Problems with the competitive scene survey



  • @CRUSHED:

    What is this thread even about? Don’t you think torn banner and Tibberius crew of masterminds would know whats best for their game? You guys sound like some whiny elitist asshats. You guys are like 1% of the games population and torn banner wants to balance the game for everyone else, not some “competitive players” who abuse certain mechanics that barely anyone knows to stomp noobies. Feints were OP and you should make more decisions and should not have that much player control, its just unfair to new players. You SHOULD be punished for missing and limited in your actions, its realistic. The bubble is also a legitimate mechanic and good for the game, it made those unblockable onehander swings finally blockable and reduced the effectiveness of the overpowered facehug tactic.

    Sadly that’s what typical CMW player thinks about “competitive players”.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    @CRUSHED:

    What is this thread even about? Don’t you think torn banner and Tibberius crew of masterminds would know whats best for their game? You guys sound like some whiny elitist asshats. You guys are like 1% of the games population and torn banner wants to balance the game for everyone else, not some “competitive players” who abuse certain mechanics that barely anyone knows to stomp noobies. Feints were OP and you should make more decisions and should not have that much player control, its just unfair to new players. You SHOULD be punished for missing and limited in your actions, its realistic. The bubble is also a legitimate mechanic and good for the game, it made those unblockable onehander swings finally blockable and reduced the effectiveness of the overpowered facehug tactic.

    Sadly that’s what typical CMW player thinks about “competitive players”.

    So lets say they reverted to an old patch. All the 1% competitive players came back and joined the pub servers to decimate the newbies. Killing them basically 50 to 1 which is quite realistic.

    The nubs playing leave because its not fun to be slaughtered. 1% of them stay.

    So we go back down to 500 concurrent players - however there is a competitive scene !

    Anything wrong with that picture from a business perspective?

    Personally I think the competitive scene would grow if maps were added that made tactics and strategy more important. So scrims become a battle of brains and brawn.



  • I felt the need to reply as this is the main problem I have with Chivalry and where it has gone.

    I was here from the very beginning. Played Age of Chivalry (HL2 Mod) and backed Torn Banners sequel on kickstarter with a decent amount of cash, because I believed in this game. Got into the beta and put in over 180 hours before it was even released. (I even have a Mason Order T-Shirt; love it by the way)

    I doubt anyone around here will even remember me now, as its been about a year. Than again some might. In short I’m a Youtuber. I was the first person on Youtube to upload gameplay for Chivalry, and at the time there was a forum topic dedicated to my videos as well as any others who uploaded Chivalry related content.

    I played with the Devs during the beta quite regularly, and they themselves watched my videos for input and entertainment. Being called out in every match I joined by random players who subscribed to me and watched my content; being excited to play with me. It was genuinely a good time, every time I launched the game.

    This game got me recognized by a very known Youtuber that goes by the name TotalBiscuit, and essentially launched my channel into what it is now. Getting me noticed by networks and eventually scored me a partnership.

    So as you can tell, I have a special place in my heart for this game and am very passionate about it. So seeing where it has gone has pained me quite a bit.

    I’ve gradually noticed over time how the game has become less about skill and more about accessibility and ease of learning the game. All the new mechanics which essentially break the games core values is what completely turned me away from the game.

    I’m a pretty competitive individual. I would remember being able to take on groups of enemies at a time by myself and feeling a sense of pride knowing my skill allowed me to best my opponents regardless of being out numbered. I’ve discussed this with other youtubers and avid subscribers and we’ve all agreed the game has taken a turn for the worse.

    I still play it from time to time and have fun with it. But I can’t make content for it anymore because I’ve effectively ran out of good things to say about the game because my overall impressions now are negative.

    I really wish Torn Banners would open their eyes and revert the game back to what all the core player base that has been with them since the beginning loved; instead of watching them leave and move on to other games because of the decisions they made to implement new game mechanics which were completely unnecessary.

    I’m just glad I’m not the only one who feels this way.
    End of rant.



