Problems with the competitive scene survey



  • @Saraski:

    @parkrangerstan:

    That’s awesome, but you’re pretty much the only player who’s done that. Competitive or not. We’re speaking in general.

    donating probably, but getting new players in, buying for friends, making videos, no, not the only one, there are Many people.

    Again Park, you are wrong on this one. Every clan leader and most officers and thier players have purchased many copies, made videos, posted on facebook, paid for servers, teamspeak servers, clan websites not to mention all the free stuff we do to support the community. Personally, I have spent a few thousand on hosting servers since 2005 in Age of Chivalry keeping that mod alive till Chiv came out. I have probably sold at least 50 copies if not a few hundred or more to all my friends on steam and clan members that were leary of Chiv because they were all to familure with TBs history of shotty development. Trust me there are far more than you think that have spent a lot of money to support this game.

    Now you have us working hard with mods and custom map. Look at all my tech support pages. These are all done for free but they take time. Lots of frustrating time. If time is money, where is my money? As far as the freeloaders go, these are the casual players that like to play on out servers because they like how we run them. They could be playing on Official servers but they choose clan servers like mine and Interitus Duels and the many more. It is not that we really mind at all because we actually promote the game at our expense.



  • Well, I disagree with you. I think revenue from sales and free weekends as motives far out weigh any purchases the competitive players might have influenced. Also, you’re not accounting for all of the purchases casual players might have influenced. So many casual players that buy the game recommend it to friends, just as you said competitive players do. However, given there’s WAY more casual players than competitive players, there’s a lot more casual recommendations. And actually, if you consider the the videos made by non-competitive Chivalry players, Total Biscuit, for example, this only reinforces my argument that the competitive scene is not the lifeline of this community, but merely a facet that is very beneficial to the community. OH, and you said “Again Park, you are wrong on this one”. Please, let’s not hand out verdicts without any hard evidence, k thx.

    Good day :D



  • @parkrangerstan:

    Well, I disagree with you. I think revenue from sales and free weekends as motives far out weighs any purchases the competitive players might have influenced. Also, you’re not accounting for all of the purchases casual players might have influenced. So many casual players that buy the game recommend it to friends, just as you said competitive players do. However, given there’s WAY more casual players than competitive players, there’s a lot more casual recommendations. And actually, if you consider the the videos made by non-competitive Chivalry players, Total Biscuit, for example, this only reinforces my argument that the competitive scene is not the lifeline of this community, but merely a facet that is very beneficial to the community. OH, and you said “Again Park, you are wrong on this one”. Please, let’s not hand out verdicts without any hard evidence, k thx.

    Good day :D

    technically you said that even the competitive players didnt bring anyone / influence anyone by paying anything because everyone paid the same amount in your previous posts.

    Total Biscuit plays everything, he was critical of Chivalry and some of the stuff in the video he said needed fixing are still waiting to be fixed lol.

    Competitive is not the Only lifeline, but the game is built on competitive gameplay, as in people play the game to win in LTS, FFA, TDM, Objective, Whatever it may be, some will play it competitive with friends and / or against other clans.

    What we are saying is that it doesn’t matter how many of the videos that re made that bring in people, if Torn Banner can’t be bothered to communicate or even post in these threads, or have their “community managers” or whoever they hire / want to speak on their behalf voluntarily", then they aren’t ganna keep their new players, they will move on.

    Torn Banner have a habbit of not communicating with everyone, they only seem to communicate on a very small level, Age of Chivalry was few members of RK, Vq, and I can’t remember what slygoat and wingy were in but thats 3 of many that knew SOMETHING which no one else knew.

    They need to communicate on a whole, not just between themselves.

    If you take a look at NS2, when Total biscuit did a video of that, he increased sales 100x of the game, of which the developers communicated, when he did it for this, they didn’t say anything, they told us they hit 1 million copies fair enough, but even so they didn’t exactly post themselves, it was the community that alerted them to videos from well known people, even after they’ve talked / been interviewed with them when showing off the game beforehand, like Total Biscuit playing Deadliest Warrior.

    Nothing was really mentioned about that, but he made the vid and showed off a lot in the game itself, doing what the developers didn’t.

    This game has the potential to make it high in the Competitive Scene with Developers who communicate with their community and companies wanting to represent the game via competitions, such as Esports did (which seems to of died out, could of been great too).

