Thoughts on Current Balance



  • I wanted to make this thread to discuss the current state of balance in chivalry. Let me preface this by saying that Chivalry is probably my favorite multiplayer game of all time. In terms of melee combat, I don’t believe that any other game has managed to create such a fluid and visceral experience. I have over 1000 hours of playtime, and I would hate to see Chivalry wither away. And so, I think it is vitally important that we discuss balance and encourage TB to continue to support Chivalry: Medieval Warfare in this respect. On this note, I actually think Chivalry is decently balanced at the moment, and that there remain only a few changes necessary.

    Most importantly, I want this thread to serve as a place for meaningful and civil discussion, so please conduct yourselves accordingly. It is also important that we discuss balance on a holistic level, and not let our preference in class bias this discussion. Another note, let’s please keep discussion about core game mechanics (i.e. bubble, feinting, dragging) out of this. TB has made their stance very clear on these issues, and I feel it would be more productive if we focus solely on weapon/class balance.

    Below are my thoughts on needed balance changes. I’d love to hear everyone else’s opinions below as well. The ultimate goal is to highlight the more egregious issues of balance, and hopefully, TB will remedy some of them.

    High Priority:

    1. Bows/Xbows: Let’s face it, archers are overpowered and I say this as someone who has mained archer in the past. Simply put, for how easy it is to hit targets, bows/xbows do entirely too much damage. I am not saying that archery doesnt take skill in this game, but after an initial learning period, it is almost trivially easy to hit people.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. Reduce Ammo Capacity: Basically, reduce warbow ammo capacity to 12, longbow to 15, and shortbow to 20. I think this would encourage archers to play more conservatively, and aim more carefully. Given the current ammo box timings, I think this would substantially weaken archers without taking away their ability to dominate a battlefield if skilled.

    B. Take away crosshairs: This would make it significantly harder to hit targets until archers reached a higher skill level.

    C. Reduce damage or projectile speed: This one is simple. Just reduce arrow damage or speed.

    2. Greatsword: Many who argue that the greatsword is balanced like to point out that it is the only weapon that hasn’t been changed since release. However, as the meta-game has shifted so radically, the greatsword has become overpowered. Most weapons in Chivalry are balanced very simply by having strength in 2 out of the 3 attributes (Reach, Damage, Speed). The greatsword is too good in all of these areas: it has no inherent weakness. It needs a slight nerf in my opinion, perhaps in combo times and damage.

    3. MAA: As it stands, once a MAA reaches a certain level of skill, 1v1s and to some extent, fights against multiple opponents, are easier than they should be.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. Take away parry in recovery for MAA: This is really my only idea for how to nerf MAA without completely overhauling their mechanics. I think this would be fair as dodge is already an extremely powerful ability, and the fact that MAA can also perform parry in recovery gives them too many ways to escape their mistakes.

    B. Firepots: For something that is essentially a guaranteed hit (even rank 0 MAA’s dont miss firepots), they do a bit too much damage.

    3. Brandistock: I dislike the idea that every weapon has to be balanced so that they can serve all purposes. Pre-patch Brandistock was still a formidable weapon. It excelled in assisting and supporting during team fights. With the buffs to the slash and quick stab, the Brandistock has become far too powerful.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. The ridiculous LMB needs to be brought back into line as it is far too fast, and animates poorly. Damage may also need to be toned down if the timings are to remain the same for the stab attacks.

    Medium Priority:

    1. Broadsword/Norse Sword: I don’t play MAA enough to know whether these two weapons are used so much because the other MAA primaries suck or if norse/broad are just too strong.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. Stab Range: I will say that I think the stab range on these weapons are ridiculous and poorly animated. I think if this were to be changed, both Broad and Norse would be pretty well balanced, and might only require small nerfs (maybe, fixing the stab might actually balance them nicely) to bring them into line.

    B. Nerf Broad/Norse more strongly, Buff other options

    2. Claymore/Bearded Axe: Neither of these weapons are actually overpowered. They actually come out somewhat underpowered. However, this does not change the undeniable fact that they are broken. They are neither fun to use or to fight against, and should be rebalanced such that they do not depend on such speed to be viable. This is especially important in a game like Chivalry, where fights can literally be determined by tenths of seconds.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. Rebalance them so that they do not have such ridiculous levels of acceleration/speed.

    3. Shortsword: The shortsword has always been borderline OP, and even with the buffs to the Saber, it is still basically the preferred archer secondary.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. It could stand very minor nerfs. Perhaps to combo times and recovery.

