Problems with the competitive scene survey



  • @Saraski:

    @parkrangerstan:

    @HEXEN:

    Here’s my little tidbit for thought:

    I was a competitive player in Chivalry. I purchased the game 14 times and donated a rather large sum to the last cash prize tournament. I also made videos about the game, and while my memory isn’t the greatest, I’ve at least seen 10 comments by users across my library stating my videos are what sold them on the game.

    So I’ve probably equaled close to 50-60 game purchases for TB. Granted, not all my endeavors with this title were geared towards competitive play, but it’s certainly what kept me around so long.

    That’s awesome, but you’re pretty much the only player who’s done that. Competitive or not. We’re speaking in general.

    donating probably, but getting new players in, buying for friends, making videos, no, not the only one, there are Many people.

    Lots of casual players buy the game for friends. I know a casual player that bought like 8 copies lol. Personally I’ve bought the game twice, I make videos, and I recommend the game to others. I’ve gotten a few people into the game. And the fact that I play competitively has nothing to do with it.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    It’s sort of a paradox. You want to bring in fresh new players to breathe life into the game, yet these new casuals are the same people that will advocate to change the game into something you DON’T WANT it to be.

    Hexen has contributed more to the game than anyone else in my opinion. His videos were the best and just added to the level of enthusiasm for the game. TBS should have given him a special award, but that is not their style.

    @parkrangerstan:

    the casual player majority essentially ruined the game for the hardcore competitive player minority.

    While you have some valid points e.g. casual players bring in the most revenue. You are so far off base with that supposition.

    Any developer, in any line of business can tell the difference between an informed opinion and a noob opinion. Do you think Microsoft tailored Office based upon first time users or power users?

    TBS changed the game based upon the overall feedback. Competitive players serve a purpose - entertainment, identification of issues that are apparent after playing 700+ hours.

    However if the competitive players had their way the skill ceiling would be so high that they could slaughter noobs 50 to 1 without blinking an eye. And that is a unfriendly game which reminds me of MMO’s which allowed TKing by super powered rogues who had put in enough hours to gain the top tier weapons and armor (Aion).

    I think CMW is fine, sure some bugs, sure it is lacking in content, maybe the SDK will fill the gap but even my original estimation was optimistic.



  • If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?



  • @Retsnom:

    If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?

    Because it is a niche game that is not nearly as polished as mainstream games.

    The concept is great, the initial impression is fantastic but it is still an Indie game.



  • @gregcau:

    @Retsnom:

    If C:MW is fine then were are all the millions of players that bought the game? Why is there constantly around 10% of buyers actually playing the game? I get the numbers game. The idea is to get more of the average gamers to buy the game. But what is the incentive to buy or even keep playing once you get past the hype?

    Because it is a niche game that is not nearly as polished as mainstream games.

    The concept is great, the initial impression is fantastic but it is still an Indie game.

    You realize while some of that is true it is a weak excuse.

    If it truly was a great game, higher numbers would still be playing it. Jesus, people are still playing everquest in greater numbers than Chiv…… hehe



  • Glad to see this post, even if it is just because I’m still sore about the poor balance changes.

    I’ve come to the conclusion balance changes end up in the negative - that is, in the long haul, balance changes are always end up making a game worse in the end than better. I quit playing all my favorite games because they eventually screw up the game with bad patching. Except for 2142, and that’s because they never really touched the balance (which was basically perfect, but I digress)



  • @gregcau:

    @parkrangerstan:

    It’s sort of a paradox. You want to bring in fresh new players to breathe life into the game, yet these new casuals are the same people that will advocate to change the game into something you DON’T WANT it to be.

    @gregcau:

    Hexen has contributed more to the game than anyone else in my opinion. His videos were the best and just added to the level of enthusiasm for the game. TBS should have given him a special award, but that is not their style.

    Mmhmm. I praised Hexen in my reply, and in other threads on this forum. His award was notability, helping many chivalry players, the profits from his videos and my undivided love <3 (which can’t be bought). Try to buy my love gregcau…you can’t.

    @parkrangerstan:

    the casual player majority essentially ruined the game for the hardcore competitive player minority

    @gregcau:

    While you have some valid points e.g. casual players bring in the most revenue. You are so far off base with that supposition.

    Any developer, in any line of business can tell the difference between an informed opinion and a noob opinion. Do you think Microsoft tailored Office based upon first time users or power users?

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.

    I really doubt that that is how it happened. At least that is not the historical MO for dev changes. Historically, major nerfs or mechanic changes were made after the devs kept getting their asses handed to them from skilled competitive players that knew their game better than they did. LOLS just ask me how much got nerfed and changed because of what KILA clan did to the old TB (dev) clan in AOC.