  • I have nothing to add that hasn’t already been said. But I would like to point out about balance by qouting Vq DoomyDoom

    “Vq.| DoomyDoom: the only fun class to play is archer because he doesnt have to deal with melee as much
    Vq.| DoomyDoom: and when he does archer is best melee in the game besides maa”

    Finally an honest archer. I have been saying pretty much since release that the archer is OP when you consider that they have both the added bonus of ranged kills, back stab bonus and the best melee in the game. Many players have quite playing because of these class imbalances on top of the dreaded bubble which I was among the first to say it was the dumbest idea to nerf a valid tactic by changing a game mechanic was the bubble.



  • The one thing I find really wrong with this, how term “competitive” used. It can’t be used more wrong in this game. What the other players doing then? Do they join the game and don’t try to kill anyone? Those whole game is competition driven and you can’t just call a small group of people, mainly cause half of them are in clans, a competitive scene. I even heard some people say that not using feints makes someone not a competitive player, can they be more wrong. The point is nearly everyone is a part of a competitive scene, thats why you even see people under rank 10 speak as if they know something and get pissed if they lose. The people that many for some reason call “the competitive players” are actually just a really good players, does not make them the only freaking competitive players in the game. You either call them a good player or a pro.
    The patch that everyone hated and made everyone stop playing, am I the only one that actually liked that patch? The classes had no balance, the weapon balance was bad. Knight with sow, is all I have to say. There are some things I dislike about the patch and that would be the bubble. It works alright in front, but it sucks if you try to chase someone with short weapon.
    I don’t play chivalry myself that much anymore but thats cause I just spent a lot of time on it and some things there are really irritating.



  • I play chiv a fair bit still.

    It is a game I keep coming back to.

    The Bubble patch sucked, well some of it did, some was OK. Removal of CFTP, adding the bubble to try and prevent facehugging plus some other bits and pieces removed complexity from the game. It made it easier to learn.
    In the attached image I try and illustrate the learning curve of a game.

    Ideally you don’t want your learning curve leveling out. Unfortunately Chiv’s learning curve starts to level out comparatively early when compared to games like Dota. More weapons/maps/mechanics/classes and so on extend the learning curve and can also alter the shape. Different people like different phases of a curve.

    In Dota for instance, the intial learning curve is steep, most can agree on that. Many people do not like that brutal beginning. Many persists though because after that curve it becomes reasonable and far more enjoyable, there friends get them through it and give reason to push past the initial learning.

    Chiv on the other hand starts of simple. Pick any waepon and LMB it and you are bound to get kills and voices are easy to do maps are straight forward. Easy fun, then after a small bit of time you start learning the mechanics better, the complexity increases at a fairly reasonable rate. However it doesn’t take all that long to learn that each weapon is mechanically the same. LMB/Overhead/Stab they are just different speeds/ranges. So once you learn the maps better, you learn the different attacks, learn to parry/block reasonably and the different classes your learning curve starts to level out.
    What you have left are the deeper mechanics, stabbing around shields, effective dragging, good feinting, better grasp of weapon speeds and ranges.
    The problem here is, no new maps, no new classes, no new weapons. All the low hanging learning fruit is GONE and no more coming. Then CFTP for instance is taken away, CFTP was an advanced skill, well placed in the curve to keep learning at a reasonable pace, it is gone though.
    The Bubble came in, this reduces the finer skills needed to parry/block/manage close players. Another lowering of the curve.

    I would wager, a large percentage of players don’t like the phase of the curve that is flattened out, the area the requires spending more time then previous to learn less skill (this is the art of perfecting skills). So by not adding new content AND removing late phase learning A LARGE majority of players have no incentive to continue playing.



  • @Sciffer:

    The point is nearly everyone is a part of a competitive scene, thats why you even see people under rank 10 speak as if they know something and get pissed if they lose. The people that many for some reason call “the competitive players” are actually just a really good players, does not make them the only freaking competitive players in the game.

    Two different uses of the word competetive. To be a part of the competetive scene a player must

    1. Be near the skillcap
    2. Play to be the best

    You can even eliminated #1 if someone is really dedicated. Sure, everyone is competetive in the sense that everyone is trying to win. Most people aren’t really trying to be the best player/group of players, though. They just want to chop some heads.