    NS2 gets thousands of views on twitch for its competitive scene etc but this gets Very little, Competitive scenes can bring in thousands of players even if its just to play and not compete in tournaments…

    TLDR: Competitive Scene brings in a lot of People and players will donate more and Communication brings in More.



  • @Saraski:

    @parkrangerstan:

    Well, I disagree with you. I think revenue from sales and free weekends as motives far out weighs any purchases the competitive players might have influenced. Also, you’re not accounting for all of the purchases casual players might have influenced. So many casual players that buy the game recommend it to friends, just as you said competitive players do. However, given there’s WAY more casual players than competitive players, there’s a lot more casual recommendations. And actually, if you consider the the videos made by non-competitive Chivalry players, Total Biscuit, for example, this only reinforces my argument that the competitive scene is not the lifeline of this community, but merely a facet that is very beneficial to the community. OH, and you said “Again Park, you are wrong on this one”. Please, let’s not hand out verdicts without any hard evidence, k thx.

    Good day :D

    @Saraski:

    technically you said that even the competitive players didnt bring anyone / influence anyone by paying anything because everyone paid the same amount in your previous posts.

    My point was that, individually, your title doesn’t change how much revenue you generate for tbs. Most comp. players are just casual players with skill LOL and anyone can contribute to the game. I’m speaking about demographics. My overall point is that, while competitive players might know what’s best for the game, they still make up a minority of the playerbase, both physically and by the amount of revenue they generate; despite being very influential. Remember, this is coming from someone who’s played 1500+ of his 1900 hours “competitively”, so I feel for the competitive scene. Nevertheless, I can’t ignore logic; competitive players likely only make up 1% of the playerbase (and that’s probably a VERY generous estimate). So it’s not hard to believe why casual players generate more revenue xD TBS knows it too, and their business decisions reflect that.

    @Saraski:

    Total Biscuit plays everything, he was critical of Chivalry and some of the stuff in the video he said needed fixing are still waiting to be fixed lol.

    A lot of people play other games besides chiv, including myself. Total Biscuit’s video comparing Chivalry to War of the Roses was a huge victory for C:MW; he concluded that C:MW was the better overall medieval combat experience. That video received over 500k views; made by a casual C:MW player. Much of the content on youtube that is related to this game isn’t by competitive players, maybe even most of it if you go by views alone. If you want to fix the competitive scene, then fuck the June patch.



  • @Saraski:

    @parkrangerstan:

    @HEXEN:

    Here’s my little tidbit for thought:

    I was a competitive player in Chivalry. I purchased the game 14 times and donated a rather large sum to the last cash prize tournament. I also made videos about the game, and while my memory isn’t the greatest, I’ve at least seen 10 comments by users across my library stating my videos are what sold them on the game.

    So I’ve probably equaled close to 50-60 game purchases for TB. Granted, not all my endeavors with this title were geared towards competitive play, but it’s certainly what kept me around so long.

    That’s awesome, but you’re pretty much the only player who’s done that. Competitive or not. We’re speaking in general.

    donating probably, but getting new players in, buying for friends, making videos, no, not the only one, there are Many people.

    Lots of casual players buy the game for friends. I know a casual player that bought like 8 copies lol. Personally I’ve bought the game twice, I make videos, and I recommend the game to others. I’ve gotten a few people into the game. And the fact that I play competitively has nothing to do with it.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    It’s sort of a paradox. You want to bring in fresh new players to breathe life into the game, yet these new casuals are the same people that will advocate to change the game into something you DON’T WANT it to be.

    Hexen has contributed more to the game than anyone else in my opinion. His videos were the best and just added to the level of enthusiasm for the game. TBS should have given him a special award, but that is not their style.

    @parkrangerstan:

    the casual player majority essentially ruined the game for the hardcore competitive player minority.

    While you have some valid points e.g. casual players bring in the most revenue. You are so far off base with that supposition.

    Any developer, in any line of business can tell the difference between an informed opinion and a noob opinion. Do you think Microsoft tailored Office based upon first time users or power users?

    TBS changed the game based upon the overall feedback. Competitive players serve a purpose - entertainment, identification of issues that are apparent after playing 700+ hours.

    However if the competitive players had their way the skill ceiling would be so high that they could slaughter noobs 50 to 1 without blinking an eye. And that is a unfriendly game which reminds me of MMO’s which allowed TKing by super powered rogues who had put in enough hours to gain the top tier weapons and armor (Aion).

