Problems with the competitive scene survey



  • @parkrangerstan:

    @Retsnom:

    You are the exception and not the rule. Most casual players leave or drop the hours of playing after about 3 months because they realize that the game is broken, simple, frustrating and has little more to offer. Dumbing down the game has been the consistent theme with the devs and what I say is proven in the player stats over the long run. The majority of players that originally bought the game at release are gone do to dev decisions and all the reasons already mentioned over and over in the many threads.

    It doesn’t matter how little or how much you play the game lol. Both types of players pay the same price for the product in the beginning, so in their eyes, you’re equal. However, casual players make up the majority of players that play the game. So based on that notion, we can infer that the casual players generate more revenue, simply because they have greater numbers. It’s simple. It’s not like a player who has 1000 hours is contributing more money than a player that has 100hrs. The only conclusion we can draw from that example is that the player with 1000 hours is getting more out of the game. More bang for the buck. And, am I all of a sudden contributing more money because I play competitively? Or less because I quit the competitive scene? Hell no. The majority of CASUAL players who’ve left the game are gone because TBS couldn’t patch their game efficiently. The majority of COMPETITIVE players are gone because of the June patch that ruined the game. I think it’s also unfair to say that the core players consist of only competitive players. There are many other players that are core players that don’t play competitively. So in general, I would say it’s the core players (including non-competitive players) that are keeping the game alive…not a game that is relying on a dying competitive scene to keep the game alive; as you paint the picture.

    You have some valid points but your are putting words in my mouth. I never said that the core players are only competitive players. The base is made up of competitive players and fanboys like yourself. If the Devs keep pissing us off the game is dead unless they whore themselves out at $6 bucks a pop which is what they are doing. But the competitive players are the ones coffing up a lot more money over they years that the freeloaders that reap the benefit of their expenses. When they leave the game goes belly up like AOC with only a handfull of servers.

    I get what you are saying I just think you are under estimating the influence of the competitive scene and what happens when you dont listen to their complaints because they know thier game better than they do.



  • @giantyak:

    Get over your self man,
    I’m looking from a holistic view of what we started with and what we have now. Sure there’s lots of bugs that could be fixed and the game could be optimised better, but over all the game IS better now, and there are far few problems now then before.
    There is nothing you can say will change that truth.

    Again these are your opinions not facts. Far too many players that still post and that have left will say the game was far better before. You are so blinded by your fanboyism that you cannot see that for every one fix they have a record of breaking three more. The fact is that you get used to eating the turd sandwich and just accepting the bugs it that you cannot see all the crap you are eating.

    How fucking sad that they released a hotfix with no warning or information. Again it wipes out all my custom user INI configs and keybinds. Just once I would love to see a patch that doesn’t wipe me out. In this case, deleted the main game menu. Oh the scenery is there but I cannot even exit out because all the menu buttons are gone.

    Then I go and validate the integrity of the game cache and I get: 690 files failed to validate……

    Please tell me how the game is better?



  • @Retsnom:

    …Again these are your opinions not facts. Far too many players that still post and that have left will say the game was far better before. You are so blinded by your fanboyism that you cannot see that for every one fix they have a record of breaking three more. The fact is that you get used to eating the turd sandwich and just accepting the bugs it that you cannot see all the crap you are eating.

    How fucking sad that they released a hotfix with no warning or information. Again it wipes out all my custom user INI configs and keybinds. Just once I would love to see a patch that doesn’t wipe me out. In this case, deleted the main game menu. Oh the scenery is there but I cannot even exit out because all the menu buttons are gone.

    Then I go and validate the integrity of the game cache and I get: 690 files failed to validate…

    Please tell me how the game is better?

    No actually i think its facts and not just opinion. If you were to get a tally of the problems in the inital version of the game and compare it to now i think you’d find the game now has less problems.

    That said many of the self professed ‘high level’ ‘competitive’ players became very upset when some problems were fixed. Such as being able to mash your face into your opponents crouch and slash away at their feet for neigh unblockable hits. But oh doing such a thing made you so LEET OMG….

