Opinions on gameplay as of now.



  • So a few weeks into beta. I think i have a general idea of how things are going to work out in this game now. There is a lot to like I think, but a few things that still irk me too. I’ve come up with a short list, just to let the team know how I feel so far and add my input to their testing data.

    So…

    Knight.
    +) Feels like it should.
    The knight is the powerhouse on the team and it feels like it, so good work there. The knight’s power weapons are fun to use and work well. Being able to shrug off damage that would kill another class is badass. In team games, being a wall for teammates is useful and fun. Again, it just feels badass to hold down a contended area all by yourself using bashes and long reaching 2H weapons.

    -) Boring special.
    I don’t like that the Knight’s special ability is passive(Takes more damage). The general theme of this game is heavier guy=more health/less speed, so I don’t see why this should be considered ‘special’ in the case of the Knight who is just heaviest guy=most health/least speed. The MaA has dodging, and the Vanguard plays differently altogether. I wish the Knight had his own special fight mechanic too.

    Vanguard.
    +) Unique play style.
    I was surprised as to how much fun Vanguards are. They not only have to be approached differently, but they have to be played differently. Having less armor than the Knight, but more damage and reach really changes things around. It feels unique, as it should.

    -) Not useful in team games.
    Playing a vanguard doesn’t feel like it contributes to a team as much. A knight is a tougher defender, an archer has more range, and a MaA is faster. I guess there isn’t a lot that can be done about that, but if I were to suggest something, I would say give vanguard some more third weapons to choose from that offer supporting effects. Now that smoke works, it is a lot of fun to throw smoke clouds to defend key areas from archer’s sight. Maybe some things like that that benefit someone other than the Vanguard using them.

    Man at Arms.
    +) Intense fights.
    Fighting with the Man at Arms is intense overall. Dodging fatal blows. Slipping through the lines. Parry, feint, dash forward, spin around to the back and stab. It just feels so cool. Knowing that one well aimed shot can end you makes those victories feel so much more awesome. Very good work on that.

    -) Uninteresting weapons.
    The only weapons unique to the Man at Arms is his third weapons (Heater and Flame Pot). Every weapon the MaA uses is also used by someone else. I wish the MaA had some more weapons only he could use so he could distinguish himself on the battlefield a little more.

    Archer.
    +) Fits in well.
    I thought the archer would stand out as useless in a game that rewards melee. Surprisingly, this is not true. Archery takes a lot of practice and skill, and it feels worthwhile to pluck away at your bow trying to bring down the tougher fighting classes. Seeing as fights are more skill based, a good archer can still hold his own in melee, making him more formidable overall. As the physically weakest of the four, I kind of like that he still is as tough as anyone else.

    -) Difficult.
    It’s easy to play the other three classes. It stands out as awkward to me that the archer is the only one not beginner friendly. Some of the mechanics around archery feel clunky and slow, like being unable to switch weapons after firing an arrow, arrows moving slowly through the air, or not being able to kick crowding enemies. My only wish for the archer is that getting the hang of him was a bit easier. Not that i’m asking for the archer to be made easier or more powerful, but understanding what makes a good archer tick is hard to someone who doesn’t get it.

    But that’s just my thoughts. Let me know what you think.



  • I wish the Knight had his own special fight mechanic too.

    The Knight used to have reduced knockback, not sure what happened with that though. I thought it was pretty neat personally, if you’re not the actively dodging type, you could get up close with the Knight close range weapons and stay close.



  • Pretty much agreed on all points. And I just want to reiterate, knights need a proper special ability.



  • agreed. i’m sure a bunch of people will argue your take on archers. i always giggle when people think they are the easiest class to play



  • @Cias:

    agreed. i’m sure a bunch of people will argue your take on archers. i always giggle when people think they are the easiest class to play

    Archer skill scaling is extremely skewed IMO. ;)

    It’s a lot harder to just pick up a bow and get a kill against an equally inexperienced player than it is with a melee weapon. At the same time, though, I feel like you only ever improve at one aspect of the game when playing archer - hitting the guy you want to hit.

    Sure, you can learn how to hit someone’s feet when they have a shield up, or how to anticipate a dodge or read someone’s movement patterns. But it’s all just making your arrow hit the other person. It’s very one dimensional - there’s nothing the other guy can actively do to you, except try to weave around as close to random as possible, or put up your shield and hope they don’t have good enough aim to hit your feet. Honestly hitting someone’s feet with a shield up is almost easier than hitting someone not using a shield, unless they’re using a tower shield - it’s a smaller target of course, but they can only move forward (+slow strafe to the side maybe) and much slower than without. And again, you aren’t actively combating the archer, you’re just passively protecting yourself and hoping he’s bad.

