Parry Window, Bubble and Shields [PICS]



  • Sadly after the new forums where created, many of the attachments were not transferred over and the attachment settings have not been set properly by the admins. I will work on correcting this on my end when I can.

    After some very heated debate about the parry mechanic and how it works and if it is a flawed system, I decided to investigate just what is what. Once you see the pics and explanations, hopefully this will help you work better in the given system. Now I will also be adding my opinions on many of these systems and how I feel it is terribly flawed, far from intuitive, horribly optimized, and basically lazy one size fits all game design. Please keep in mind that these are opinions based on game play and what these pictures represent. I believe my descriptions of these images are correct as well as how they function. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

    Instructions for Testing

    If you want to know what I did to get these pictures, here are the instructions for you to test it for your self. First create a game. You can if you wish add a bot or two to see much of what I talk about in motion. Once the game has loaded, type this in console: show collision and this will show you all the collision walls of everything with in the map. 3rd person will allow you to see your own collisions.

    [EDIT for Lemoneater]Ok there are several issues happening with SHOW COLLISIONS command. First off when a bot is spawned or you f10 while SHOW COLLISION is on, the newly spawned model will not show all of the collisions correctly. This I believe is the reason for the confusion of some of the pics having more lines drawn than others. If you toggle SHOW COLLISION on and off after the player model spawns then all of the collisions will by shown correctly. Having SHOW COLLISIONS on will also have a negative effect on your FPS for obvious reasons. Sorry that I did not explain that. The lines were not removed in photoshop.

    The Bubble
    Ok so lets look at the bubble first. In this pic you will see several things that need some explanation that will apply to the rest of the pics. The big red box is just reference for the player model. If you look closely you will see a rather large light grey cylinder with in and extending beyond the player model red box. This grey cylinder is the bubble. You will also see a bright white box. This is the invisible parry wall or window. As you can see the bubble is in fact a cylinder with lots of facets or polygons. It is not really round or smooth as it wraps around the actual player model collision which is the exact same size of the model. Now you can see why the bubble is such a dumb idea. If you look at the peasant you will also see that it too has the same size bubble as well as a floating parry window as well. This goes more towards optimization but more on that later.

    Now if you follow the instructions on how to view this you will also see how the collision bubble gets in the way of even going through a door and how easy it is to get stuck on stuff because the cylinder bubble is not smooth and is bigger than you think. It also explains why fisting and many hits ghost through player models. I believe that when two player bubbles connect they are pushed away much like a weapon will bounce off of a tree. From the client side as you play, there is no real way to know how big your invisible bubble is so or even if you are up against it unless of course you get frozen, pressed against something or sandwiched between two players.

    Because the bubble is wide and the exact same height of the player model, this explains why you can no longer duck between two players that are trying to sandwich or surround you when before the bubble you actually could duck and escape. It also explains why there are so many issues with the bubble including the possibility of adding more crap in the net code. It is another layer of collision that should not exist when the player model has collision by default.

    The Parry System

    In almost all of the pics you will see a white box that floats in front of the player model. This is the invisible parry wall that is activated when you hit parry. It stays active for the time programmed then deactivates. I believe it is .5 secs. There are many things wrong with this system. First off the parry window is the same size and timing for all weapons and classes while the animations are all slightly different. Press the button and the animation starts as well as activating the invisible shield wall. Both the animation and the weapon size are completely irrelevant to how the parry system works. So you cannot rely at all by the animations or trying to parry with the end of your weapon. It is all based in the timing of the activation of the window and your mouse movement, looking left, right, up and down.

    This is terribly problematic and not intuitive. As fencer in real life (Yes i know the game is not realistic) when attacking and you see a parry rising, you instinctual try and swing above, below or around the parry. This does not at all work in SHIV because the parry wall is so big and thick. Lets say the player model is 6’ tall, the invisible parry wall seems to be approx 6’x3’x1’. Thus there is no way realistically to accurately get around above or below this invisible wall. It is all about timing for the most part. There is no way you can guide your swing below the parry wall or above the parry wall.

    “But Ret, I can jump stab and get around parrys all the time” Yes it is true that if you get high enough and stab at the right time you can possibly get over the parry wall and score a head shot. When you get around a parry, you can only do this by literally back stabbing them unless they did not turn the invisible wall in front of your attack. The problem is that you have no real reference point to where the end of the parry wall is because the graphics, weapon size and the animations do not match the size of the wall.