    Low Priority:

    1. Messer: Perhaps a function of the nerfs to the other Bastard Swords, I find the messer slightly too strong given its three attributes.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. Damage nerf and perhaps a small speed nerf.

    2. Polehammer/Maul: My sole issue with these weapons is that they are too easy to force hit trades using lookdowns. Given how much damage they do, a smart user of either can basically just play the hit-trade game and come out on top most of the time.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. Damage nerfs.

    3. Vanguard Charge: Besides the most inconsistent animation/range in all of Chivalry, the Vanguard charge not only takes away near half of the defender’s stamina, it also grants the user free initiative. I will also mention that Vanguards can parry almost immediately after charging and are not left nearly as vulnerable as they should be.

    Possible Solutions:

    A. Fix the animation

    B. Make vanguards more vulnerable during use

    4. HWS: The stab is pretty silly.

    Feel free to disagree with me or post your own ideas, but I feel there should be more discussion about balance.



  • Shit. I thought I’d be typing a lot but I agree with pretty much every thing here. Interesting nerf to the maa’s too. I never thought of that. The only thing I’d like to add to nerfing maa’s would either be to bring back cftp (which doesn’t need to be reiterated) or just plain remove dodge.



  • @SHH_:

    1. Bows/Xbows:

    I would like to roll with B. Played without HUD lately and liked it. You don’t need a crosshair to hit something as Archer. C should be avoided as it would shift Chivalry towards the generic fantasy balance away from realism. Here some minor (!) spread to the projectiles would also help. I am speaking of the amount that still makes it possible to reliable shoot heads on close to mid range but makes it harder to hit targets in cover especially if they are also far away. Increasing the Crossbow reload time is another option - I feel they should be easy to use and powerful but more like sniping weapons (meaning they should have less spread than other ranged weapons) but inferior at closer distances and DPS-wise.

    @SHH_:

    2. Greatsword

    This one is probably in the spot the Longsword was before “the patch”. A minor nerf to damage might do the job. I would actually like to see most swords faster than they are now (see below).

    @SHH_:

    3. MAA

    I don’t like your solutions that much. A is a good idea but only if applied to all classes (maybe partial - see CFtP/panic parry discussion) and thus fails in nerfing the MaA. Fixing the dodge to be less of a teleport and more of a short speed boost might help as would decreasing its “reach” (the distance dodged). Also - I might be mistaken here - MaA are faster than any other class when moving back or strafing. Bringing this down to Archer speed might be a good idea. As for firepots: Yes they are annoying and easy to hit but they really don’t deal that much damage (the vision penalty caused by the flames is worse to me). Maybe they should be harder to handle by having to light them first (greatly increasing “windup time”) and being unable to sprint or dodge by doing so.

    @SHH_:

    3. Brandistock

    I agree here. The Brandistock should be a powerful support weapon but not that good in 1on1 (even more so than the Spear). Slash needs an increase in both windup and recovery time (its a heavy and long stick after all) and the stab should be either slower or less damaging (right now its flat out better than the Spears stab). I also believe the Brandistock did benefit from the introduction of panic parry so 3.A would also help here.

    @SHH_:

    1. Broadsword/Norse Sword: I don’t play MAA enough to know whether these two weapons are used so much because the other MAA primaries suck or if norse/broad are just too strong.

    The Broadsword is probably the same as the Greatsword mentioned above - just a tiny bit too powerful in its “jack of all trades” state. The Norse is actually okay for me. Its strong when used in its dedicated niche (dueling) but weak elsewhere. I still agree with A - but for almost all weapons (or at least swords): Right now touching your enemy with the tip at maximum reach (barely scratching his armor if it was real life) does full damage as if you impaled his torso. Shortening the hitbox (also for strikes) would both nerf the weapons and fix the “finger poke of doom” stabs.

    @SHH_:

    2. Claymore/Bearded Axe

    Actually I love their speed. Especially the Bearded Axe feels like a real weapon with real strikes. Its attacks look less choreographed but really realistic. I would love to have other weapons sped up to look similar. Especially the swords - most of them (with the exception of Claymore, Norse Sword and Shortsword) look like the user is deliberately slowing them down when they should be very fast weapons. The Claymore does relect this. However, its speed feels odd because it is supposed to be very heavy (~2-2.5kg) thus slower and powerful than the Longsword (~1.5kg). But its neither. So my suggestion is: Speed up (release, combo and recovery) most swords but cut down their damage. Speed up the axes release but keep the Bearded Axe. Yes this would probably increase the games skillcap - but thats not bad.