    But if it happened as you say. That is sad and again, another bad choice in development. I would also disagree that the patch passed with support of the casual majority because there was a mass exodus from the game about a month after the patch of both comps and casuals and continued to decline till there was another free whore weekend.



  • @Retsnom:

    @parkrangerstan:

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.

    I really doubt that that is how it happened. At least that is not the historical MO for dev changes. Historically, major nerfs or mechanic changes were made after the devs kept getting their asses handed to them from skilled competitive players that knew their game better than they did. LOLS just ask me how much got nerfed and changed because of what KILA clan did to the old TB (dev) clan in AOC.

    But if it happened as you say. That is sad and again, another bad choice in development. I would also disagree that the patch passed with support of the casual majority because there was a mass exodus from the game about a month after the patch of both comps and casuals and continued to decline till there was another free whore weekend.

    you’re probably best to list the stuff that was changed, otherwise he won’t understand, anyhow you couldn’t post as much on forums cause of your constant feedback and explaining points, they banned you, same for me lol, just not as long.

    there was a very small group of players influencing the changes for age of chivalry, it was never the masses, they lost a lot of players that way too as well as with the model patches that made it barely possible to play unless you had a REALLY high end pc lol, i got like 30fps max and i had quite a good card.

    Unfortunately though Parkranger, they do have a history of lack of communication and giving false sense / hyping then changing their routes, if you have been around since age of chivalry launch on steam or beforehand then you will know this.

    It’s a good game, because it’s in its niche, they as with most game companies, just forget that their community can’t mind read or see the future, so they start to lose them, they should go take advice from NS2 devs again lol.



  • @Retsnom:

    @parkrangerstan:

    The June patch fucked the game up for competitive players. The June patch was meant to make the game more friendly towards new players by slowing and dumbing down combat, so obviously the casual majority supported it. Casual majority=biggest contributors of $$$$, so of course TBS backed them. So the patch passed with the support of the casual majority and TBS. All TBS did was give the competitive scene representatives a false sense that they had much of a say, when really, TBS was going to proceed with the changes that the patch made anyway.

    I really doubt that that is how it happened. At least that is not the historical MO for dev changes. Historically, major nerfs or mechanic changes were made after the devs kept getting their asses handed to them from skilled competitive players that knew their game better than they did. LOLS just ask me how much got nerfed and changed because of what KILA clan did to the old TB (dev) clan in AOC.

    But if it happened as you say. That is sad and again, another bad choice in development. I would also disagree that the patch passed with support of the casual majority because there was a mass exodus from the game about a month after the patch of both comps and casuals and continued to decline till there was another free whore weekend.

    Good points. I would also like to point out that a large part of both of our arguments is “speculation” or theory as why things are the way they are. So it’s largely opinion; no right or wrong in most cases.



  • @parkrangerstan:

    Good points. I would also like to point out that a large part of both of our arguments is “speculation” or theory as why things are the way they are. So it’s largely opinion; no right or wrong in most cases.

    Not speculation, fact. The nerfing of AOC by the devs was in direct response from what we did in game and to their clan and so many others prior to CR1. That is fact not speculation. CR2 was also similar to the bubble patch in that they nerfed tactics by changing the game mechanics and redid entire maps because of what I personally did with the chandeliers in monistary and many other maps. There is an entire list of things that were removed readjusted and tweaked because of the tactics we employed. If the old forums were up and running I prove it too you. There is a reason why you only get 1 fire pot or 2 smoke pots instead of your choice of either and 3 of them, reasons why the catapults were severely nerfed, why certain classes have always been nerfed along with them even nerfing and removing half a map because of how we used it.

    That is the truth my friend rather you like it or not. Hit me up in TeamSpeak and I will tell you the details and there are many.



  • @Retsnom:

    @parkrangerstan:

    Good points. I would also like to point out that a large part of both of our arguments is “speculation” or theory as why things are the way they are. So it’s largely opinion; no right or wrong in most cases.

    Not speculation, fact. The nerfing of AOC by the devs was in direct response from what we did in game and to their clan and so many others prior to CR1. That is fact not speculation. CR2 was also similar to the bubble patch in that they nerfed tactics by changing the game mechanics and redid entire maps because of what I personally did with the chandeliers in monistary and many other maps. There is an entire list of things that were removed readjusted and tweaked because of the tactics we employed. If the old forums were up and running I prove it too you. There is a reason why you only get 1 fire pot or 2 smoke pots instead of your choice of either and 3 of them, reasons why the catapults were severely nerfed, why certain classes have always been nerfed along with them even nerfing and removing half a map because of how we used it.

    That is the truth my friend rather you like it or not. Hit me up in TeamSpeak and I will tell you the details and there are many.