    @Toll:

    Blah blah blah, and then that epic graph

    Sweet graph. How’d you make it? Even if I do disagree on the shape of the curves. Also the way you have the axis set up kinda messes with people’s concept of a “learning curve”; usually when they say a steep learning curve it means you spend a lot of time on the game without much return in the way of skill, which is the opposite of what steep would be on your graphs.



  • @Sciffer:

    The most in accurate boring drivel I can post

    Yes you are among the few that liked the killer patch. Fist off you entire analysis of what is considered competitive is beyond idiotic. The competitive scene involves organized effort for both scrims and tournament. You will not find this while pubbing. The competive scene has died down because the game mechanics are totally broken. You cannot rely on anything to be even semi accurate. Swings and parries fail more than 50% of the time while looking accurate on the players screen. This is what kills a competitive scene. The competitive scene is what keeps a game like this alive. By hosting servers, creating custom content, and basically going beserker on pubs. That makes pubbers say, damn those guys were good, I hate them but I want to be that good. Sadly the game mechanics were changed in the bubble patch to kill any skills required by time and learning.

    Prior to the bubble patch I had earned every kill to be a rank 49. The bubble patch introduced the rank bug among all the other freaking bugs and side effects from the bubble to make the game only recreational at best. Most AOC veterans that kept AOC alive for 3 years waiting for Chiv, are all but gone because they were exhausted from 8 years of horrible development choices and patching making the game far from fun or enjoyable.



  • Firstly I agree with this

    ƒ| sk00ma: thats a pretty loaded question lol

    And the next question “Would you say the game got overly simplified/boring?” is the most loaded question you could possibly ask.

    This is what’s called “push polling” where the questions asked lead to the desired answers. I think the responses here are fairly accurate though.

    Anyway getting to the heart of the matter I think the best thing to hope for is that TB will take some of the changes to combat they have made in DW and apply them to vanilla chivalry. This includes a major reduction in the bubble and flinch windows.

    However I would not like to see vanilla Chivalry at DW run speed, it’s just a little too arcadey (although the Knight needs a speed increase).

    Either that or the widespread adoption of some mod like Chivalry+.



  • 1) What would you say is the biggest reason you don’t play chivalry as much as you did say a few months ago?

    The patch.

    2) Would you say the game got overly simplified/boring?

    Add frustrating, stupid and clunky and you pretty much have it.

    As I said in another thread, anyone intelligent that takes a critical step away from this game should see how poorly it’s put together. Once the “magic” of the concept wears thin, you’re left with a pretty sub-par product in terms of functionality, consistency and polish… especially when considering other titles created under the same engine.

    The concept alone can only stand for so long without the support of the underlying game itself. The true fans and hard core players that dump several hundred hours into the game have moved beyond the concept and are now looking at the game itself: its features, its mechanics, its polish, etc. These are your competitive players, players who want to take the game to the next level.

    So when one of those is completely changed and flipped on its head 9 months after release (mechanics) while the other two are consistently made worse with every consecutive patch (polish & features) it really doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence in the game or its developers. Every patch we get from TB makes this game run worse. I’ve not yet seen them fix a problem without creating another, and some of the things they choose to implement or change about the game are so mind numbingly stupid it makes me wonder how they created the base game in the first place.

    The concept was enough for me to make almost a years worth of videos, which is a testament to how awesome of a concept Chivalry has/had going for it, but the underlying game is rotten, with several bugs, glitches, unoptimization, retarded balance and piss poor polish, not to mention the several developer mistakes committed by TB during the games lifespan. Outside of a miracle patch, there’s not much that would bring me back to Chivalry.



  • @HEXEN:

    Outside of a miracle patch, there’s not much that would bring me back to Chivalry.

