Change recovery and windup time?



  • Would it be a good idea to take time from the recovery and add it to the windup time, so that the duration of the attack stays the same?

    Imagine following values:
    Windup 0.3s
    Release 0.4s
    Recovery 0.4s

    And we change that to:
    Windup 0.5s (+0.2s)
    Release 0.4s
    Recovery 0.2s (-0.2s)

    My idea is to minimize hittrades and compensate for no panic parry/cftp.

    Is this dumb? Why?



  • Does that not make sense?
    Decrease all weapon recovery times by let’s say 50% and add that value onto it’s windup:
    -> generally the same fast paced combat
    -> less punishment for misses (which happen really often now)
    -> more punishment for attacking when not in the advantage (spamming attacks)
    -> better 1vsGroup fighting which was relying on cftp
    -> less hittrades (flinch or feint-to-parry)
    -> maybe stronger feints
    -> ?
    -> profit



  • Don’t know about all these numbers, but if it raises the skill-ceiling it’s probably a no-go for tbs



  • First, your change actually decreases the speed of the attack. Second, reducing recovery would increase hit trades, as there are only two situations where your attack is 100% safe: First is when you attack your enemy while he is not aware of you, and second is when you attack during an enemy’s recovery. Hit trades exist in DW due to over-aggresion. Once players adapt to the new weapon ranges and speed, I suspect hit trades will drop off.



  • I think they may need to adjust some weapons to make them flinchable a little after even it’s windup is done, call it a delay windup if you will.



  • Misses should be punished, feints are hard to read in DW, maybe longer windups could do the trick



  • @DrDiamond6:

    First, your change actually decreases the speed of the attack.

    Yeah you’re right.

    @DrDiamond6:

    Second, reducing recovery would increase hit trades, as there are only two situations where your attack is 100% safe: First is when you attack your enemy while he is not aware of you, and second is when you attack during an enemy’s recovery.

    That is not correct.

    You can attack safely in these situations:
    1. Enemy is not aware of you.
    2. Enemy missed his attack and is in recovery.
    3. You have the faster weapon (windup) and enemy is idle in the moment you start your attack.
    4. You parried his attack and start a riposte.
    5. You hit an attack (enemy flinches) and start a combo.

    Now to:
    1. Is obviously working in CMW and CDW. My suggestion wouldn’t change this.
    2. Parry in recovery (aka panic parry) in CMW let’s you bypass this. In CDW you can punish misses right now, with my suggestion you still could but it would be harder. Still better than CMW though.
    3. Works in both games, my suggestion would not change this but the one with the slower windup has more time to feint-to-parry when he sees that he started his attack too late.
    4. Works in both games, my suggestion doesn’t change that.
    5. Works in CMW, maybe the Holy Water Sprinkler can stop a delayed combo but not much else. In CDW my combos are often interrupted by the enemy, my suggestion would heavily improve this.



  • this + cftp = good



  • sounds like a good idea.



  • It would be really cool if you say something regarding the hittrading SlyGoat. It’s really, really annoying and downgrades the quality of combat a lot. It is not safe to combo anymore after a hit because people give two damns about parrying and start an attack. I don’t believe this is intended by you guys.



  • It’ll make it easier to parry. Your changes might be a bit extreme though.



  • flinch mechanic just needs fix… fix this and less hit trades.

    it’s broken in both mw and dw. In dw it’s worse a bit because not only do you still get flinched in release, but you can be combo-ing someone with a 1 handed weapon, and while they are getting hit the 2nd time they can just swing at you…

    so flinch is, and always has been so broken.



  • Smart idea. I know I personally kite an opponent into missing in order to get a free hit. I do also have to agree that hit trading is stupid. I see it more and more in this game, primarily against Samurai.

    I would also add in that weapons need to finally drain stamina even on successful hits. I do not understand this mentality of Tornbanners to reward a LMB hero. You as the defender protecting against hit trading spammers run out of stamina warding off hits… it makes no logical sense? Both blocking and hitting irregardless need to take stamina. Right now its just a thing to encourage LMB so long as you’re connecting (even if blocked).



  • I’d rather hit trades being more prominent than feinting being OP like in C:MW.



  • @fvonb:

    @DrDiamond6:

    First, your change actually decreases the speed of the attack.

    Yeah you’re right.

    @DrDiamond6:

    Second, reducing recovery would increase hit trades, as there are only two situations where your attack is 100% safe: First is when you attack your enemy while he is not aware of you, and second is when you attack during an enemy’s recovery.

    That is not correct.

    You can attack safely in these situations:
    1. Enemy is not aware of you.
    2. Enemy missed his attack and is in recovery.
    3. You have the faster weapon (windup) and enemy is idle in the moment you start your attack.
    4. You parried his attack and start a riposte.
    5. You hit an attack (enemy flinches) and start a combo.

    Now to:
    1. Is obviously working in CMW and CDW. My suggestion wouldn’t change this.
    2. Parry in recovery (aka panic parry) in CMW let’s you bypass this. In CDW you can punish misses right now, with my suggestion you still could but it would be harder. Still better than CMW though.
    3. Works in both games, my suggestion would not change this but the one with the slower windup has more time to feint-to-parry when he sees that he started his attack too late.
    4. Works in both games, my suggestion doesn’t change that.
    5. Works in CMW, maybe the Holy Water Sprinkler can stop a delayed combo but not much else. In CDW my combos are often interrupted by the enemy, my suggestion would heavily improve this.