    Meanwhile in a melee you have to learn to play from both sides - you need to know how to defend yourself and how to go on the offensive and land a blow, not to mention knowing how to fight with objectives on the line and how to fight with your team (archers at best have to learn to avoid hitting their teammates, and again it’s all just tied to aim). Melee is also a matter of degree - sometimes you want to play overly defensive, sometimes you want to go all out offense, and other times you need to find a healthy balance; and knowing when to do what is absolutely key.

    Basically I feel like nobody is anywhere near the apex of skill in melee combat yet, which is as it should be for a skill based game in beta, but I’ve already seen archers who can hit your feet through a kite shield (tower shields are tricky but I know it can be done) very consistently and hit from a distance no matter how erratic your movement is. I don’t honestly see how an archer can be much better than that - you can always make slight progress on aiming, especially on landing long range shots, but the rewards for these further advances are very small. It just feels as if archery is harder to pick up, but much easier to “master” (I.E. approach the point where your efficiency barely increases with more playtime).

    And, again - it’s completely onesided. This feels horrible for the person dying because they feel as if there was nothing they could’ve done not to die, while not feeling any better for the person getting the kill; I’d say it’s even less satisfying than getting a kill you had to fight for, but maybe that’s just me. A lot of people seem to want to play medieval sniper.

    I just wish archery felt more complex or deeper - or at least like honing your aim to be more and more accurate mattered beyond a certain point (I’ve been a proponent of reducing base projectile damage and increasing headshot damage on projectiles since alpha), so that archery didn’t feel so much more capped out on skill differential than melee. I’m a Chivalry fanboy here, but I have to call Torn Banner on this one thing - they’ve said before melee feels bad in other games because it’s tacked on just to have melee. Well, archery in Chivalry feels tacked on just to have archery. Archery in Chivalry is barely a step up from AoC, while melee has progressed insanely far. I think that more than anything is what disappoints me about Chivalry’s ranged combat.

    Also, on Knights. I agree their special is boring and sortof feels like it’s not a special at all. I feel the same way about the archer special, but it’s at least sometimes useful as a javelineer - I believe a heavy javelin stab to the head from behind kills an archer or man-at-arms in one hit. Personally I’d like to see the Knight get an enhanced shove attack - he’s obviously the most physically powerful combatant and all that armor would add a lot of force to a kick if he put his weight into it, not to mention his shields are massive. I was thinking that if the knight were using a shield, his shield bash also gives him a quick forward boost, like a MaA dodge but a bit shorter and much more costly, putting you in range to hit your stunned enemy - and if he were using a twohander his kick stuns longer than a standard kick to give you more time to start your slow attack, or create distance. Both abilities would also work marvelously with a teammate, and still fit the “tank” theme, in that tanks plow over everything.



  • I agree completely with what SlyGoat says about Archers- they really do feel one sided and shallow. The problem is, I am at a complete loss as to what could be done to make them fit in more with the other classes; their class of ranged weapons really is completely different from anything other classes have. The only change I could think of would be to make throwable weapons a bit easier to hit with, and longer range. If the throwing knives had a faster speed, they would be really useful for a keeping an archer at bay until you can close the distance. There is also a bug with the shield, where it seems I can hit someone through it as soon as they begin to lower it.
    All that said, I have a huge amount of fun with them because they are unique and difficult. I love that it is really usable at close ranges, pretty much a lower health, non-dodging MAA. Considering that the Archer really is completely different from other classes, weapon change times need to be altered. Also, I think that being able to shoot a half-cocked bow would add a lot of depth to it’s use.



  • All projectiles should actually be doing 1.5x damage to the head right now as what you described was exactly what I wanted to capture when I set that up originally, as opposed to the 1.25x in melee - which I think is a mistake, considering how easy it is to hit the head this time around with head and neck being merged and being a bit larger and balancing will effectively have to revolve around taking that HS modifier into account such as the cudgel 3 hitting knights almost every time (one case among many), but that’s for another day. The legs modifier was supposed to be harsh (0.6 for projectile, 0.8 for melee I believe) and Arms used to take reduced damage from projectiles too, but I can’t seem to get reduced damage when hitting Arms anymore, it might have been set the same at the Torso.