    @SHH_:

    3. Shortsword

    As written above I don’t like a speed nerf. I wouldn’t nerf the Shortsword at all but instead buff the other choices. The Saber got its love and has a niche to compete. Same for the Thrusting Dagger. This leaves the Hunting Knife (very minor damage buff?), the Broad Dagger (minor damage buff?) and the Cudgel (speed buff?). I believe bringing their viability up would benefit the game more.

    @SHH_:

    1. Messer

    I think the Messer could need some nerfs to stab (almost as powerful as the Longswords) and slash (stronger than the overhead!) damage. No speed nerf please its already slow as hell.

    @SHH_:

    2. Polehammer/Maul

    I don’t like your suggestion here because both weapons are supposed to hit like a truck. Maybe the (partial) removal of panic parry would do the job as it gives them a long recovery phase after each strike making the user very vulnerable if very close. Otherwise increasing the windup and combo times (probably decreasing the release time to compensate for non-lookdowns and make them look less choreographed) might do the job.

    @SHH_:

    3. Vanguard Charge

    I agree. The animation looks strange and you should be able to cancel out a charge if hitting the Vanguard during the “windup” phase (just like regular attacks) and when the “jump” is blocked. No more Vanguards running up to you, facehugging then sliding up your bubble and then htting you with all of their might. Also remove the air control - Vanguards charging around obstacles is simply stupid.

    @SHH_:

    4. HWS

    Just increase the windup/recovery time - its a blunt weapon after all (center of weight far away from your hand). Of course increased recovery time only makes sense if panic parry get (partially) removed.

    Things not mentioned:

    • Shields: decrease stamina cost for blocking and change the block hitbox to match their visual size
    • Bubble (yes - it is a stamina issue - just play with a short weapon): remove or at least decrease size significantly
    • Warbow Bodkin (too much damage on leg hits): decrease its damage to 95 (same hits to kill if you don’t hit the legs)
    • Shortbow (right now there is no reason to pick it over Longbow/Sling): decrease draw time and reload slightly
    • F(l)ails: decrease windup and combo times and get rid of the fuzzy hitbox - instead restrict the parryable area to the metal ball (making it tiny), and buff the Buckler (see above), fix the shieldbash hitbox (it doesnt fit the visual model)


  • To Evil:

    1. My problem with Bearded/Claymore speed is more a function of the fact that everyone has latency, and animation desyncs are still present. While I realize that weapons can indeed approach those speeds, given how poorly the game handles them, I think it would be more prudent for them to be balanced differently.

    2. MAA: Like I said, MAAs are a tricky balance problem. We probably need a lot of ideas. Also, I want the parry recovery to be taken from MAAs because they have too many outs. I suppose making dodge less teleporty, and more punishable might accomplish the same idea, but would probably be harder to implement.

    3. 1h Stabs: I’ve found that 1h stabs are worse simply because the animation is poor. 2h stabs, while they probably shouldn’t do full damage at the tip, are at least animated properly for the most part.

    4. Shortsword: Combo nerf wouldn’t hit the speed too badly, it is already extremely fast.

    5. Messer: Again, combo time increase wouldn’t greatly affect the speed. Given its damage, it is pretty fast as it stands. That being said, I do think damage nerfs are the better route, at least in this case given the messers HTK.

    6. Polehammer/Maul: I dislike their damage basically because knights were nerfed hard enough as it is. I dislike that any weapon can 1 shot a knight, and with the polehammer, lookdowns are far too effective.



  • @SHH_:

    1. My problem with Bearded/Claymore speed is more a function of the fact that everyone has latency, and animation desyncs are still present. While I realize that weapons can indeed approach those speeds, given how poorly the game handles them, I think it would be more prudent for them to be balanced differently.

    This. Desyncs with the claymore and bearded are more common than any other primary weapon (from my experiences), and in a game that relies on decisions being made in milliseconds, latency can cause all manner of issues when the weapons have such high speeds and animation issues. Even a slight speed decrease of a few percent could make all the difference without tarnishing the rapid acceleration and velocity of the weapons, limiting the effect of latency to some degree.

    In regards to the MAA, what about a reduction in sprint speed/acceleration? This could effect the range of the weapons in how they’re used by MAA’s (backdodge to sprint-stab), reducing the pokey behaviour and encouraging more thoughtful attack and defense by MAA’s across the board. Kind of a 2 birds-1 stone solution (re-balance MAA/reduce the stab effectiveness of norse/broad). Just a thought though, I’m not too big on MAA so I don’t really know exactly what kind of effect this would have.

