Ninja critique and observations



  • Ninja, some observations and ideas to make it a better class.

    So to start off, I want to look at the movement speed of the Ninja. Currently, the Ninja and the Pirate are the two “fastest” classes in Deadliest Warrior. However, this speed “advantage” doesn’t amount to anything as the difference in speed between the classes is almost negligible. Considering some other disadvantages the Ninja faces against other classes (which I’ll discuss in a bit) moving at basically the same speed is a handicap.

    Secondly, I’d like to discuss the Ninja’s weapon speed. All of the Ninja’s weapons are fairly sprightly if compared statistically to the other classes’ weapons, however as I had already stated with movement speed, the Ninja’s weapons speed “advantage” is almost negligible in actual combat.
    Say a Ninja swung his Ninjato and a Samurai swung his Katana (Dai-Katana? the big default 2 hander), the Ninjato would technically hit first. That’s a perfect scenario though, and if the Ninja in question swung his Ninjato even a tenth of a second later, the Katana would hit first. This puts an obvious disadvantage on the Ninja as after their alpha strike (assuming they get the jump on their opponent), the longer they are in in combat, the less likely they are to win (in my experience).
    Because their weapons have very little speed advantage on their opponents, the only strike that matters is their alpha strike, which is basically the same with all other classes.

    Thirdly, the Ninja’s weapons have very little reach. Compared to all the other classes, the Ninja’s weapons are akin to toothpicks. As a Ninja, one must get VERY close to hit their opponents effectively, this can be very difficult for such a fragile class that can often be killed by one well placed shot from many weapons. To this point, I don’t personally mind the short weapons, but it adds to the difficulty of the class and it also has an impact on other factors.

    Fourthly, the Ninja weapons’ damage are all very low. Not much more to be said about this, try the class out and see for yourself.

    Lastly, our roll mechanic needs some love. At the moment it is a bit clunky and covers very little ground. You roll about 1/2 a foot and then get up, there is a slight delay after rolling and movement, which can be a bigger hindrance than it sounds.
    Also, as it stands the roll cannot interrupt your own attacks. THIS IS AN ISSUE. You should be able to roll mid attack if you need to, but instead you are stuck finishing the attack before you can roll (which often kills you, because if you need to roll, generally it’s because you are about to be chopped in half or impaled on something sharp).

    So what does all this mean big picture wise? Well, considering the fragility of the class and the fact that we do not have a significant speed advantage (mobility wise) on the other classes, we cannot adequately perform hit and run tactics as it seems the class was intended to do. Then, taking into account the fact that our weapons really aren’t that fast in the long run, our CQC falls short because we cannot swing fast enough to make up for our low damage.
    Also, because of our short reach, we are forced to facehug the enemy in order to actually hit them. This is made difficult and dangerous due to our mediocre speed and low health. The fact that the roll will not effectively get you out of harms way doesn’t help either. Taking into account the reach of our opponents weapons, our short range weapons and our low speed makes CQC awkward. To effectively stay out of our opponents reach we need to stay WELL out of our own, which considering that almost all of our opponents weapons have a significant reach advantage over ours, makes this a more difficult maneuver than it sounds.

    Ideas for improvement:
    -Improve the speed of the class to be noticeably faster than that of the other classes (I suppose the Pirate could get the speed boost as well, considering they have the same armor rating).
    -Improve the speed of the Ninja’s weapons so they are noticeably faster.
    -Keep the damage the same, it feels fine for a skirmishing class.
    -Fix the roll to make it cover more distance and allow it to be used at any time (even during your own attacks).
    -Range can remain the same.
    -Health can remain the same.

    TL;DR:
    The Ninja’s lack of speed both mobility wise and weapon wise is bringing the class down. In order to allow it’s full potential, the speed value for their running/walking and weapons should be increased to make up for their low reach/low damage weapons and overall low health.

    Sorry for the mental dysentery, I’ve been ruminating on this for a while. Thanks for reading!
    -Quiiliitiila



  • I fully support this! 100%! I love the ninja class and i like them!



  • Also smokepots could need a serious buff. I agree with your points above though.



  • @HammelGammel:

    Also smokepots could need a serious buff. I agree with your points above though.

    Absolutely, I had chosen to leave out specific weapons/tricks as currently I’m not yet an “expert” on them. That being said, It is completely safe to say the smoke bomb needs a little something-something to become a viable secondary for the Ninja.

    My suggestion would be to increase the radius and duration of the smokebomb as well as making it a little transparent for the Ninja who threw it. That way the Ninja may fight in the cloud that he had used to envelope his opponent, without being just as blind as they are.

    Also, the smoke bomb currently still allows the crosshairs to identify friend or foe by turning red when mousing over an enemy. This should be removed. I get the feeling it was not an intended feature, seeing as how this is Beta, it’s a safe bet I’m right :P

    -Q



  • Also smokepot should stop draining the ninja’s stamina.