    A good player adapts, others cry and quit. I’m glad you haven’t quit though and good luck with your ini.



  • @Retsnom:

    @parkrangerstan:

    @Retsnom:

    You are the exception and not the rule. Most casual players leave or drop the hours of playing after about 3 months because they realize that the game is broken, simple, frustrating and has little more to offer. Dumbing down the game has been the consistent theme with the devs and what I say is proven in the player stats over the long run. The majority of players that originally bought the game at release are gone do to dev decisions and all the reasons already mentioned over and over in the many threads.

    It doesn’t matter how little or how much you play the game lol. Both types of players pay the same price for the product in the beginning, so in their eyes, you’re equal. However, casual players make up the majority of players that play the game. So based on that notion, we can infer that the casual players generate more revenue, simply because they have greater numbers. It’s simple. It’s not like a player who has 1000 hours is contributing more money than a player that has 100hrs. The only conclusion we can draw from that example is that the player with 1000 hours is getting more out of the game. More bang for the buck. And, am I all of a sudden contributing more money because I play competitively? Or less because I quit the competitive scene? Hell no. The majority of CASUAL players who’ve left the game are gone because TBS couldn’t patch their game efficiently. The majority of COMPETITIVE players are gone because of the June patch that ruined the game. I think it’s also unfair to say that the core players consist of only competitive players. There are many other players that are core players that don’t play competitively. So in general, I would say it’s the core players (including non-competitive players) that are keeping the game alive…not a game that is relying on a dying competitive scene to keep the game alive; as you paint the picture.

    You have some valid points but your are putting words in my mouth. I never said that the core players are only competitive players. The base is made up of competitive players and fanboys like yourself. If the Devs keep pissing us off the game is dead unless they whore themselves out at $6 bucks a pop which is what they are doing.

    I get what you are saying I just think you are under estimating the influence of the competitive scene and what happens when you dont listen to their complaints because they know thier game better than they do.

    I’m just going to put it as straight as possible. The casual players are the “core” of the player base and the majority. However, as I stated above, I believe the competitive scene plays a very important role; but that role means nothing if the core players aren’t satisfied; because they account most of the revenue. Once the game finds success and stability, a competitive scene can grow. At this point, the competitive scene can really make a game take off in popularity. Chivalry reached that part in it’s life right before the June patch, despite a shaky tournament. Then the dreaded patch hit and it greatly diminished participation in the competitive scene. Stan feeling angry >.< But the “patch” didn’t have the same effect on the game as a whole (as many angry competitive players would love to believe). Many new players found the game easier, many newish players embraced the changes; the overall player base(mostly casual players) had already been exponentially decaying for months prior to the patch and this exact same pattern continued after the patch; unaffected for the most part. From then on out, the competitive scene slowly died, then plateaued to where it is now; pretty quite, but not quite dead. As far as the overall player base, which consists mostly of casual players; the player base population has ceased decaying and appears to have plateaued at this point.

    @Retsnom:

    But the competitive players are the ones coffing up a lot more money over they years that the freeloaders that reap the benefit of their expenses. When they leave the game goes belly up like AOC with only a handfull of servers.

    In WHAT way do competitive players “cough up” more money “over the years”? And who are the freeloaders that reap the benefits?

    Everyone pays a one-time purchasing fee to buy the game, competitive player or not. I just want you to explain to me how the title of being a “competitive” player all of a sudden means you’ve given more money out of thin air, and who’s free loading off of it? lol The closest thing I can come up with to explain what you might mean is the kickstarter; but that has nothing to do with being competitive. I’m not sure what you’re saying makes sense. Please clarify. The fact is, given that every player buys the game, competitive player or casual, each contributes the same amount of revenue as an individual. NOW, when you consider that casual players are the majority, then you’re understand why tbs caters to them and why they are taking this game in the direction they are. It’s money money money.