    Would like a very slight buff to LS/SoW either in the speed or damage department, at the moment they’re just too weak to be effective in most game modes, especially in comparison to the messer or greatsword.

    Also, I agree with the HWS being a little over the top. From memory it’s banned on the CG ladder down here in AU/NZ, could use a bit of a touch up in the stab department.

    @SHH_:

    Polehammer/Maul: I dislike their damage basically because knights were nerfed hard enough as it is. I dislike that any weapon can 1 shot a knight, and with the polehammer, lookdowns are far too effective.

    Removal of damaging components from below the hands would limit the effectiveness of lookdowns, but still leave them a viable and dangerous weapon. More a mechanics issue, but it would still cause the weapons themselves to be used differently as would a nerf to damage/speed/reach. If all else fails, a slight damage reduction to the maul so that the overhead leaves you with ~1% health instead of wiping you out completely would be game changing.



  • @SHH_:

    1. Bows/Xbows

    I don’t feel like they are overpowered.
    With shields archers are trivialised and even vanguards can move erratically to mitigate the chance of being hit.
    Though a good archer can compensate for this I understand, I just haven’t seen many do so.
    I think a slight nerf in projectile damage would be fine as archers can really hold their own in melee combat as well.

    I do have some other complaints:
    1. Head exploding bodkins, pebbles and lead balls.
    This is more of a visual complaint but I really dislike it.

    2. Projectile “stickies” not working proprerly or have been removed.
    This again, is a visual complaint. I have no idea why they would choose to remove them they added some flavor to the game.

    @SHH_:

    2. Greatsword

    I strongly disagree with the notion that the Greatsword is overpowered in any way shape or form.

    @SHH_:

    3. MAA

    @SHH_:

    A. Take away parry in recovery for MAA: This is really my only idea for how to nerf MAA without completely overhauling their mechanics. I think this would be fair as dodge is already an extremely powerful ability, and the fact that MAA can also perform parry in recovery gives them too many ways to escape their mistakes.

    I think this is a very good suggestion.
    I’m not a fan of the parry in recovery for any class really but, if they insist on keeping it for the purpose of making slower weapons more viable I see no reason as to why the MAA needs it.

    @SHH_:

    B. Firepots.

    They already received a nerf in not only damage but area of effect.
    I don’t think they are overpowered current patch.

    @SHH_:

    3. Brandistock

    @SHH_:

    A. The ridiculous LMB needs to be brought back into line as it is far too fast, and animates poorly. Damage may also need to be toned down if the timings are to remain the same for the stab attacks.

    Agreed. The spear class of weapon was completely viable prior to the patch that messed with them I think reverting to those values would be best.
    The only spear I feel that is lackluster is the Fork.
    My suggetion to make it a viable weapon is make it able to combo.
    This I feel is much better solution than making it obscenely fast like it is currently.

    @SHH_:

    1. Broadsword/Norse Sword

    This I believe is more of a case of the other weapons being just blatantly worse in design after the patch that removed the ability to dodge-attack.
    The weapons I find that are the most viable are the following:
    1. Broadsword - Jack of all trades
    2. Dane Axe - Useful for potentially 2 hitting vanguards and reliably 3 hitting knights
    3. Holy Water - Obnoxiously fast, very effective against knights.
    4. Norse Sword - Essentially a slightly faster, slightly less damaging broadsword.

    The reason most people do not use other weapons is because they have significantly less reach for the speed and/or damage trade off.
    Which is no longer viable because of the removal of dodge-attacking.
    I am fine with that, it just limits the MAA’s effective arsenal.

    I do however agree that the stabbing animation could be worked on.

    @SHH_:

    2. Claymore/Bearded Axe

    I only find them a nuisance in high latency servers.
    This is mostly because of animation desync which is very noticable on their riposte animations.
    If the animations behaved better I wouldn’t see a need to rebalance these weapons.

    @SHH_:

    3. Shortsword

    I’d be fine with the combo timings increased a bit.
    It would somewhat alleviate the various complaints of archers being too overwhelming in melee.

    @SHH_:

    1. Messer

    I think the messer one of the more balanced weapons in the game along with the greatsword.
    It may be more appealing now that the longsword and sword of war have received some nerfs but that does not make a case for it being too strong.
    The longsword and sword of war still retain some advantages over the messer it is just not as skewed in their favor.