    Most of the time I would say it was the parry timing shutting off the wall is how you got your shot through the parry. This is exactly how dragging works by slowing down your swing to out last the wall activation. This is not to say that you cannot get around the parry, there is just no way to know how far you got to go. Again this is where the foot work is more important than actual attack placement. Again not intuitive by any means. So when aiming your attacks you will want to try and hit them further to their side or back.

    One other issue I have with the parry window from testing it against bots is that the window is not really attached to anything. In many cases the parry window will lag behind when you turn. You can test this yourself in 3rd person against bots or just move around and do some quick turning. This is exactly where, in my opinion where the parry system is broken and just plain stupid. If your parry window is lagging behind when you turn and try an parry, attacks will appear to get through your parry. Now this could be caused by two things. One is that it is not attached to anything and is just floating. The other could be the bubble is effecting it as well. But since parrys failed sometimes prior to the patch, I would say that the parry lagging behind the player model when it turns is probably the reason.

    While the shields and the protection box is actually attached to the shield model, this is not the case with the parry window.

    Here are some pics by Class, some have all collisions boxes and other are to demonstrate shield sizes.

    Continued on next post….



  • The Shields

    Now I would like to touch on the shields. If you are having problems getting around shields, join the club. The nice thing about the shields is that the protection box is actually attached to the shield model unlike the parry not being attache to your weapon model. But sadly they are all much larger than the graphical representations of the shield model. In the case of the buckler or round shield, the hit box is square! The tower shield hit box is so tall that it is really hard to get under or over it. But at least it is visually more accurate than the larger parry window. The question I have is to they overlap and do both engage when you press the parry while using the shield? If so that explains a lot as well thus the shield coverage is greater. But I could be wrong on that one. It seems that the hit boxes of the shields are just too big and when you add in the bubble, it can make it really hard for your hits to register.

    Conclusion and Desires

    First off let me say two things. Having fought with many of the weapons in real life over many years, I understand how fighting and parrying should work. Yes I know it is not realist of a game in many ways, nor should it be. With that said, there is a level of design that should incorporate as much of the realism as possible while still making it fun and even Hollywoodesque.

    I have pointed to many of the problems and flaws in the game design that make the fighting system very problematic and not intuitive. The game was marketed as “real time swing control” and intuitive. The parry system gives players no real control over their parrys or attacker, control over their swings by not being able to go under or over the parry weapon.

    The parry should be relative to the size of each weapon and attached to the weapon. Not the actual size but slightly larger like with the shields. This would make the entire weapon a directional parry if it was attached to the weapon and not some quirky, floating, large, invisible, wall shield that you cannot control the timing of. Yes it would mean that daggers would have a harder time parring a heavy weapon, as it should be. This would make weapon choices more important as you would actually sacrifice speed for size. But because the parry window would be attached to the animation and the weapon, faster weapons could get in more. The idea here is that the entire game would require and give greater accuracy at all levels. You could always increase the size and length of time if there were weapons that were made virtually worthless. But I really doubt this would be the case. It would also raise the skill ceiling as well as making the game and fighting more intuitive and natural.

    This is also why I have suggested a tap parry that is timed and accurate to the animation and a holdable parry. If the parry is attache to the weapon then dragging would not be made obsolete because the parry hit box would be much smaller and you could directionally control the drag to avoid the parry by swinging lower or higher. In return the parry would also have to follow the drag to make a successful parry if held but at a bigger cost of stam and a delay for an attack if held VS the tap parry where the attack would be almost instantaneous. Real time control of both the weapon and the defense. It works fine for the shields, why not for parry attached to weapons?



  • The bubble only collides with enemy player bubbles and nothing else. Not doors, not walls, not weapons, not even friendly players. Don’t believe me ask the devs. Yes the bubble is a bad idea but stop blaming it for things it doesn’t do.

    Your right about shields though, shields should do that. Look at the buckler its a bigger area than the tower shield.

    Parry being what it is can actually mean you know where the parry does are by memory rather than animation. You are more of a visual person. Some people play by memory. They just no how far around they have to go to get around parries and stuff as they learn differently than you do. For a visual person it sucks.

    Also would you mind linking where the instructions are so other people can also experiment.