  • Here’s my little tidbit for thought:

    I was a competitive player in Chivalry. I purchased the game 14 times and donated a rather large sum to the last cash prize tournament. I also made videos about the game, and while my memory isn’t the greatest, I’ve at least seen 10 comments by users across my library stating my videos are what sold them on the game.

    So I’ve probably equaled close to 50-60 game purchases for TB. Granted, not all my endeavors with this title were geared towards competitive play, but it’s certainly what kept me around so long.



  • As I said previously they are close with unknown world’s entertainment developers of NS2 who are indie developers too with a small team, probably smaller than Torn Banner but they cater to both new, veteran and competitive players.

    Both companies have over 1 million sales iirc but NS2 has more of a community that likes them since they communicate and update Very often.

    "HUGH “STRAYAN” JEREMY
    Hugh is Australian, but we try not to hold it against him. He attended the University of New South Wales and received a BCom in Finance and Accounting. For a while, he applied these skills in a big office tower. Wanting a change, he decided to fly across the Pacific Ocean to play video games and make movies all day.

    Now he handles our PR, community events, outreach and any other task that doesn’t quite fit into anyone else’s role.

    Some of Hugh’s other official duties around the office include gardening, interior design and carpentry."

    They also have a previous title so the have vets from that game so I they should be ale to do the same to attract let us know what they are aiming for.

    Edit: as with above poster, I’ve spent at least £200 on copies for friends and clan members All of which have given the same issues that need to be addressed in order for the game to be as fun as age of chivalry and previous patches.



  • @HEXEN:

    Here’s my little tidbit for thought:

    I was a competitive player in Chivalry. I purchased the game 14 times and donated a rather large sum to the last cash prize tournament. I also made videos about the game, and while my memory isn’t the greatest, I’ve at least seen 10 comments by users across my library stating my videos are what sold them on the game.

    So I’ve probably equaled close to 50-60 game purchases for TB. Granted, not all my endeavors with this title were geared towards competitive play, but it’s certainly what kept me around so long.

    Let me start off by saying I love the content you provide, and it’s all a great influence on the community. However, Hexen, you’re pretty much the only competitive player who’s done that. (Sure some make videos here and there, including myself, but not like you have). You also need to realize that your videos are bringing in CASUAL players, making the majority even bigger. It’s sort of a paradox. You want to bring in fresh new players to breathe life into the game, yet these new casuals are the same people that will advocate to change the game into something you DON’T WANT it to be. It really is a double-edged sword. The aspect of your videos that I appreciate the most is the content that shows players how mechanics work, why certain mechanics should be used, and when. This kind of content NEEDS to be seen by new players. It really would explain to them why they seemingly can’t parry, or any other issue they think is a broken mechanic, but is rather a mechanic they don’t understand. Your content might influence a few people to buy the game by showcasing how great the game is, and in turn, spark interest in the game; but it’s no match for a sale or free weekend, which would bring in nearly the same amount of revenue regardless of your videos (obviously). I really like your videos a lot, I’m a subscriber and have probably seen every Chivalry video. I’ve even been lucky enough to appear in one by accident as well lol :D (I was playing as “PDX | Alcohol” in one of your fairly recent gameplay videos; drunk of course ^.^).

    So in short, I’m basically saying the shear number of casual players buying the game because of a sale or a free weekend as the motive far out sells any purchases you may have influenced or any other competitive players combined. This isn’t to say your content hasn’t helped this game, that’s not at all what I’m saying, let’s be clear. I’m just speaking in general business terms here. I would like to wrap this up by saying anyone who hasn’t seen Hexen’s videos (new or vet player), should watch them. They’re very entertaining and informative; the best combat help guides I’ve seen for this game.

    Hexen, we need to make you get like 800k views/video so that you can save this game man xD Seriously, every new player should be forced to watch his mechanics videos. Let me just say, if every new player HAD watched Hexen’s videos, the June patch wouldn’t have changed the game as it did. Too bad. It’s funny, the casual player majority essentially ruined the game for the hardcore competitive player minority. “If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.”