    For some reason I still have fun playing C:MW, but it’s not the same, not even close. Let me put it this way, I played ONLY C:MW for nearly a year. Patch hits and slowly I start to play other games (Yes I’m still playing chiv a lot, but I’m a Chiv nut). The fact that I’m playing other games says something. I went off on a tangent there; now about your quote… I would love for a miracle patch to happen, and my question is, why not? I understand a company picks a direction they want to take a game, then they stick to their guns, but what’s the harm? Could you really lose more players undoing the July patch than have been lost in the past few months as a result of that same patch? The way I see it, TBS has everything to gain and nothing to lose by undoing the June/July patch (w/e). :|



  • Torn Banner shouldn’t have been listening to a bunch of lunatic weirdos for the designing of ZE PATCH OF APOCALYPSE OF DOOM OHNOZIQUIT!!! Why should they listen to another bunch of lunatic weirdos now?



  • @parkrangerstan:

    For some reason I still have fun playing C:MW, but it’s not the same, not even close. Let me put it this way, I played ONLY C:MW for nearly a year. Patch hits and slowly I start to play other games (Yes I’m still playing chiv a lot, but I’m a Chiv nut). The fact that I’m playing other games says something. I went off on a tangent there; now about your quote… I would love for a miracle patch to happen, and my question is, why not? I understand a company picks a direction they want to take a game, then they stick to their guns, but what’s the harm? Could you really lose more players undoing the July patch than have been lost in the past few months as a result of that same patch? The way I see it, TBS has everything to gain and nothing to lose by undoing the June/July patch (w/e). :|

    I seriously doubt they’d change the game back. You have a whole slew of new players who found the game after they changed everything and are oblivious. It’s also obvious at this point, that TB aren’t very deft at developing solid updates.

    At this point, it is what it is I think. I can tell you still love this game, just through your posting and the few times we’ve talked. As I said, the concept is still solid, and there are still things to like about this game for sure. But when you describe this game to someone new, or perhaps one of your friends, do you honestly mention shit like the customization or how fantastically the game has grown and improved?

    I’m guessing you mention the combat, melee combat in a virtual environment. I’m guessing you mention the maps and how you get to burn houses and kill peasants for objectives. Perhaps you mention the weapons, or the different classes, but certainly not how they’re balanced :P

    When I describe this game to people, I’m mentioning the SAME things that were good about it a year ago. THESE are the things TB, for some reason, strayed from. We only have 5 TO maps and the melee combat has been butchered, so to speak. They took their biggest selling point and feature, changed it, and then neglected to make more maps, except Citadel, which ran so poorly on most peoples machines that it emptied servers when it initially showed up in the rotation.

    I wanted MORE out of this game. I wanted new things to like about it, things that could build on what was already there. I wanted smoother gameplay, more optimization, less bugs, more content. I instead got the reverse of that.

    Imagine for a second if they had expanded on their combat mechanic instead of limiting it: They could introduce a new starting idle position, like La Poste Di Falcone as seen in the film Kingdom of Heaven. (Awesome avatar btw :P You better have the Directors cut of that movie because the theatrical was butchered by the studio)

    This posture would give you access to different overhead strikes, maybe a bit quicker, but at the cost of very lengthy slash strikes, or perhaps lengthy combos when using slash strikes. Or just something, I don’t know. Expand on what makes the game unique, don’t ignore and butcher it.

    Oh well, I more than got my value out of the game, even if it isn’t to my liking now. It wasn’t a bad run while it lasted, but I thought it could have been so much more.



  • @Dr:

    This is what’s called “push polling” where the questions asked lead to the desired answers. I think the responses here are fairly accurate though.

    It’s not push polling its a legitimate question because thats exactly what happend.

    Oh well why am i even telling you this, your one of the few retards who actually defend the bubble so i doubt you would understand.



  • @Toll:

    I play chiv a fair bit still.

    It is a game I keep coming back to.

    The Bubble patch sucked, well some of it did, some was OK. Removal of CFTP, adding the bubble to try and prevent facehugging plus some other bits and pieces removed complexity from the game. It made it easier to learn.
    In the attached image I try and illustrate the learning curve of a game.

    Ideally you don’t want your learning curve leveling out. Unfortunately Chiv’s learning curve starts to level out comparatively early when compared to games like Dota. More weapons/maps/mechanics/classes and so on extend the learning curve and can also alter the shape. Different people like different phases of a curve.