    Perhaps I should have made it clear that I was referring to a neutral position, before any attacks have been made. In regards to 3, assuming the enemy is aware of you, he can counter-attack by moving away from your strike and winding up an attack, setting up the hit trade. You see this in CMW with knights using a ducking lookdown overhead on counterattack. In DW, this won’t be as effective due to the damage tracers, but by no means is your attack safe, unless you are at facehug range. Then you are safe. 4 is not an attack; it is a counter attack. Technical detail, maybe, yet a distinction that must be made. 5 is also a continuation of the initial attack, which while safe, implies we’ve gotten a hit in.

    But back to your idea that this will reduce hit trades: it will not. Longer attacks increase the chance for hit trades: You can see it in the current build of CMW, with many high level knights, using very slow weapons, abuse drags to hide their windup animations while baiting a quick attack, thus setting up the hit trade. Most hit trades occur due to two players attacking and hitting at close to (but not quite) the same time. The ability to parry from the windup of an attack (like cftp allowed) helps people react to this situation–which bypassed the recovery anyway, removing it from the equation. Assuming that cftp is off the table, there are two realistic options to reduce hit trades. The first is to reduce release time: the less time a weapon is active, the less room for error there is, and the closer two attacks need to be for a hit trade to occur. The second option is to have all hits flinch at any stage of an attack–an option that gives faster weapons a huge advantage once they are in range, but could easily be balanced with a range decrease and/or a damage decrease.

    The problem with reduced release time, however, is that the parry timings become smaller, and coupled with lag, it could make attacks practically unblockable.



  • @DrDiamond6:

    5. You hit an attack (enemy flinches) and start a combo.

    5. Works in CMW, maybe the Holy Water Sprinkler can stop a delayed combo but not much else. In CDW my combos are often interrupted by the enemy, my suggestion would heavily improve this.

    5 is also a continuation of the initial attack, which while safe, implies we’ve gotten a hit in.

    There is my first problem, 5 is not safe in DW.

    @DrDiamond6:

    But back to your idea that this will reduce hit trades: it will not. Longer attacks increase the chance for hit trades: You can see it in the current build of CMW […] Most hit trades occur due to two players attacking and hitting at close to (but not quite) the same time. The ability to parry from the windup of an attack (like cftp allowed) helps people react to this situation–which bypassed the recovery anyway, removing it from the equation.

    I don’t get your point here at all.

    Two important details you should keep in mind. First, we talk about longer windups, the timeframe in which attacks can be interrupted by doing a mistake (getting flinched) or by choice (feint & feint-to-parry). Second, my suggestion would raise windups on all attacks/weapons more or less equally by 0.1-0.3 seconds.

    So this does not increase the chance for hittrades, I still claim that the opposite is the case:

    • If the two attacks were started at near the same time coincidentally, longer windups give both players more time to choose to feint-to-parry (which is possible in CDW/CMW and has nothing to do with combo-feint-to-parry).

    • If player A attacks when he isn’t in the advantage, i.e. he wants to sneak an attack in while player B is already in late windup, release or in combo he will nearly have no chance to do so because his windup is longer than the 0.1-0.4 second windups we have now in DW (estimated values). Unless A has an extreme fast weapon and B has an extreme slow weapon, A will be flinched, punished by losing hp and his attack aborted.

    So that is the theory. Now I could just go and make 2 videos, one from a round of FFA in CDW which shows exactly twenty 1vs1 fights and one from a round of FFA in CMW which also shows exactly twenty 1vs1 fights. And then I add a hittrade counter to both of them. CMW’s counter will most probably not be higher than 3, while CDW’s counter will be most definitely higher than 10.

    Sorry if you are right and I don’t make sense, but I am tired. I re-read this tomorrow :D



  • Good idea! Right now, hit trades are the main problem of this game. It just makes it so dumbed-down when everyone is running in a zig-zag spamming lmb.



  • There is no need for the video: CMW has already altered the numbers we are talking about a multitude of times. Hit trades are still present. cftp was the biggest deterrent to players going for hit trades before. Plus, as I already mentioned, a fair amout of hit trades in DW are due to players spamming attacks. That is player error which can not justly be blamed on the mechanics. Reducing recovery will have a minimal impact on hit trades, as recovery doesn’t happen on hit trades. Increasing windup across the board initially appears to help, but all it does is slow down combat (as seen in ‘that one patch’). The issue arrises with the time it takes for an attack to hit. Once the weapon hits release, it still must travel some distance to hit an enemy. Being the first to hit release doesn’t guarantee a flich, as the enemy will likely complete his windup before you hit, unless you are at facehug range for stabs/overhead, or use swing acceleration on a slash. The new draw tracers make these tactics less rewarding by reducing the damage caused by such attacks. Thus, logically, assuming equal speed on the weapons, the best way to reduce hit trades without drastically altering the mechanics is to reduce the time it takes for an attack to hit an opponent once it is active–that is, by reducing the release time. The flaw with this action, however, is that the timing window for parries becomes increasingly smaller, which runs the risk of making fast attacks unlockable. Incidentally, with the release of the SDK, it should be possible to put both ideas to a practical test.

    In regards to 5 above, I think you mean that missing with the first swing and then combing to attack is not safe. I have noticed this as well, although I think that, if you manage to make your enemy parry, you will still have a safe attack.



  • Right now it’s Chivalry: Hit Trade Warfare.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    Right now it’s Chivalry: Hit Trade Warfare.

    i feel like if i said this, no one would understand. I didn’t think it was so either until i played maa today. It may be because you’re maa, but i don’t think so… i experienced it MORE with maa, but def with knight. Most newbies are just clicking left click the whole time, and if you are a 1 strike at a time kind of guy and you flinch hit them, they can hit trade on the next one because their flinch recovery is shorter than your attack recovery… dumb. Even if you hit with maul you lost initiative if you don’t combo… so must parry.

    queue lemon counter argument HERE VV


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