  • @parkrangerstan:

    @HEXEN:

    Here’s my little tidbit for thought:

    I was a competitive player in Chivalry. I purchased the game 14 times and donated a rather large sum to the last cash prize tournament. I also made videos about the game, and while my memory isn’t the greatest, I’ve at least seen 10 comments by users across my library stating my videos are what sold them on the game.

    So I’ve probably equaled close to 50-60 game purchases for TB. Granted, not all my endeavors with this title were geared towards competitive play, but it’s certainly what kept me around so long.

    That’s awesome, but you’re pretty much the only player who’s done that. Competitive or not. We’re speaking in general.

    donating probably, but getting new players in, buying for friends, making videos, no, not the only one, there are Many people.



  • @Saraski:

    @parkrangerstan:

    That’s awesome, but you’re pretty much the only player who’s done that. Competitive or not. We’re speaking in general.

    donating probably, but getting new players in, buying for friends, making videos, no, not the only one, there are Many people.

    Again Park, you are wrong on this one. Every clan leader and most officers and thier players have purchased many copies, made videos, posted on facebook, paid for servers, teamspeak servers, clan websites not to mention all the free stuff we do to support the community. Personally, I have spent a few thousand on hosting servers since 2005 in Age of Chivalry keeping that mod alive till Chiv came out. I have probably sold at least 50 copies if not a few hundred or more to all my friends on steam and clan members that were leary of Chiv because they were all to familure with TBs history of shotty development. Trust me there are far more than you think that have spent a lot of money to support this game.

    Now you have us working hard with mods and custom map. Look at all my tech support pages. These are all done for free but they take time. Lots of frustrating time. If time is money, where is my money? As far as the freeloaders go, these are the casual players that like to play on out servers because they like how we run them. They could be playing on Official servers but they choose clan servers like mine and Interitus Duels and the many more. It is not that we really mind at all because we actually promote the game at our expense.



  • Well, I disagree with you. I think revenue from sales and free weekends as motives far out weigh any purchases the competitive players might have influenced. Also, you’re not accounting for all of the purchases casual players might have influenced. So many casual players that buy the game recommend it to friends, just as you said competitive players do. However, given there’s WAY more casual players than competitive players, there’s a lot more casual recommendations. And actually, if you consider the the videos made by non-competitive Chivalry players, Total Biscuit, for example, this only reinforces my argument that the competitive scene is not the lifeline of this community, but merely a facet that is very beneficial to the community. OH, and you said “Again Park, you are wrong on this one”. Please, let’s not hand out verdicts without any hard evidence, k thx.

    Good day :D



  • @parkrangerstan:

    Well, I disagree with you. I think revenue from sales and free weekends as motives far out weighs any purchases the competitive players might have influenced. Also, you’re not accounting for all of the purchases casual players might have influenced. So many casual players that buy the game recommend it to friends, just as you said competitive players do. However, given there’s WAY more casual players than competitive players, there’s a lot more casual recommendations. And actually, if you consider the the videos made by non-competitive Chivalry players, Total Biscuit, for example, this only reinforces my argument that the competitive scene is not the lifeline of this community, but merely a facet that is very beneficial to the community. OH, and you said “Again Park, you are wrong on this one”. Please, let’s not hand out verdicts without any hard evidence, k thx.

    Good day :D

    technically you said that even the competitive players didnt bring anyone / influence anyone by paying anything because everyone paid the same amount in your previous posts.

    Total Biscuit plays everything, he was critical of Chivalry and some of the stuff in the video he said needed fixing are still waiting to be fixed lol.

    Competitive is not the Only lifeline, but the game is built on competitive gameplay, as in people play the game to win in LTS, FFA, TDM, Objective, Whatever it may be, some will play it competitive with friends and / or against other clans.

    What we are saying is that it doesn’t matter how many of the videos that re made that bring in people, if Torn Banner can’t be bothered to communicate or even post in these threads, or have their “community managers” or whoever they hire / want to speak on their behalf voluntarily", then they aren’t ganna keep their new players, they will move on.

