An idea for simultaneously nerfing samurai and buffing ninja



  • Directional attack modifiers.

    Ok, to elaborate.
    Most of the other classes in the game were, in their era, professional soldiers. (pirates were private citizens, but they still did a lot of fighting). Ninja are unique amongst the classes in DW, because in their time they were assassins. Agents who worked alone, and mostly silently murdered unaware targets. Ninja weren’t really a common sight in formation on a battlefield.

    I think to reflect this, we should simply copy over a mechanic from the Archer in medieval warfare, but give it to the ninja who is much more appropriately positioned to use it. Backstabbing! Give the ninja a damage bonus on all weapons when striking an enemy in their back (and perhaps a smaller bonus for side/flank strikes). This would make ninja more of a support role, and players would roam around the battlefield looking for fights to interject themselves in, and assist an ally by stabbing a viking in the rear end. Positioning, and use of their dodge roll, would become more important.

    On the other end of the spectrum, we have the samurai. which (aside from pirates) get the most complaints about being overpowered/noobish. Samurai were not just soldiers, but an elite social class within their society. they followed a code of honour, and valued it above their own lives (or so all the best stories tell, anyway). Stabbing people in the back seems uncharacteristic for a samurai.

    Therefore, as a means of both reducing their power, and making them more thematically appropriate, i propose forcing samurai to fight head-on with their enemies, by giving them a penalty for non-frontal hits. Strikes against an enemies side/rear would deal significantly less damage than usual (perhaps would even injure the attacker as a punishment). If this ends up making them too weak, it could be balanced out by also giving them a bonus to frontal damage.

    Rather than just being a generic soldier, this would give samurai an incentive to seek out duels. Players would actively look for unengaged enemies and try to take them in single combat.

    Indirectly, this change to samurai would also reduce the power of the standard LMB attack, because a horizontal swing is likely to hit your enemy in the side, and thus do less damage. Thrusting and overhead strikes would become more useful as you can precisely hit the enemy in the face with them

    And if nothing else, this would at least weaken the “grab a nodachi and run around swinging til you die” strategy.

    Thoughts ?



  • The ideas actually are pretty good! Samurai should do normal damage if their enemy is running away though. This should be doable!

    +1



  • Firstly, I think that encouraging Samurai players to be honorable, seek out duels - and possibly honor 1v1 duels between Samurai players would be a very cool thing to see develop among the community.

    But, truthfully, I don’t feel the mechanic would have a place in the game.
    I have a feeling historical Samurai had no qualms about cutting down people running away from them, especially if they were ‘lesser’.
    Looking at some of the later battles in the warring states era, there are many scenarios of particularly barbaric actions. The same honor code, that drove them to do honorable things, was the same thing that drove them to do horrible things.
    In short, I do not think that honor was considered in a sort of ‘courteous’ way. In the chaotic melee, warriors would still slice foes who were not facing them, and I’m sure more often than not friendlies swinging blades at one another for the kill happened.

    Considering ninja, it is often myth that ninja were exclusively assassins. A more appropriate term would be ‘spy’. Even the ninja represented in DW is what I would call a ‘hollywood’ ninja.
    Ninja were unwarlike. In fact, ninja became ninja often because they did not want to serve their previous master, or did not want to be swept up in war, moving to the hills to live in secret.
    ‘Retired’ Samurai, and their next generations were really who became the ninja.

    But of course, ninja were used for combat/ambush and espionage assassination roles, but these were far more rare than the more useful skills. (information gathering, stealth).
    The mechanical idea for a backstab bonus for ninja, I don’t feel fits in the game.

    A novel idea, but it would really become too much when fighting multiple ninja, and it would see that the ninja player is simply constantly trying to exploit that backstab bonus with every attack, rather than just simply attacking.
    Ninja need buffs in non-damage ways. Buffs to tools, their mobility. But personally I don’t feel the need for backstab bonuses. The archer it worked, because they need that edge to GET OUT OF melee. But ninja… they want to stay in melee.

    Sorry to blast the text wall, but … those are my thoughts. :D

    Malev



  • -1

    Negative. Samurais are not OP, its just the people that don’t know how to block their swings. It takes time to learn the samurai’s attacks and once you know it will be very casual to block their swing and continue with whatever combo you want.



  • No way dude, new tactic vs samurai would be roflcopter style. Damage penalty are you serious? What do you expect him to do, hara-kiri when he kills someone from behind? lmao



  • Yeah, no offense but this is a really bad idea.

    Ninja backstab is not a terrible idea, but samurai weak damage or self-damage for hitting back and sides is a HORRIBLE design idea.



  • @Yggr:

    No way dude, new tactic vs samurai would be roflcopter style. Damage penalty are you serious? What do you expect him to do, hara-kiri when he kills someone from behind? lmao

    even with a damage penalty, taking a katana to the back is still gonna hurt. nobody is going to turn their back to an enemy in battle.



  • @Nanako:

    @Yggr:

    No way dude, new tactic vs samurai would be roflcopter style. Damage penalty are you serious? What do you expect him to do, hara-kiri when he kills someone from behind? lmao

    even with a damage penalty, taking a katana to the back is still gonna hurt. nobody is going to turn their back to an enemy in battle.

    Last resort? I definitely would. If you jump and spin you can force a back leg hit, reducing damage to under 40% (assuming 50% back damage). If you jump off to the side as well you can possibly force blue or green tracer hits for even more reduced damage.

    Jumping to force leg hits is a very popular last ditch move in Chivalry already, forced back hits would be extremely commonplace among good players and would probably render Samurai rather useless in high skill games.