  • @lemonater47:

    The bubble only collides with enemy player bubbles and nothing else. Not doors, not walls, not weapons, not even friendly players. Don’t believe me ask the devs. Yes the bubble is a bad idea but stop blaming it for things it doesn’t do.

    Your right about shields though, shields should do that. Look at the buckler its a bigger area than the tower shield.

    Parry being what it is can actually mean you know where the parry does are by memory rather than animation. You are more of a visual person. Some people play by memory. They just no how far around they have to go to get around parries and stuff as they learn differently than you do. For a visual person it sucks.

    Also would you mind linking where the instructions are so other people can also experiment.

    UGh some times I just want you muted out of my threads…. Hey feel free to test it… please do… because it dose with doors and objects. They cylinder will not let you go through a door if you even touch it. There are lots of claims by the devs that are not true or that they actually have no clue.

    Your memory argument is about as dumb as 90% of the rest of your posts. Please stop posting… Everyone plays visually, everyone uses visual clues through the player model animations. While there are a few audio clues in game like the Sprint attack warning, this does not apply to the parry. They memorize what works visually. What you are clearly not understanding is that the parry mechanic as is, is retarded on too many levels. It is lazy one size fits all across all classes, literally making them not all that different defensively. This is just plain laziness in development and doesn’t really make the classes all that different other than how they attack.

    The two reasons for this thread is to show people that they are fighting against a timed invisible shield wall and that it is a dumb idea. Not only that but I have explained why it is bugged and if you test it yourself you will see the floating invisible shield wall lag behind the player model when moving and turning…

    SO how about you get off of your brown nosing horse and test this shit out for yourself. That is why I posted pics. If I had a better computer I would have made a video.

    Please LEMON do not fill and clog this thread with your yammering and ignorant counter arguments and dev worship, there are plenty of other threads to do that on. We all know your opinions and unless it is actually relevant and you have done some testing, please stay out.



  • Everyone plays visually eh? You would think that. I mean you think that only 30% of parries work when is probably people getting around you.

    Sounds to me like you think you know what goes on because of your hours. Just because you have 2000 in the game doesn’t actually mean you know how it all works. You should know. It seems that you think you know everything just because of your hours played.

    You sure you even understand all those lines and boxes. Where the documentation that actually tells us what each of those lines mean? You read any documentation at all? Or have you just “assumed” stuff and then act like you know because of your hours played.

    Back up your “facts” with evidence. Before you start spreading shit. I’m not the only one that questions your credibility. Many people will think what you say is true because of your hours and I don’t blame them. But I’m not content with that. Give me the commands and show me the documentation telling you what box is what. If it even exists. I’ll make a bloody video. Not that you need a good computer to record. YouTube is capped at 30 FPS anyway.

    In fact I asked for the commands in my last post and you even told me to experiment. But you haven’t given me the command to do so. You scared I might find something you missed. You scared that by some slim chance I might actually be right? I need that command.



  • I don’t get these lines and frames.

    Look at the Tower Shield - you have giant red frame in front, then light pink(?) inside of it, but no purple. The Heater Shield gets pink and purple lines. The Buckler has purple only. What does it mean? Which one does what? Is projectile blocking volume same as melee blocking volume?



  • @Holy.Death:

    I don’t get these lines and frames.

    Look at the Tower Shield - you have giant red frame in front, then light pink(?) inside of it, but no purple. The Heater Shield gets pink and purple lines. The Buckler has purple only. What does it mean? Which one does what? Is projectile blocking volume same as melee blocking volume?

    Projectile blocking is probably the purple one. Wouldn’t know for sure. Neither would he. Where does he get his “information” from.

    I think he was playing around with the white one. Then saw the purple one was bigger so removed the white one.



  • So if the projectile blocking box is the purple one, I guess that’s why arrow stickies don’t work anymore. It’s been turned off so that arrows aren’t stuck in air.



  • @Reginhard:

    So if the projectile blocking box is the purple one, I guess that’s why arrow stickies don’t work anymore. It’s been turned off so that arrows aren’t stuck in air.

    Actually javelins still get stuck in the air, I’m pretty sure arrow stickies disappearing is actually still a bug.



  • @lemonater47:

    In fact I asked for the commands in my last post and you even told me to experiment. But you haven’t given me the command to do so. You scared I might find something you missed. You scared that by some slim chance I might actually be right? I need that command.