    Torn Banner have a habbit of not communicating with everyone, they only seem to communicate on a very small level, Age of Chivalry was few members of RK, Vq, and I can’t remember what slygoat and wingy were in but thats 3 of many that knew SOMETHING which no one else knew.

    They need to communicate on a whole, not just between themselves.

    If you take a look at NS2, when Total biscuit did a video of that, he increased sales 100x of the game, of which the developers communicated, when he did it for this, they didn’t say anything, they told us they hit 1 million copies fair enough, but even so they didn’t exactly post themselves, it was the community that alerted them to videos from well known people, even after they’ve talked / been interviewed with them when showing off the game beforehand, like Total Biscuit playing Deadliest Warrior.

    Nothing was really mentioned about that, but he made the vid and showed off a lot in the game itself, doing what the developers didn’t.

    This game has the potential to make it high in the Competitive Scene with Developers who communicate with their community and companies wanting to represent the game via competitions, such as Esports did (which seems to of died out, could of been great too).

    NS2 gets thousands of views on twitch for its competitive scene etc but this gets Very little, Competitive scenes can bring in thousands of players even if its just to play and not compete in tournaments…

    TLDR: Competitive Scene brings in a lot of People and players will donate more and Communication brings in More.



  • @Saraski:

    @parkrangerstan:

    Well, I disagree with you. I think revenue from sales and free weekends as motives far out weighs any purchases the competitive players might have influenced. Also, you’re not accounting for all of the purchases casual players might have influenced. So many casual players that buy the game recommend it to friends, just as you said competitive players do. However, given there’s WAY more casual players than competitive players, there’s a lot more casual recommendations. And actually, if you consider the the videos made by non-competitive Chivalry players, Total Biscuit, for example, this only reinforces my argument that the competitive scene is not the lifeline of this community, but merely a facet that is very beneficial to the community. OH, and you said “Again Park, you are wrong on this one”. Please, let’s not hand out verdicts without any hard evidence, k thx.

    Good day :D

    @Saraski:

    technically you said that even the competitive players didnt bring anyone / influence anyone by paying anything because everyone paid the same amount in your previous posts.

    My point was that, individually, your title doesn’t change how much revenue you generate for tbs. Most comp. players are just casual players with skill LOL and anyone can contribute to the game. I’m speaking about demographics. My overall point is that, while competitive players might know what’s best for the game, they still make up a minority of the playerbase, both physically and by the amount of revenue they generate; despite being very influential. Remember, this is coming from someone who’s played 1500+ of his 1900 hours “competitively”, so I feel for the competitive scene. Nevertheless, I can’t ignore logic; competitive players likely only make up 1% of the playerbase (and that’s probably a VERY generous estimate). So it’s not hard to believe why casual players generate more revenue xD TBS knows it too, and their business decisions reflect that.

    @Saraski:

    Total Biscuit plays everything, he was critical of Chivalry and some of the stuff in the video he said needed fixing are still waiting to be fixed lol.

    A lot of people play other games besides chiv, including myself. Total Biscuit’s video comparing Chivalry to War of the Roses was a huge victory for C:MW; he concluded that C:MW was the better overall medieval combat experience. That video received over 500k views; made by a casual C:MW player. Much of the content on youtube that is related to this game isn’t by competitive players, maybe even most of it if you go by views alone. If you want to fix the competitive scene, then fuck the June patch.



  • @Saraski:

    @parkrangerstan:

    @HEXEN:

    Here’s my little tidbit for thought:

    I was a competitive player in Chivalry. I purchased the game 14 times and donated a rather large sum to the last cash prize tournament. I also made videos about the game, and while my memory isn’t the greatest, I’ve at least seen 10 comments by users across my library stating my videos are what sold them on the game.

    So I’ve probably equaled close to 50-60 game purchases for TB. Granted, not all my endeavors with this title were geared towards competitive play, but it’s certainly what kept me around so long.

    That’s awesome, but you’re pretty much the only player who’s done that. Competitive or not. We’re speaking in general.

    donating probably, but getting new players in, buying for friends, making videos, no, not the only one, there are Many people.