    @SHH_:

    2. Polehammer/Maul

    The polehammer and maul’s only redeeming factor is their damage advantage I wouldn’t be for nerfing that.
    The only change I’d advocate is the adjustment of the polehammers overhead tracers so that the advantage of the look-down-overhead isn’t so powerful.
    Or if they implemented the new tracer system from Deadliest Warrior, that would solve the issue.
    I swear, that is the only redeeming quality of that game.

    @SHH_:

    3. Vanguard Charge

    I think it just needs a better animation.

    @SHH_:

    4. HWS

    I agree the stab is very silly, though I feel its one of the only shorter weapons in the game that can still be used effectively after the removal of the dodge-attack.
    The biggest problem I have with it is that the stab riposte is near instantaneous, you have to preemptively parry otherwise you’ll be hit.
    This is similar to some other fast weapons but, in the case of the HWS if they decide not to riposte and you parry they are able to stab you before you can recover.
    This makes it sort of a 50/50 game which I think needs to be changed.



  • To Alyx,

    I feel as though xbows/bows do too much damage. Most bows two-shot knights, and as I mentioned, it isn’t all that hard when you have 3-4 archers on your team to hit opponents simply by firing randomly. Also, damage modifiers mean that even arrows to non-critical areas do a fair amount of damage.

    As for the greatsword, it has literally no weaknesses. It has fantastic reach, exceptional damage, ridiculous combo times, effective lookdowns, easy draggability, and you can feint. I don’t find it particularly balanced, in my opinion. Why is it that you find it well-balanced?

    I wouldn’t mind a slight buff to SoW and LS in place of a messer nerf, but I do find the messer to be too much of a better choice than either SoW or LS at the moment.

    Bearded/Claymore: Yeah if the animations were such that they animated properly all the time, I wouldn’t mind their speed. However, as it stands, anyone with greater than 70ping or so with either will just go through perfectly timed parries, and its worse for ripostes.

    Spot on with the HWS assessment, you have to guess with the stab riposte, and it is a free hit essentially half the time.



  • To much subjective opinion IMO. Its fun to state each aspect we dislike but creating a subjective world is another story.



  • MAA dodging through stab windups is stupid and needs to be fixed. Its silly how they can impale them selves on a spear or sword held in the stab position and start an attack and score a hit and still flinch their targets windup. I don’t really have any problem with MAA dodging forward to the side of someone and scoring a hit, but when they dodge through a weapon held in the stab position (even though its in windup) it is stupid.

    The problem is not actually the speed of the weapons and the fact that MAA can dodge so well, it is more that they can dodge through weapons in their windup phase.
    This IS inconsistent in the C:MW world where if you’re unlucky enough to be standing behind someone windup up a 2h weapon for an overhead you get damage (from the start of the release).

    You could keep the game pretty much as it is if you added a special tracer to weapon windups to:
    -prevent players running themselves through stabs and attacks (if a spear held in the stab position can impale a horse i’m affraid it will harm an MAA as he dodges into it….)
    -balance the game in terms of keeping fast weapons and slow weapons together eg an MAA can make use of his lightningbolt broadsword if he’s careful not to leap on to the end of a spear and other weapons which are not lightning fast can still have some measure of effect.
    Just make the weapon windup tracer cause no damage and flinch and the problem is solved



  • @giantyak:

    You could keep the game pretty much as it is if you added a special tracer to weapon windups to:
    -prevent players running themselves through stabs and attacks (if a spear held in the stab position can impale a horse i’m affraid it will harm an MAA as he dodges into it….)
    -balance the game in terms of keeping fast weapons and slow weapons together eg an MAA can make use of his lightningbolt broadsword if he’s careful not to leap on to the end of a spear and other weapons which are not lightning fast can still have some measure of effect.
    Just make the weapon windup tracer cause no damage and flinch and the problem is solved

    Sounds interesting but I don’t think TBS is going to be overhauling C:MW’s tracers even though it would be nice.



  • @Alyx:

    @giantyak:

    You could keep the game pretty much as it is if you added a special tracer to weapon windups to:
    -prevent players running themselves through stabs and attacks (if a spear held in the stab position can impale a horse i’m affraid it will harm an MAA as he dodges into it….)
    -balance the game in terms of keeping fast weapons and slow weapons together eg an MAA can make use of his lightningbolt broadsword if he’s careful not to leap on to the end of a spear and other weapons which are not lightning fast can still have some measure of effect.
    Just make the weapon windup tracer cause no damage and flinch and the problem is solved

    Sounds interesting but I don’t think TBS is going to be overhauling C:MW’s tracers even though it would be nice.