    I said part…



  • Actually the june patch didnt just fuck up the competitive scene, but also some pub players gameplay who relied on punishing missed swings / ducking etc and stuff like that that worked in pubs.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Actually the june patch didnt just fuck up the competitive scene, but also some pub players gameplay who relied on punishing missed swings / ducking etc and stuff like that that worked in pubs.

    Well, yes. However the patch was the primary reason for the collapse of the competitive scene. Sure, others who would be considered “casual players” resented the changes, but it had the most impact by far on the competitive scene.



  • If I recall correctly, many competitive players were on board with re-balancing the game in some aspect. As long as changes were cautious, thoroughly tested, and basically didn’t fuck up the game competitively people were happy to look for ways and compromises to make the game more fun to learn to play.

    The problem wasn’t that a good balance for competitive and casual players couldn’t be found - TBS didn’t ever really try to do this. It was that they rushed a largely untested patch despite knowledgeable players pointing out flaws and urging for further testing.

    The patch introduced many things that I think are actually generally disliked. For example, I think right now most people who have experience playing pre-patch dislike the bubble and things like panic parry. It just took more casual players much longer to figure it out. Of course, it killed the competitive scene basically instantly because those guys already knew it was a bad patch.

    Maybe I’m biased, but that’s my view of it. Generally, for most players, it was a bad (or undecided) patch. Unfortunately both TBS and a large amount of certain casual players (who have strangely since disappeared from the forums) didn’t seem to value the insight that experienced players could give, probably because most people got into their head that good players simply cheated by using exploits and were just whining because they were fixed. I think the worst part about it is that it seems TBS were part of those people too.



  • I remember saying before the June patch hit, that I thought the game was more balanced than it had ever been, and that TBS will likely just F everything up by making changes (I’m not exactly a minority either lol). What scared me the most at the time was the fact that the patch was supposedly going to make drastic changes…and I thought, oh no :(



  • This is what happens when you try and nerf vaild tactics with a game mechanic instead of time, experience and developing counter measures. This happened in AOC with the Toe2Toe combat system that was supposed to stop hit and run tactics by no allowing player to sprint for 2 sec once you parried or attacked. It basically forced you to stand there and hit trade.

    Hit and run tactics are valid and repeatable. MAA do it all the time. They learned their lesson, sort of. Face hugging is a valid tactic. With time and experience you come up with counter measures as a player. But instead they changed an entire mechanic across the entire game to disastrous results. They could have done very simple tweaks like increased side step or back speeds. There could have been less damaged awarded to the most spamable face hugging weapons. The could have even slowed the down a little. So many other things could have been done if it was really a problem than to radically change the game mechanic to where even fisting isnt even fun because 70% of your swings miss.

    But I digress.



  • @Retsnom:

    This is what happens when you try and nerf vaild tactics with a game mechanic instead of time, experience and developing counter measures. This happened in AOC with the Toe2Toe combat system that was supposed to stop hit and run tactics by no allowing player to sprint for 2 sec once you parried or attacked. It basically forced you to stand there and hit trade.

    Hit and run tactics are valid and repeatable. MAA do it all the time. They learned their lesson, sort of. Face hugging is a valid tactic. With time and experience you come up with counter measures as a player. But instead they changed an entire mechanic across the entire game to disastrous results. They could have done very simple tweaks like increased side step or back speeds. There could have been less damaged awarded to the most spamable face hugging weapons. The could have even slowed the down a little. So many other things could have been done if it was really a problem than to radically change the game mechanic to where even fisting isnt even fun because 70% of your swings miss.

    But I digress.

    also happened with shotgunning with xbows too, they nerfed that shit for chiv to appeal to the masses lol,

    bunny hopping should of been a valid tactic too ! same for cancelling a reload to get out of a shot.

    but yes MANY MANY tactics were nerfed / removed unfortunately.

    they really didnt need to change the game mechanics as you said, but it’s just how they’ve always done it lol.



  • LOLS yeah there is no jump crouch so no going through windows or climbing on the environment without glitching. By the way, why is there no ladders in Shiv or pushable siege towers?

    Yes I am no longer calling it Chiv but Shiv because calling the game a prison knife resembles how I feel getting stabbed in the back by this game over and over.



  • @Retsnom:

    LOLS yeah there is no jump crouch so no going through windows or climbing on the environment without glitching. By the way, why is there no ladders in Shiv or pushable siege towers?

    Yes I am no longer calling it Chiv but Shiv because calling the game a prison knife resembles how I feel getting stabbed in the back by this game over and over.

    i believe its the same as the catapults, their not finished yet, though the siege towers probably won’t be in for another year, try Chiv 2nd birthday if they add it, or they will add them first to deadliest warrior like the drawbridge they did lol :P


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