    Just read the first post ffs. Here:

    If you want to know what I did to get these pictures, here are the instructions for you to test it for your self. First create a game. You can if you wish add a bot or two to see much of what I talk about in motion. Once the game has loaded, type this in console: show collision and this will show you all the collision walls of everything with in the map. 3rd person will allow you to see your own collisions.

    I tested it for a few mins. It really seems like the cylindrical lines represent the bubble and yes, they also seem to determine collision with objects. Just use the command and try to get your bubble inside another object, like a tree. I couldn’t.



  • God I knew Lemon would be an ignorant freaking retard and clog up the thread with ignorant stupid bullshit without even following instructions and testing it for himself. The reason why I know this is because I have done level design for years and the basic concepts are the same across all game engines when it comes to models, collisions boxes and hit boxes. The other reason is because I spent almost a whole day testing on various maps and against bots, grabbing the best screen shots to help explain what is happening and why.

    Because I have been a level designer for years in many games. I have played this game for 1200+ hours not truly understanding how the parry system worked until I tested it. And I have well over 3000+ hours in AOC and level design in that game which is the base for SHIV.

    SO again LEMON, quit posting stupid shit and actually read and comprehend what is written. Follow instructions and test it for yourself. Quit being a argumentative fucktard and quit clogging up threads with your kiss ass drivel. We already know how you feel and your love of everything TBS. We get it already. Now go away.

    Sorry for the rant fellas but his overwhelming ignorace drives me insane.

    Back to the main topics:
    @Holy.Death:

    I don’t get these lines and frames.

    Look at the Tower Shield - you have giant red frame in front, then light pink(?) inside of it, but no purple. The Heater Shield gets pink and purple lines. The Buckler has purple only. What does it mean? Which one does what? Is projectile blocking volume same as melee blocking volume?

    Ok there are several issues happening with SHOW COLLISIONS command. First off when a bot is spawned or you f10 while SHOW COLLISION is on, the newly spawned model will not show all of the collisions correctly. This I believe is the reason for the confusion of some of the pics having more lines drawn than others. If you toggle SHOW COLLISION on and off after the player model spawns then all of the collisions will by shown correctly. Sorry that I did not explain that.

    But really testing in CREATE GAME in third person will give you all the understanding you need. This is true for seeing the white floating parry wall and how it will sometimes lag behind the player model when turning so that it does not stay in front of the player model like it should because it is really not bound to anything like the shield collision boxes are.

    I didnt get good pics of all the shield collision boxes because I thought the parry system was more important to test. But if you test this yourself you can see the different sizes of collision boxes per shield type you will see that the buckler has quite a substantially large collision box. It is clearly square and not round. It covers way too much and the square angle on a round shield give it far more protection than it should. It is almost as big as the tower shield but just not as long. (hard to see in the pics). The Kite shield is also longer and slightly skinner.

    But what is important is that the shield collision box is attached to the actual shield model. So when caring the shield on the left arm, and raising the shield, the collision box follows the shield exactly in the animation. The question lies if when the parry button is pressed and activates the shield animation and the shield collision does it also activate the white parry window as well at the same time? IF this is the case of having the shield collision and the parry window activated at the same time, is the parry window the primary protection and the shield collision box in addition too or is it just the shields alone? Which supersedes the other if at all?

    This is really hard to test because DEV commands have been removed from online play and can only be tested with bots. Since bots have their own AI it is hard to have control over them for testing.

    But overall, it is clear that the parry window is not the best system. It is a one size fits all defense system where neither the weapon not the animation have anything to do with it. This is terribly misleading and explains why many times you will see weird animations of super fast parry and insta hit or slow parrys and inta hits off the parry. Final analysis is that you cannot trust the animations or weapon model when you parry. You cannot trust that they parry window will be where it is supposed to be when turning because of the inconsistent parry window lagging behind the player model.

    From the attacking side of the issue, you really have no idea where the invisible parry wall is on your enemy player model at any one time. Nor can you tell with any degree of accuracy, how big or wide the invisible parry window is. What you can be sure of is that it is close to impossible to hit below or above a correctly timed parry. But since you cannot rely on animations or weapon size, you cannot rely on when the parry is actually activated. Nor can you tell if the parry window is lagging behind the turning player model. Now add in normal server lag in MS, you can now see how inconsistent the parry system is.