    Yeah the reason I wanted to keep the discussion mostly on weapon balance is mostly because TB has made their stance on changing core game mechanics relatively clear (i.e. no radical changes), so I thought this would be more productive.



  • 1. Archers

    Agreed

    2. Greatsword

    I don’t think the greatsword deserves any damage nerfs but a windup, combo and recovery nerf. Having a .5 windup on the OH for the amount of reach and damage it has is ridiculous. The Greatsword, right now, is a 3 times longer morning star that you can drag easily.

    OH Damage:
    Both are a 3 HTK against knights
    Both are a 2 HTK against Vgs and MaAs
    The Greatsword OH can one shot archers, the MS is always a 2 HTK

    OH speeds:
    Have the same windup
    MS has .2 fast releases
    MS has .05 slower combos

    MS has .15 faster overall combos
    Overall slightly faster

    OH reach:
    Greatsword OH is at least 3 times longer

    OH dragability:
    The Greatsword is piss easy to drag when you can’t drag the Morning star

    Okay, Greatsword mains, now you want a MS speed buff? Then you’ll make the MS a higher damage, longer reaching Dane Axe…

    3. Man at Arms

    My clan is always saying that Man at Arms are the kings of 1v1 so in a team fight if 2 of you need to focus them. This is just straight up stupid that any one class requires so much attention to take out and let’s not forget that Man at Arms have by far the highest 1v2 potential. When 1v2ing competitive players, they’re much smarter than pubies and target switching doesn’t work at all. If you try and target switch in a 1v2, they’ll just spam you, hit you, causing you to lose the control of the fight to both of them and you will most likely die. If you want to 1v2 them, you have to use footwork to single off one at a time and beat him in a duel, then the next one; however, MaA don’t need a myriad of skill in footwork because they can accomplish this with dodge AND ridiculous run speed AND the 1v1 you can force so easily in that 1v2 scenario is an inevitable win, as any competitive MaA vs. any other competitive player as another class will end up with the MaA winning.

    4. Brandistock

    The LMB is it’s problem. Someone who properly uses the brandi will hit you with a thrust from max range and then since the recovery is so long, if you go for another thrust, they’ll hit you. So after you hit them and they charge in on you, LMB and run back out to max range and kill them with another thrust at max range. The fact that this weapon gets fast speed(LMB), very long reach(thrust) and high damage(thrust) all just for the single downside of the inability to combo is silly. The speed of the slash more than makes up for this one downside.

    5. Broad/Norse

    Agreed

    6. Claymore/Bearded Axe

    Agreed

    7. Shortsword

    Agreed

    8. Messer

    Agreed

    The current Messer is basically the pre-patch LS.

    Let’s compare the two:

    Pre-patch LS
    3 HTK against knights
    2 HTK against Vgs an MaAs
    1-2 HTK against archers

    Fast speed

    Longest knight weapon

    Post-patch Messer

    2-3 HTK against knights
    2 HTK against Vgs
    1-2 HTK against MaAs and archers

    Almost identical, fast speed(actually very slightly faster)

    Moderate reaching knight weapon

    As you can see, the Messer’s damage makes up for it’s reach to let it compete with the pre-patch LS. I think the Messer would be fine if it had the same HTK as the pre-patch LS and the same speed as the current LS.

    9. Polehammer/Maul

    If you nerf their HTK you make them worthless by making them have the same HTK of other weapons in it’s class and it will be slower and shorter than them and you’ll completely eliminate these weapons’ niche. Your reasoning for a damage nerf also didn’t make sense. Easy to hit-trade with by a good user(speed related) so nerf it’s damage. The only nerf(s) you can do to these weapons are speed and reach or else with the polehammer’s case you make it a much, much shorter Zwei with the same HTK and very similar speed and in the maul’s case you’ll make it a much, much slower and shorter grand mace by nerfing their damage.

    10. Vg charge

    Agreed

    11. HWS stab

    Agreed



  • But Jstorm! I thought Vanguard weapons were supposed to be OP??? :o



  • The real archerproblem is not the bows, it’s the crossbows. Why is there even a sniper in this game? Where’s the fun in sitting in a corner of the map showing the tip of your head for 1 second every 3 seconds. Most “pro-players” using bows are in semi-close or close quarter combat and could actually be killed.



  • +1

    Agree with everything pretty much.