    It’s an interesting idea thematically, but from a gameplay standpoint I don’t see it working.



  • Many people have suggested backstab bonus for the Ninja. I’m opposed to this. Ninjas have silent footsteps and attacks, granting them easier hits from behind. It wouldn’t make much sense to make them even more powerful when backstabbing.



  • @Malev:

    Firstly, I think that encouraging Samurai players to be honorable, seek out duels - and possibly honor 1v1 duels between Samurai players would be a very cool thing to see develop among the community.

    But, truthfully, I don’t feel the mechanic would have a place in the game.
    I have a feeling historical Samurai had no qualms about cutting down people running away from them, especially if they were ‘lesser’.
    Looking at some of the later battles in the warring states era, there are many scenarios of particularly barbaric actions. The same honor code, that drove them to do honorable things, was the same thing that drove them to do horrible things.
    In short, I do not think that honor was considered in a sort of ‘courteous’ way. In the chaotic melee, warriors would still slice foes who were not facing them, and I’m sure more often than not friendlies swinging blades at one another for the kill happened.

    Considering ninja, it is often myth that ninja were exclusively assassins. A more appropriate term would be ‘spy’. Even the ninja represented in DW is what I would call a ‘hollywood’ ninja.
    Ninja were unwarlike. In fact, ninja became ninja often because they did not want to serve their previous master, or did not want to be swept up in war, moving to the hills to live in secret.
    ‘Retired’ Samurai, and their next generations were really who became the ninja.

    But of course, ninja were used for combat/ambush and espionage assassination roles, but these were far more rare than the more useful skills. (information gathering, stealth).
    The mechanical idea for a backstab bonus for ninja, I don’t feel fits in the game.

    A novel idea, but it would really become too much when fighting multiple ninja, and it would see that the ninja player is simply constantly trying to exploit that backstab bonus with every attack, rather than just simply attacking.
    Ninja need buffs in non-damage ways. Buffs to tools, their mobility. But personally I don’t feel the need for backstab bonuses. The archer it worked, because they need that edge to GET OUT OF melee. But ninja… they want to stay in melee.

    Sorry to blast the text wall, but … those are my thoughts. :D

    Malev

    Actually as much as the ninja is romanticized, Some stereotypes of the ninja are actually true despite how romanticized they seem. Some ninja did get involved in the wars of the Shogunates, This happened during the reign of the Tokugawa.

    The iga ninja were known to get involved in war, It’s weird because one of the most reputable ninjas of all time is Hattori Hanzo but he served as a samurai and ninja master and unlike most ninjas who use swords or kamas or tantos, Hanzo used spears which completely defies anything we’ve learned growing up with all this romanticized holywood crap fed to us.

    Another person implied that ninjas didn’t wear armour and looked like normal farmers and peasants this is true in the case of intelligence gathering but ninjas did infact have real armour there is plenty of evidence to support it.

    That’s actually real ninja armour, If you look at the bottoms you can see all the little pouches tied to the armour this was used for their utilities like their shurikens and black eggs so the ninja was actually a well armoured and resourceful warrior.



  • Ninja are silent. Its easy to sneak up behind someone and get 1-2 free hits anyway. Bugging it would be bad.



  • This is a bad idea. Ninjas do more dmg at the back stabs? You already can’t hear them walk behind you and they get a free hit, more dmg would mean they could kill some classes in 1 hit and most classes in like 2. This is way op considering how good they can be punishing missed hits with their rolls.
    Samurais do less dmg if hit on sides or back is just terrible idea. There is already a stupid tracer system that reduces dmg if you drag, I had to hit spartan 4 times to kill him while going 1 vs 4, call that fair. If samurai had even more reduced dmg from sides and back they would literally be the worst class in the game. How would you even hit anyone if you only could hit from the front? People would just block you every time and going to the sides would not even worth it if the dmg was even less if hit there.



  • @lemonater47:

    Ninja are silent. Its easy to sneak up behind someone and get 1-2 free hits anyway. Bugging it would be bad.

    This would be relevant if people paid attention to sounds, but they don’t. Cut it out, lemon. I sneak up on people as a knight full sprinting and get 2 free hits anyway.



  • I don’t want either class buffed or nerfed at this time



  • @omg87:

    @lemonater47:

    Ninja are silent. Its easy to sneak up behind someone and get 1-2 free hits anyway. Bugging it would be bad.

    This would be relevant if people paid attention to sounds, but they don’t. Cut it out, lemon. I sneak up on people as a knight full sprinting and get 2 free hits anyway.

    I pay attention to the sounds as do many others. Most people do unless they think its a friendly behind them.

    Ninja can sneak up at sprinting speed 100% of the time. To do it 100% of the time as a knight you would have to crouch all the way.



  • @lemonater47:

    @omg87:

    @lemonater47:

    Ninja are silent. Its easy to sneak up behind someone and get 1-2 free hits anyway. Bugging it would be bad.

    This would be relevant if people paid attention to sounds, but they don’t. Cut it out, lemon. I sneak up on people as a knight full sprinting and get 2 free hits anyway.

    I pay attention to the sounds as do many others. Most people do unless they think its a friendly behind them.

    Ninja can sneak up at sprinting speed 100% of the time. To do it 100% of the time as a knight you would have to crouch all the way.

    When there are multiple teams around you, everyone is dying as they should be in a chivalry game, what good is silence going to do you when people are wary and/or travel in groups? This isn’t really an advantage. There are only so many places to hide. The fact that a knight is just as capable of sneaking around because of all the noise going on should tell you how useless this ‘advantage’ is.


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