash-feints work pretty good right now.

    I would love to see this more than anything as well haha :(



  • Oh yeah forgot to add how op the dodge is without this :D



  • An extra 25 point stamina point on top of the feint and parry stamina losses.



  • We definitely need CFTP now that panic parry is gone.



  • And no riposte off it.



  • CFTP purpose is to be able to fight multiple opponents without tanking hits all day. If the riposte is gone you cant really fight multiple opponents with it :D



  • @CRUSHED:

    CFTP purpose is to be able to fight multiple opponents without tanking hits all day. If the riposte is gone you cant really fight multiple opponents with it :D

    Problem is it has more than that one purpose.

    Its primary purpose is to save your own arse when you are playing aggressively and are about to get hit. This happens in group fights.

    Imagine a new player who finally gets an opportunity to hit this good player who just made a mistake by being overly aggressive. Then he says fuck your rules parries and stabs you in the face.

    Now in your competitive niche its not a problem but look at the bigger picture. The rest of us want people to play with.

    With multiple opponents I target switch a lot and try to position my self so I’m only fighting one at a time.

    That’s why a competitive mod will be the better option rather than make the whole game for the minority.



  • Riposte should not exist with CFtP. Even without the riposte it is still strong. Also, at MOST reduce parry delay by 0.1 (I’m assuming the timing is still 0.4?)

    @CRUSHED:

    For me personally these basic mechanics will decide if the game will become top or flop for the competitive aspect of the game, simple as that.

    Support for competitive gameplay is what will make it flop or not for competitive play. I.e. automation for stat tracking and matchmaking, events, sponsored tournaments, etc.



  • @CRUSHED:

    CFTP purpose is to be able to fight multiple opponents without tanking hits all day. If the riposte is gone you cant really fight multiple opponents with it :D

    CFTP was an unintentional mechanic that had no planned purpose. We can make it easier to fight multiple opponents without reintroducing that horrible monstrosity.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Riposte should not exist with CFtP. Even without the riposte it is still strong. Also, at MOST reduce parry delay by 0.1 (I’m assuming the timing is still 0.4?)

    Why should it not exist?
    In my eyes it’s just another unnecessary limitation for no reason and it’s not at all difficult to deal with. When it was still in chiv it was kind of a standard move, pretty much everyone could deal with it no problem so more experienced players didn’t use it much anymore.
    At the end of the day it is all about timing.
    And that pub argument just doesn’t count for me, you either have a skill based game or just a game you log on every once in a while to spam around a bit.



  • I’ve never made a pub argument, I don’t care about pub play.

    Also I might have made it a bit unclear.

    No riposte if there is no parry delay after feint, and large stamina cost. Otherwise, parry delay as it is now (0.4), perhaps may be worthwhile to reduce it to MINIMUM 0.3, allow riposte.

    There is no question that the game is skill-based, regardless of CFtP or the current system in CMW is in place. The game has already proved how good the combat is and what competitive TO games have to offer.

    With that said, what people think will truly affect the competitive scene and bolster it – with an acquired taste of certain mechanics to their own liking – is not actually going to boost the scene. Balance will be addressed (it is alpha(?) after all), fluidity will be refined. Things that cater to competitive players are logistics and the broad strokes, not the little minute designs.

    As far as broad strokes are concerned, I’ve been generally pleased with TBS.



  • @lemonater47:

    @CRUSHED:

    CFTP purpose is to be able to fight multiple opponents without tanking hits all day. If the riposte is gone you cant really fight multiple opponents with it :D

    Problem is it has more than that one purpose.

    Its primary purpose is to save your own arse when you are playing aggressively and are about to get hit. This happens in group fights.

    Imagine a new player who finally gets an opportunity to hit this good player who just made a mistake by being overly aggressive. Then he says fuck your rules parries and stabs you in the face.

    Now in your competitive niche its not a problem but look at the bigger picture. The rest of us want people to play with.

    With multiple opponents I target switch a lot and try to position my self so I’m only fighting one at a time.

    That’s why a competitive mod will be the better option rather than make the whole game for the minority.

    If the main game can be competitive as well there is no reason why it should not be.
    Limiting control for comp players in order for new players to not be at such a disadvantage is not
    essential for the game to be fun to get into and is even harmful as a placeholder for proper tutorials, matchmaking and other methods to help new players to get into the game.

    Oh and with your scenario there is nothing to stop the new player parrying the stab.
    Even so I think it is debatable if the riposte is needed or not but I think it would be better to use other means to balance it other than taking away control for the player.



  • Personally I would like to see something rather than CFTP replace panic parry. I would like people to throw some ideas around rather than just get stuck in an argument about whether to bring back CFTP or not.