    I think CMW is fine, sure some bugs, sure it is lacking in content, maybe the SDK will fill the gap but even my original estimation was optimistic.



  • If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?



  • @Retsnom:

    If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?

    Because it is a niche game that is not nearly as polished as mainstream games.

    The concept is great, the initial impression is fantastic but it is still an Indie game.



  • @gregcau:

    @Retsnom:

    If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?

    Because it is a niche game that is not nearly as polished as mainstream games.

    The concept is great, the initial impression is fantastic but it is still an Indie game.

    You realize while some of that is true it is a weak excuse.

    If it truly was a great game, higher numbers would still be playing it. Jesus, people are still playing everquest in greater numbers than Chiv…… hehe



  • Glad to see this post, even if it is just because I’m still sore about the poor balance changes.

    I’ve come to the conclusion balance changes end up in the negative - that is, in the long haul, balance changes are always end up making a game worse in the end than better. I quit playing all my favorite games because they eventually screw up the game with bad patching. Except for 2142, and that’s because they never really touched the balance (which was basically perfect, but I digress)



  • @gregcau:

    @parkrangerstan:

    It’s sort of a paradox. You want to bring in fresh new players to breathe life into the game, yet these new casuals are the same people that will advocate to change the game into something you DON’T WANT it to be.

    @gregcau:

    Hexen has contributed more to the game than anyone else in my opinion. His videos were the best and just added to the level of enthusiasm for the game. TBS should have given him a special award, but that is not their style.

    Mmhmm. I praised Hexen in my reply, and in other threads on this forum. His award was notability, helping many chivalry players, the profits from his videos and my undivided love <3 (which can’t be bought). Try to buy my love gregcau…you can’t.

    @parkrangerstan:

    the casual player majority essentially ruined the game for the hardcore competitive player minority

    @gregcau:

    While you have some valid points e.g. casual players bring in the most revenue. You are so far off base with that supposition.

    Any developer, in any line of business can tell the difference between an informed opinion and a noob opinion. Do you think Microsoft tailored Office based upon first time users or power users?

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.

    I really doubt that that is how it happened. At least that is not the historical MO for dev changes. Historically, major nerfs or mechanic changes were made after the devs kept getting their asses handed to them from skilled competitive players that knew their game better than they did. LOLS just ask me how much got nerfed and changed because of what KILA clan did to the old TB (dev) clan in AOC.

    But if it happened as you say. That is sad and again, another bad choice in development. I would also disagree that the patch passed with support of the casual majority because there was a mass exodus from the game about a month after the patch of both comps and casuals and continued to decline till there was another free whore weekend.



  • @Retsnom:

    @parkrangerstan:

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.

    I really doubt that that is how it happened. At least that is not the historical MO for dev changes. Historically, major nerfs or mechanic changes were made after the devs kept getting their asses handed to them from skilled competitive players that knew their game better than they did. LOLS just ask me how much got nerfed and changed because of what KILA clan did to the old TB (dev) clan in AOC.

    But if it happened as you say. That is sad and again, another bad choice in development. I would also disagree that the patch passed with support of the casual majority because there was a mass exodus from the game about a month after the patch of both comps and casuals and continued to decline till there was another free whore weekend.

    you’re probably best to list the stuff that was changed, otherwise he won’t understand, anyhow you couldn’t post as much on forums cause of your constant feedback and explaining points, they banned you, same for me lol, just not as long.

    there was a very small group of players influencing the changes for age of chivalry, it was never the masses, they lost a lot of players that way too as well as with the model patches that made it barely possible to play unless you had a REALLY high end pc lol, i got like 30fps max and i had quite a good card.

    Unfortunately though Parkranger, they do have a history of lack of communication and giving false sense / hyping then changing their routes, if you have been around since age of chivalry launch on steam or beforehand then you will know this.

    It’s a good game, because it’s in its niche, they as with most game companies, just forget that their community can’t mind read or see the future, so they start to lose them, they should go take advice from NS2 devs again lol.



  • @Retsnom:

    @parkrangerstan:

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.

    I really doubt that that is how it happened. At least that is not the historical MO for dev changes. Historically, major nerfs or mechanic changes were made after the devs kept getting their asses handed to them from skilled competitive players that knew their game better than they did. LOLS just ask me how much got nerfed and changed because of what KILA clan did to the old TB (dev) clan in AOC.