  • @Jstorm:

    2. Greatsword

    I don’t think the greatsword deserves any damage nerfs but a windup, combo and recovery nerf. Having a .5 windup on the OH for the amount of reach and damage it has is ridiculous. The Greatsword, right now, is a 3 times longer morning star that you can drag easily.

    OH Damage:
    Both are a 3 HTK against knights
    Both are a 2 HTK against Vgs and MaAs
    The Greatsword OH can one shot archers, the MS is always a 2 HTK

    OH speeds:
    Have the same windup
    MS has .2 fast releases
    MS has .05 slower combos

    MS has .15 faster overall combos
    Overall slightly faster

    OH reach:
    Greatsword OH is at least 3 times longer

    OH dragability:
    The Greatsword is piss easy to drag when you can’t drag the Morning star

    Okay, Greatsword mains, now you want a MS speed buff? Then you’ll make the MS a higher damage, longer reaching Dane Axe…

    9. Polehammer/Maul

    If you nerf their HTK you make them worthless by making them have the same HTK of other weapons in it’s class and it will be slower and shorter than them and you’ll completely eliminate these weapons’ niche. Your reasoning for a damage nerf also didn’t make sense. Easy to hit-trade with by a good user(speed related) so nerf it’s damage. The only nerf(s) you can do to these weapons are speed and reach or else with the polehammer’s case you make it a much, much shorter Zwei with the same HTK and very similar speed and in the maul’s case you’ll make it a much, much slower and shorter grand mace by nerfing their damage.

    I definitely agree with your ideas for greatsword nerfs. I don’t generally like damage nerfs as I find it isn’t often a good balance solution.

    As for polehammer and maul, I do agree looking back. Again, I dislike damage nerfs, but given that TB is unlikely to implement any sort of edit tracer location-dependent edit based damage system, I am not entirely sure how to balance these two. I feel as though they are both decently balanced, but perhaps a bit too strong. Then again, I would hate to have the pre-patch situation where the maul was basically a slower, and inferior grand mace.



  • @omg87:

    But Jstorm! I thought Vanguard weapons were supposed to be OP??? :o

    That doesn’t mean any one or two vanguard weapons aren’t more powerful than the rest.



  • Man at arms nerf is the highest priority. Good luck killing one if you’re not an archer because they are the single best class in the game. Counter-attacks do nothing because they just dodge backwards. Most of their weapons are fast enough to be left mouse spammed to an effective face-hugging level. They have area denial in the form of fire pots. They can have shields so that even their one weakness - archers - are rendered nigh ineffective.

    Heavy weapons should stagger men at arms for every single hit, parry and block so that they’re forced to use all of their stamina dodging.

    As it is they just run away and spam voice commands because they know there’s nothing that any other class can do to them.



  • @giantyak:

    MAA dodging through stab windups is stupid and needs to be fixed. Its silly how they can impale them selves on a spear or sword held in the stab position and start an attack and score a hit and still flinch their targets windup. I don’t really have any problem with MAA dodging forward to the side of someone and scoring a hit, but when they dodge through a weapon held in the stab position (even though its in windup) it is stupid.

    The problem is not actually the speed of the weapons and the fact that MAA can dodge so well, it is more that they can dodge through weapons in their windup phase.
    This IS inconsistent in the C:MW world where if you’re unlucky enough to be standing behind someone windup up a 2h weapon for an overhead you get damage (from the start of the release).

    You could keep the game pretty much as it is if you added a special tracer to weapon windups to:
    -prevent players running themselves through stabs and attacks (if a spear held in the stab position can impale a horse i’m affraid it will harm an MAA as he dodges into it….)
    -balance the game in terms of keeping fast weapons and slow weapons together eg an MAA can make use of his lightningbolt broadsword if he’s careful not to leap on to the end of a spear and other weapons which are not lightning fast can still have some measure of effect.
    Just make the weapon windup tracer cause no damage and flinch and the problem is solved

    What an utterly stupid idea.

    I’m sorry, but having a weapon that can flinch people during its wind up stages as well as having the longest reaching weapon in the game, this would make the spear class of weapon trees completely broken as well as many others. You cannot attack during dodge state any more and the time it would take to dodge + attack someone is longer than any wind up in the game. This would mean that anyone who ripostes a MaA’s attack will completely nullify their dodge because the wind up of their weapon would be INSTANTLY upon them. And even if it did no damage, they would be flinched and receive a free hit.