    Lots of casual players buy the game for friends. I know a casual player that bought like 8 copies lol. Personally I’ve bought the game twice, I make videos, and I recommend the game to others. I’ve gotten a few people into the game. And the fact that I play competitively has nothing to do with it.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    It’s sort of a paradox. You want to bring in fresh new players to breathe life into the game, yet these new casuals are the same people that will advocate to change the game into something you DON’T WANT it to be.

    Hexen has contributed more to the game than anyone else in my opinion. His videos were the best and just added to the level of enthusiasm for the game. TBS should have given him a special award, but that is not their style.

    @parkrangerstan:

    the casual player majority essentially ruined the game for the hardcore competitive player minority.

    While you have some valid points e.g. casual players bring in the most revenue. You are so far off base with that supposition.

    Any developer, in any line of business can tell the difference between an informed opinion and a noob opinion. Do you think Microsoft tailored Office based upon first time users or power users?

    TBS changed the game based upon the overall feedback. Competitive players serve a purpose - entertainment, identification of issues that are apparent after playing 700+ hours.

    However if the competitive players had their way the skill ceiling would be so high that they could slaughter noobs 50 to 1 without blinking an eye. And that is a unfriendly game which reminds me of MMO’s which allowed TKing by super powered rogues who had put in enough hours to gain the top tier weapons and armor (Aion).

    I think CMW is fine, sure some bugs, sure it is lacking in content, maybe the SDK will fill the gap but even my original estimation was optimistic.



  • If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?



  • @Retsnom:

    If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?

    Because it is a niche game that is not nearly as polished as mainstream games.

    The concept is great, the initial impression is fantastic but it is still an Indie game.



  • @gregcau:

    @Retsnom:

    If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?

    Because it is a niche game that is not nearly as polished as mainstream games.

    The concept is great, the initial impression is fantastic but it is still an Indie game.

    You realize while some of that is true it is a weak excuse.

    If it truly was a great game, higher numbers would still be playing it. Jesus, people are still playing everquest in greater numbers than Chiv…… hehe



  • Glad to see this post, even if it is just because I’m still sore about the poor balance changes.

    I’ve come to the conclusion balance changes end up in the negative - that is, in the long haul, balance changes are always end up making a game worse in the end than better. I quit playing all my favorite games because they eventually screw up the game with bad patching. Except for 2142, and that’s because they never really touched the balance (which was basically perfect, but I digress)



  • @gregcau:

    @parkrangerstan:

    It’s sort of a paradox. You want to bring in fresh new players to breathe life into the game, yet these new casuals are the same people that will advocate to change the game into something you DON’T WANT it to be.

    @gregcau:

    Hexen has contributed more to the game than anyone else in my opinion. His videos were the best and just added to the level of enthusiasm for the game. TBS should have given him a special award, but that is not their style.

    Mmhmm. I praised Hexen in my reply, and in other threads on this forum. His award was notability, helping many chivalry players, the profits from his videos and my undivided love <3 (which can’t be bought). Try to buy my love gregcau…you can’t.

    @parkrangerstan:

    the casual player majority essentially ruined the game for the hardcore competitive player minority

    @gregcau:

    While you have some valid points e.g. casual players bring in the most revenue. You are so far off base with that supposition.

    Any developer, in any line of business can tell the difference between an informed opinion and a noob opinion. Do you think Microsoft tailored Office based upon first time users or power users?

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.

    I really doubt that that is how it happened. At least that is not the historical MO for dev changes. Historically, major nerfs or mechanic changes were made after the devs kept getting their asses handed to them from skilled competitive players that knew their game better than they did. LOLS just ask me how much got nerfed and changed because of what KILA clan did to the old TB (dev) clan in AOC.

    But if it happened as you say. That is sad and again, another bad choice in development. I would also disagree that the patch passed with support of the casual majority because there was a mass exodus from the game about a month after the patch of both comps and casuals and continued to decline till there was another free whore weekend.


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