    But if it happened as you say. That is sad and again, another bad choice in development. I would also disagree that the patch passed with support of the casual majority because there was a mass exodus from the game about a month after the patch of both comps and casuals and continued to decline till there was another free whore weekend.

    Good points. I would also like to point out that a large part of both of our arguments is “speculation” or theory as why things are the way they are. So it’s largely opinion; no right or wrong in most cases.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    Good points. I would also like to point out that a large part of both of our arguments is “speculation” or theory as why things are the way they are. So it’s largely opinion; no right or wrong in most cases.

    Not speculation, fact. The nerfing of AOC by the devs was in direct response from what we did in game and to their clan and so many others prior to CR1. That is fact not speculation. CR2 was also similar to the bubble patch in that they nerfed tactics by changing the game mechanics and redid entire maps because of what I personally did with the chandeliers in monistary and many other maps. There is an entire list of things that were removed readjusted and tweaked because of the tactics we employed. If the old forums were up and running I prove it too you. There is a reason why you only get 1 fire pot or 2 smoke pots instead of your choice of either and 3 of them, reasons why the catapults were severely nerfed, why certain classes have always been nerfed along with them even nerfing and removing half a map because of how we used it.

    That is the truth my friend rather you like it or not. Hit me up in TeamSpeak and I will tell you the details and there are many.



  • @Retsnom:

    @parkrangerstan:

    Good points. I would also like to point out that a large part of both of our arguments is “speculation” or theory as why things are the way they are. So it’s largely opinion; no right or wrong in most cases.

    Not speculation, fact. The nerfing of AOC by the devs was in direct response from what we did in game and to their clan and so many others prior to CR1. That is fact not speculation. CR2 was also similar to the bubble patch in that they nerfed tactics by changing the game mechanics and redid entire maps because of what I personally did with the chandeliers in monistary and many other maps. There is an entire list of things that were removed readjusted and tweaked because of the tactics we employed. If the old forums were up and running I prove it too you. There is a reason why you only get 1 fire pot or 2 smoke pots instead of your choice of either and 3 of them, reasons why the catapults were severely nerfed, why certain classes have always been nerfed along with them even nerfing and removing half a map because of how we used it.

    That is the truth my friend rather you like it or not. Hit me up in TeamSpeak and I will tell you the details and there are many.

    I said part…



  • Actually the june patch didnt just fuck up the competitive scene, but also some pub players gameplay who relied on punishing missed swings / ducking etc and stuff like that that worked in pubs.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Actually the june patch didnt just fuck up the competitive scene, but also some pub players gameplay who relied on punishing missed swings / ducking etc and stuff like that that worked in pubs.

    Well, yes. However the patch was the primary reason for the collapse of the competitive scene. Sure, others who would be considered “casual players” resented the changes, but it had the most impact by far on the competitive scene.



  • If I recall correctly, many competitive players were on board with re-balancing the game in some aspect. As long as changes were cautious, thoroughly tested, and basically didn’t fuck up the game competitively people were happy to look for ways and compromises to make the game more fun to learn to play.

    The problem wasn’t that a good balance for competitive and casual players couldn’t be found - TBS didn’t ever really try to do this. It was that they rushed a largely untested patch despite knowledgeable players pointing out flaws and urging for further testing.

    The patch introduced many things that I think are actually generally disliked. For example, I think right now most people who have experience playing pre-patch dislike the bubble and things like panic parry. It just took more casual players much longer to figure it out. Of course, it killed the competitive scene basically instantly because those guys already knew it was a bad patch.

    Maybe I’m biased, but that’s my view of it. Generally, for most players, it was a bad (or undecided) patch. Unfortunately both TBS and a large amount of certain casual players (who have strangely since disappeared from the forums) didn’t seem to value the insight that experienced players could give, probably because most people got into their head that good players simply cheated by using exploits and were just whining because they were fixed. I think the worst part about it is that it seems TBS were part of those people too.



  • I remember saying before the June patch hit, that I thought the game was more balanced than it had ever been, and that TBS will likely just F everything up by making changes (I’m not exactly a minority either lol). What scared me the most at the time was the fact that the patch was supposedly going to make drastic changes…and I thought, oh no :(


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