    Any weapon during its wind up state should be completely harmless, it’s the position of the release and where it goes which should be the only thing that does damage or does ANYTHING to another player. If someone is stabbing against the MaA, a common tactic is too dodge directly to the left/right and avoid any possible drag they might try. You would eliminate any chance of escape for the MaA if they cannot dodge against people who put the wind up of their weapon through the player, which is extremely common for those insanely fast ripostes or attacks where you are so close that weapons are winding up inside the enemy player.

    For the rest of your suggestions for the MaA, I feel most of them are too drastic. Fire pot serves its purpose now as being an area denial tool with its changes where it sets people on fire who now cross over the spot and it does less damage than it did before. If you are taking a fire pot as MaA, then you are now at a vulnerability to archers and any other ranged weapons as you are now naked without a shield.

    Broadsword vs. Norse sword is a tricky one.
    On one hand you have the Broadsword which is better in every category save speed, which Norse sword has as it is the fastest of the MaA sword primaries. Of course, the speed difference between the two is so miniscule, this means the Broadsword is your go to, jack of all trades weapon for the MaA. I think they are fine as it is, but if you want to distinguish the two and make them different on some scale, I would say change how the weapon combo’s work or make the damage difference between certain attacks (stab vs stab for instance) more noticeable. Or go with what you said and either buff the other weapons to make them more viable.
    And your issue with the animations for the Broadsword and the Norse Sword is a fallacy. There are plenty of other weapons in this game that have extremely poor, if not worse animations i.e. every single vanguard weapon that gets an accelerated attack during a riposte. You shouldn’t nerf a weapon based off its animation, you should strive to fix the animation first before doing anything with the damage, speed or range. Of course, TB refuses to listen to this advice and they go about nerfing and buffing weapon’s speed or range based off the shitty animations or hit tracers placed on weapons.



  • @DokB:

    What an utterly stupid idea.

    I’m sorry, but having a weapon that can flinch people during its wind up stages as well as having the longest reaching weapon in the game, this would make the spear class of weapon trees completely broken as well as many others. You cannot attack during dodge state any more and the time it would take to dodge + attack someone is longer than any wind up in the game. This would mean that anyone who ripostes a MaA’s attack will completely nullify their dodge because the wind up of their weapon would be INSTANTLY upon them. And even if it did no damage, they would be flinched and receive a free hit.

    Any weapon during its wind up state should be completely harmless, it’s the position of the release and where it goes which should be the only thing that does damage or does ANYTHING to another player. If someone is stabbing against the MaA, a common tactic is too dodge directly to the left/right and avoid any possible drag they might try. You would eliminate any chance of escape for the MaA if they cannot dodge against people who put the wind up of their weapon through the player, which is extremely common for those insanely fast ripostes or attacks where you are so close that weapons are winding up inside the enemy player.

    For the rest of your suggestions for the MaA, I feel most of them are too drastic. Fire pot serves its purpose now as being an area denial tool with its changes where it sets people on fire who now cross over the spot and it does less damage than it did before. If you are taking a fire pot as MaA, then you are now at a vulnerability to archers and any other ranged weapons as you are now naked without a shield.

    Broadsword vs. Norse sword is a tricky one.
    On one hand you have the Broadsword which is better in every category save speed, which Norse sword has as it is the fastest of the MaA sword primaries. Of course, the speed difference between the two is so miniscule, this means the Broadsword is your go to, jack of all trades weapon for the MaA. I think they are fine as it is, but if you want to distinguish the two and make them different on some scale, I would say change how the weapon combo’s work or make the damage difference between certain attacks (stab vs stab for instance) more noticeable. Or go with what you said and either buff the other weapons to make them more viable.
    And your issue with the animations for the Broadsword and the Norse Sword is a fallacy. There are plenty of other weapons in this game that have extremely poor, if not worse animations i.e. every single vanguard weapon that gets an accelerated attack during a riposte. You shouldn’t nerf a weapon based off its animation, you should strive to fix the animation first before doing anything with the damage, speed or range. Of course, TB refuses to listen to this advice and they go about nerfing and buffing weapon’s speed or range based off the shitty animations or hit tracers placed on weapons.

    I did say that if they fixed the animation, those two probably wouldn’t need to be touched. That being said, they (broad and norse) remain basically the two most used MAA options.

    I recognize that the riposte animations for vanguard weapons are also poor, however, the 1h stabs are more of a problem in my opinion.

    My problem with firepots is that they are literally a guaranteed hit that does pretty significant damage. I’d like to see them made harder to use as they require basically no aiming or timing, most MAA just spam them on the same spot.


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