    If CFTP does get brought back I definitely think there should be higher stam cost and no riposte. Otherwise it just pushes high level play into the place it was previously in CMW: the good players in pubs are almost always running, kiting, constantly comboing and CFTP whenever they make a mistake.

    I think it is important to remember that CFTP was unintended and people didn’t really know about it until months after release, and even then it wasn’t widely known unless you were in a clan or on the forums. The first I heard about it was a video I saw here that showed the “quick parry” but didn’t show how to do it because they thought it was a glitch that needed to be fixed.



  • panic parry should be left in the grave 100%

    like what I said back in the giant thread (and what nova said in this thread) testing a shorter (.3?) parry lockout would be ideal here since it gives you a bit more time to parry the incoming but i disagree with it being “needed for the comp scene to grow”
    i am strictly talking about teamfighting here and not pubs/last man standing 2v1s. in teamfights you can move and use parries (with the occasional attack when needed) to stall for your teammates which is pretty much the ideal situation when you get yourself into a 2v1.

    feint to neutral is the ideal move to make if you’re in a 2v1 situation unless you’re in a good position to combo target switch. complaining about how “you can’t use combos when you’re 2v1ing” is a really silly thing to complain about because 1. you can if you use it smartly and 2. expecting combos to work and for you to be able to shift into defense if you fail is pretty dumb since you’re in control whether you want to start the combo or not
    feint to neutral also gives the player the most options- parry, movement, attack vs just straight up wanting a fast ctfp
    it’s pretty much the same request except what i’m asking is testing a shorter parry lockout vs no parry lockout

    also people thinking this mechanic is needed for comp play is hilarious as this game is missing basic functions of a modern “esports” game such as replays
    what this game needs in order to succeed:
    1. a good tutorial, i cannot stress this enough- none of this onscreen reading tips, initialize fast but precise handholding
    2. replay/demo system, with a good spectator/firstperson cam so people can create SIKK FRAGVIDEOS (usergenerated content) better thus spreading word about the game
    3. SDK release ASAP, preferably on launch to ride the initial hype wave and to keep it moving with user generated content
    4. focus on cool melee fights with maps following suit

    people love to create things and if you make it easier for them more people will come
    bigger population = bigger competitive scene

    also a very slight increase to feint time might be cool too both for offense and defense

    tldr create a shift towards smart positioning and test reduction of parry lockout by a small amount to buff feint to neutral, also buff user generated content



  • @Dr:

    Personally I would like to see something rather than CFTP replace panic parry. I would like people to throw some ideas around rather than just get stuck in an argument about whether to bring back CFTP or not.

    If CFTP does get brought back I definitely think there should be higher stam cost and no riposte. Otherwise it just pushes high level play into the place it was previously in CMW: the good players in pubs are almost always running, kiting, constantly comboing and CFTP whenever they make a mistake.

    I think it is important to remember that CFTP was unintended and people didn’t really know about it until months after release, and even then it wasn’t widely known unless you were in a clan or on the forums. The first I heard about it was a video I saw here that showed the “quick parry” but didn’t show how to do it because they thought it was a glitch that needed to be fixed.

    Pretty much this. Does no one have any other idea’s for a replacement for panic parry? There’s absolutely no reason we cant think of other mechanics instead of being stuck in the same old CFTP argument. Offering the devs an alternate method will almost definitely be more appealing to them than re adding an originally unintended one from CMW.

    Also, the idea that unless -insert mechanic- is going to make or break competitive is ridiculous. What competitive needs are actual sponsored events and a thriving population, which means more things like user based content and things such as replays, fully functioning spectator modes and a few more things. Nothing too difficult to implement, but still need to be there to help promote the competitive side of the game.



  • Well what exactly is the reason to have a CFTP or similar mechanic? Why do we need it? Is feint to parry enough?

    How about a holdable parry that had the following drawbacks if you hold the parry down rather than tap and time it like normal?

    Rapidly starts to drain stamina (way faster than holding up a shield block)
    No riposte
    Reduces turn speed

    This is more of an answer to feints really than an answer to CFTP but then we could have the increased feint window as suggested in the OP. Possibly it could also apply if you have tapped normal parry and then tap it again.



  • Without combo parry, there’s just no downside to comboing constantly, because you are just as vulnerable as if you were to attack -> neutral, or ironically LESS vulnerable if CFTP is readded. I can’t possibly thinking of anyone as “competitive” if their idea of good mechanics is to promote constant attack as #1 safest play.

    Either combo parry needs to come back (hopefully in a simpler form that doesn’t take too much stamina) or recovery times need to drop dramatically on nearly all weapons in the game.


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