    In Dota for instance, the intial learning curve is steep, most can agree on that. Many people do not like that brutal beginning. Many persists though because after that curve it becomes reasonable and far more enjoyable, there friends get them through it and give reason to push past the initial learning.

    Chiv on the other hand starts of simple. Pick any waepon and LMB it and you are bound to get kills and voices are easy to do maps are straight forward. Easy fun, then after a small bit of time you start learning the mechanics better, the complexity increases at a fairly reasonable rate. However it doesn’t take all that long to learn that each weapon is mechanically the same. LMB/Overhead/Stab they are just different speeds/ranges. So once you learn the maps better, you learn the different attacks, learn to parry/block reasonably and the different classes your learning curve starts to level out.
    What you have left are the deeper mechanics, stabbing around shields, effective dragging, good feinting, better grasp of weapon speeds and ranges.
    The problem here is, no new maps, no new classes, no new weapons. All the low hanging learning fruit is GONE and no more coming. Then CFTP for instance is taken away, CFTP was an advanced skill, well placed in the curve to keep learning at a reasonable pace, it is gone though.
    The Bubble came in, this reduces the finer skills needed to parry/block/manage close players. Another lowering of the curve.

    I would wager, a large percentage of players don’t like the phase of the curve that is flattened out, the area the requires spending more time then previous to learn less skill (this is the art of perfecting skills). So by not adding new content AND removing late phase learning A LARGE majority of players have no incentive to continue playing.

    Sweet graph but you should have taken something like Quake Live instead of Dota 2 really :P



  • 1) What would you say is the biggest reason you don’t play chivalry as much as you did say a few months ago?

    The 3.4 GB patch that did nothing except show how incompetent the developers are at optimisation.

    2) Would you say the game got overly simplified/boring?

    No. I laugh in the face of people who cry about the fundamental aspects of the game. A few balance tweaks and things will be fine. Oh and perhaps even revert the sabre nerf they did a few months ago that added wind up time and damage.

    Signed… Supreme Dalek.
    Credentials: Has RK | Despair on farm. (one of your interviewees).
    10000 total standard duels with high win ratio.
    Lots of old mode duels with decent win ratio.



  • 1) What would you say is the biggest reason you don’t play chivalry as much as you did say a few months ago?

    I go through phases just like everyone else. My phase right now is back to mostly dota games. I’m also anticipating Wildstar as my next phase.

    2) Would you say the game got overly simplified/boring?

    Nope; the game itself is still fun, and it was already a simple game. The only boring part is the dwindling competitive scene and/or lack of support for said scene.

    –-----

    Skooma is definitely on point… loaded question.

    Also @ Toll, – the curve for dota is definitely more of a very steep ramp-up in the beginning (opposite of what you have), and then plateaus afterward.




  • PRE-PATCH

    VS.


    POST-PATCH



  • **1) What would you say is the biggest reason you don’t play chivalry as much as you did say a few months ago?
    **
    There is not necessarily one single reason. The reason_s_ include the fact that pubs are no fun anymore: between the bad quality of servers, low server population, and the people inside of them, pubs while alone have zero appeal. When I am not pubbing (assuming I actually pub often) I am in either scrims or tournaments, and unfortunately 90% of all of those are on eastern servers, so those are almost never enjoyable either. The only joy I can timelessly get out of this game is screwing around and dueling with friends, provided they themselves aren’t at that moment pissed off at the game.

    2) Would you say the game got overly simplified/boring?

    Generally speaking I would say yes to both, considering everything I said in my last answer and the fact that there is almost nothing new, content or game wise (I will address DW as a game when it becomes one).



  • @CRUSHED:

    @Dr:

    This is what’s called “push polling” where the questions asked lead to the desired answers. I think the responses here are fairly accurate though.

    It’s not push polling its a legitimate question because thats exactly what happend.

    Oh well why am i even telling you this, your one of the few retards who actually defend the bubble so i doubt you would understand.

    Insulting people who have differing opinions again are you?


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