    SO if Lemon can have a 100% success rate in parrys as he claimed in another thread, then he is a god.



  • The instructions weren’t there at first he edited his lot to add them later.

    Seems. That’s the problem. I’m not happy with seems.

    Maybe that’s the actual collision box. Maybe that’s been like that since release.

    Its entirely possible that the command doesn’t even show the bubble as the bubble would be added after the command was made.

    I don’t want assumptions. I want facts.



  • @lemonater47:

    The instructions weren’t there at first he edited his lot to add them later.

    Seems. That’s the problem. I’m not happy with seems.

    Maybe that’s the actual collision box. Maybe that’s been like that since release.

    Its entirely possible that the command doesn’t even show the bubble as the bubble would be added after the command was made.

    I don’t want assumptions. I want facts.

    I want you to quit posting stupid shit and go away but clearly that isnt happening… again read… test… go away…

    It was in the original post I just didnt add the big colored header… INSTRUCTIONS If you had bother to read instead of skim over it you would have known. If you would have read even further you would know how I know what I know.
    :hopel:



  • How does insulting me make you any more correct. And I did read you posts and no your instructions weren’t there you edited them in later.

    Untill we know 100% what each of those lines and boxes actually do we can’t be sure of anything.



  • @lemonater47:

    How does insulting me make you any more correct. And I did read you posts and no your instructions weren’t there you edited them in later.

    It doesn’t, years of mapping and level design do make me correct. Besides, insulting you makes me feel better.

    Untill we know 100% what each of those lines and boxes actually do we can’t be sure of anything.

    Now you are calling me a xx lair xx. liar.



  • The big red box is just reference for the player model.

    The red box is what collides with the environment, and the bubble with other players. You can test this out for yourself by typing “duck” into console, which is a bugged command (scheduled to be removed) that makes your red collision box smaller. There are some places where you can just walk under stuff you never could before because of a smaller collision box.

    Example:

    !



  • @Retsnom:

    @lemonater47:

    How does insulting me make you any more correct. And I did read you posts and no your instructions weren’t there you edited them in later.

    It doesn’t, years of mapping and level design do make me correct. Besides, insulting you makes me feel better.

    Untill we know 100% what each of those lines and boxes actually do we can’t be sure of anything.

    Now you are calling me a lair.

    Ogres have lairs, onions have layers. An ogre is like an onion.

    Just testing your stuff though Retsom. Shit’s fucked yo. It would be nice if the animations matched up. Any chance of you posting attack tracers? Are they all 2d streaks?



  • @Retsnom:

    @lemonater47:

    How does insulting me make you any more correct. And I did read you posts and no your instructions weren’t there you edited them in later.

    It doesn’t, years of mapping and level design do make me correct. Besides, insulting you makes me feel better.

    Untill we know 100% what each of those lines and boxes actually do we can’t be sure of anything.

    Now you are calling me a lair.

    There’s your problem. You want to feel good. You think you are too good.

    Yet you actually have no bloody idea what you are on about. Truth is nobody knows.

    Without documentation on what those lines and boxes actually do we can’t pass off what you said as true. That’s the problem here. I’m sorry. But years of experience in map making does not mean you are right either. Knowing what each of those lines does makes you right. And you don’t know what they mean.



  • @Kim:

    The red box is what collides with the environment, and the bubble with other players. You can test this out for yourself by typing “duck” into console, which is a bugged command (scheduled to be removed) that makes your red collision box smaller. There are some places where you can just walk under stuff you never could before because of a smaller collision box.

    Example:

    !

    from that picture it seems like the bubble gets smaller as well o:



  • [EDIT for LemonTard]Ok there are several issues happening with SHOW COLLISIONS command. First off when a bot is spawned or you f10 while SHOW COLLISION is on, the newly spawned model will not show all of the collisions correctly. This I believe is the reason for the confusion of some of the pics having more lines drawn than others. If you toggle SHOW COLLISION on and off after the player model spawns then all of the collisions will by shown correctly. Having SHOW COLLISIONS on will also have a negative effect on your FPS for obvious reasons. Sorry that I did not explain that. The lines were not removed in photoshop.

    I wasn’t complaining about that ya fool.


Log in to reply