  • @SlyGoat:

    @Cias:

    agreed. i’m sure a bunch of people will argue your take on archers. i always giggle when people think they are the easiest class to play

    Archer skill scaling is extremely skewed IMO. ;)

    It’s a lot harder to just pick up a bow and get a kill against an equally inexperienced player than it is with a melee weapon. At the same time, though, I feel like you only ever improve at one aspect of the game when playing archer - hitting the guy you want to hit.

    Sure, you can learn how to hit someone’s feet when they have a shield up, or how to anticipate a dodge or read someone’s movement patterns. But it’s all just making your arrow hit the other person. It’s very one dimensional - there’s nothing the other guy can actively do to you, except try to weave around as close to random as possible, or put up your shield and hope they don’t have good enough aim to hit your feet. Honestly hitting someone’s feet with a shield up is almost easier than hitting someone not using a shield, unless they’re using a tower shield - it’s a smaller target of course, but they can only move forward (+slow strafe to the side maybe) and much slower than without. And again, you aren’t actively combating the archer, you’re just passively protecting yourself and hoping he’s bad.

    Meanwhile in a melee you have to learn to play from both sides - you need to know how to defend yourself and how to go on the offensive and land a blow, not to mention knowing how to fight with objectives on the line and how to fight with your team (archers at best have to learn to avoid hitting their teammates, and again it’s all just tied to aim). Melee is also a matter of degree - sometimes you want to play overly defensive, sometimes you want to go all out offense, and other times you need to find a healthy balance; and knowing when to do what is absolutely key.

    Basically I feel like nobody is anywhere near the apex of skill in melee combat yet, which is as it should be for a skill based game in beta, but I’ve already seen archers who can hit your feet through a kite shield (tower shields are tricky but I know it can be done) very consistently and hit from a distance no matter how erratic your movement is. I don’t honestly see how an archer can be much better than that - you can always make slight progress on aiming, especially on landing long range shots, but the rewards for these further advances are very small. It just feels as if archery is harder to pick up, but much easier to “master” (I.E. approach the point where your efficiency barely increases with more playtime).

    And, again - it’s completely onesided. This feels horrible for the person dying because they feel as if there was nothing they could’ve done not to die, while not feeling any better for the person getting the kill; I’d say it’s even less satisfying than getting a kill you had to fight for, but maybe that’s just me. A lot of people seem to want to play medieval sniper.

    I just wish archery felt more complex or deeper - or at least like honing your aim to be more and more accurate mattered beyond a certain point (I’ve been a proponent of reducing base projectile damage and increasing headshot damage on projectiles since alpha), so that archery didn’t feel so much more capped out on skill differential than melee. I’m a Chivalry fanboy here, but I have to call Torn Banner on this one thing - they’ve said before melee feels bad in other games because it’s tacked on just to have melee. Well, archery in Chivalry feels tacked on just to have archery. Archery in Chivalry is barely a step up from AoC, while melee has progressed insanely far. I think that more than anything is what disappoints me about Chivalry’s ranged combat.

    Also, on Knights. I agree their special is boring and sortof feels like it’s not a special at all. I feel the same way about the archer special, but it’s at least sometimes useful as a javelineer - I believe a heavy javelin stab to the head from behind kills an archer or man-at-arms in one hit. Personally I’d like to see the Knight get an enhanced shove attack - he’s obviously the most physically powerful combatant and all that armor would add a lot of force to a kick if he put his weight into it, not to mention his shields are massive. I was thinking that if the knight were using a shield, his shield bash also gives him a quick forward boost, like a MaA dodge but a bit shorter and much more costly, putting you in range to hit your stunned enemy - and if he were using a twohander his kick stuns longer than a standard kick to give you more time to start your slow attack, or create distance. Both abilities would also work marvelously with a teammate, and still fit the “tank” theme, in that tanks plow over everything.

    i honestly couldnt disagree more. not only must archers master their accuracy, getting around shields and such, but they also need to use a 1h weapon once a melee gets in range. aiming with a bow isn’t exactly easy, projectile drop is severe and people don’t just stand still. it’s not like a fps like call of duty, the projectile doesn’t hit near instantly. archers also counter themselves pretty easily, i almost always try to take out enemy archers first. now that the broadhead is actually working, that job is fairly easy.

    speaking of broadheads, i think they are bugged. they seem to go through shields a lot since the patch, 10 minutes ago i killed a knight with his tower shield up, i didn’t miss the shield either, it just went through it. have experienced that a few times with other shields as well.


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