  • Rolling during an attack seems like too much of a Do Over.

    Attacking after a roll could stand to have the immoblize removed.

    Attacking coming out of a roll, similar to the MAA 2nd half of the dodge+attack.



  • I can feel many of the points you brought up.
    I currently don’t mind the range of the ninja’s weapons, though preferably I’d rather have the ninjas’ longest weapon be something other than the Bo. I can’t blame TB for being uninspired, but the Bo is quite certainly a very bland ninja weapon. An interesting ninja weapon would be both, the Kasuri-Gama

    Or the Kyogetsu-Shogei

    The Kama is already implemented, but the Kama, and Kasurigama mechanically would function differently.
    The Kyogetsu-Shogei is much the same as the Kasurigama, you entangle the opponent with the weighted edge of the chain, then pull them in while they’re snared for the kill.

    To imagine how they would work in game, it would be much like a duel-wielded flail. With left hand, you would wield the slicing weapon, and with the right hand, you’d twirl/swing the weighted end. Including some sort of snare mechanic would be the icing… But at this point i’m afraid i’ve typed too far in to the realm of fantasy dreams for TB to really pull off.
    But in the end, as it stands I can’t agree that Ninja damage feels low.
    (even though later you said its good enough for skirmisher class) - The ninjato and Kama are both extremely deadly weapons.
    If you land 2 overheads with each, on most class… you will kill them.
    A kama ‘stab’ attack headshot can 1 shot under certain scenarios I think…
    Surely would like to see some more speed given… we need to ‘dash’. If the ninja isn’t ‘dashing’ when at full speed run, then he’s at sub-par ninja speed.

    Malev



  • @Malev:

    I can feel many of the points you brought up.
    I currently don’t mind the range of the ninja’s weapons, though preferably I’d rather have the ninjas’ longest weapon be something other than the Bo. I can’t blame TB for being uninspired, but the Bo is quite certainly a very bland ninja weapon. An interesting ninja weapon would be both, the Kasuri-Gama

    Or the Kyogetsu-Shogei

    The Kama is already implemented, but the Kama, and Kasurigama mechanically would function differently.
    The Kyogetsu-Shogei is much the same as the Kasurigama, you entangle the opponent with the weighted edge of the chain, then pull them in while they’re snared for the kill.

    To imagine how they would work in game, it would be much like a duel-wielded flail. With left hand, you would wield the slicing weapon, and with the right hand, you’d twirl/swing the weighted end. Including some sort of snare mechanic would be the icing… But at this point i’m afraid i’ve typed too far in to the realm of fantasy dreams for TB to really pull off.
    Malev

    That Kasurigama would be a sick addition to our arsenal, I had been thinking of it the other day (coincidentally). My idea was it could be a dual wielded weapon; one side chain, the other Kama. The Kama would act like it does now with slightly less damage (or the same, whatever the devs want :P) and the chain would be a higher range attack that would act like a projectile, but be pulled in after the throw/attack.

    @Malev:

    But in the end, as it stands I can’t agree that Ninja damage feels low.
    (even though later you said its good enough for skirmisher class) - The ninjato and Kama are both extremely deadly weapons.
    If you land 2 overheads with each, on most class… you will kill them.
    A kama ‘stab’ attack headshot can 1 shot under certain scenarios I think…
    Surely would like to see some more speed given… we need to ‘dash’. If the ninja isn’t ‘dashing’ when at full speed run, then he’s at sub-par ninja speed.

    It wasn’t so much that they were “low damage” weapons, but the combination of lower damage and short reach, coupled with their sub-par movement speed makes a combination that is sorely lacking when compared to the other classes.

    Individually, these issues are not really issues. It’s when they all come together that we begin to see the problems that arise from combining these attributes.

    In the end, I think the best thing to do with the Ninja class is increase their movement speed and weapon speed. That will put us into a good place.

    -Q



  • Ninja’s fine, he doesn’t need any-
    @Malev:

    the Kasuri-Gama

    The Kama is already implemented, but the Kama, and Kasurigama mechanically would function differently.

    yes pls
    alternatively, you could have the weighted ball in the secondary slot as an option usable with all the one handed weapon attacks



  • ^ I feel you on that, BB. I think that would be a neat idea aswell.

    If anyone doubts the combat effectiveness of such a weapon, please watch this video.
    If you click forward to exactly 6 minutes, you’ll It’s an excellent display of the combat usage of the weighted end of the weapon.

    7Tj8fIrUBFA

    http://youtu.be/7Tj8fIrUBFA?t=6m < – for those that prefer to go directly to 6m on YT.

    That weapon would be a lot of fun.

    Malev


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