Tournaments: Reflection on Class Balance



  • Hi all,

    Now that the latest duel tournament and 6v6 melee only tournaments have been complete/near complete - I thought this was an appropriate subject.

    What do we feel is the verdict of class/weapon balance based on the results of the tournament?

    I would argue that class balance is very good right now.

    DUELS: As much as people indicate that MAA is the strongest duel class, it appeared that other classes were able to counter it. The best MAAs lost a lot of rounds to non-maa classes.

    GROUP PLAY: As it relates to tournament group play, the favorite classes were knight and vanguard. This suggests that knight and vanguard may be stronger than MAA in group play. That said, I know there was a lot of controversy within Tempest on what class composition was best, which supports the notion that the classes are quite balanced. We found that we liked certain classes in different situations, which I think is a reflection of healthy class balance. So while knights and vanguards were the favorite classes, it may not be that MAA is underpowered, but more so that too many MAAs is not tactically advantageous. Another explanation is that more people (or more skilled people) play vanugard and knight than MAA, which lead to more vanguards and knights being played. I can tell you in Tempest though, limiting the MAAs was a decision based on class composition, not the skill of the underlying MAAs (in fact we had people who play MAA a lot, play a different class).

    I also feel MAAs were limited partly because of the high usage of vanguards. The reach of vanguards can make it very difficult for an MAA to infiltrate the fight. As a result, knights were used quite a bit rather than MAA.

    Overall, I feel these tournaments proved that class balance is very good. In group play, it comes down to knowing the strengths of the various classes and taking advantage of those strengths through the use of tactics.

    Note: Obviously archers didn’t play a factor, which does impact class balance. It will be interesting to see how class selection is determined once archers are re-introduced.

    /discuss with honesty
    /good job TB



  • As a player who considers himself a fairly decent MAA and Vanguard i’ll toss around a few of my own personal opinions on tournament play and class balance.

    It’s not a smart choice to run more than 2 MAA’s in a 6v6 due to the fact that with the bubble nerf, comboing as an MAA is nowhere near as affective as it previously was. Any decent player will surely block the second part of the combo and it’s been proven thousands of times. When I can 4 shot a Knight as an MAA with a broadsword or 2 shot a Knight as a Vanguard with the pole hammer the choice is clear on what I’m running in a tournament. Especially with the fact that MAA’s don’t really benefit from overhead lookdowns/drags a fight against a knight can really drag on and that’s not what tournament play is about. The goal is to get in and get out as quick as possible and get to the objective.

    I personally think’s it ridiculous that MAA’s can dodge out of the flinch state after getting hit. SEVERAL times I’ve been killed by a stab from a defending MAA when he dodged out of my initial overhead hit that combos into a stab where he dodges in between the overhead and lands a stab before my combo finishes. That is a prime example of how powerful that mechanic alone can be.

    Next topic, onto Vanguard and Knight complaints. Lets start off with dragging shall we? What a terrible mechanic this has been, in the duel tournament that’s basically all you saw between the two classes. Whoever is a better dragger wins. Accelerating into a swing is understandable but slowing down a swing that lands for full damage especially when the animations get fuked in the process is just unfair. TB needs to drastically reduce the damage from slowing down swings and fix the animations as well. You lose all momentum when you slow the swing down. If you don’t believe me go to the park and hit a baseball with a bat and put a good amount of force behind it and watch how far it goes. Then use the same bat and hit it like a pusy and watch how far it doesn’t go, my point is proven.

    Just my two cents.



  • While balance around melee classes is in pretty good shape, archer is ruining it all. It’s more important and useful to have a good archer than good knight, vanguard or maa. Great archer player can carry their team harder than any great player of other class.

    In game where most of the time you fight with melee, archers are biggest game changers, lts or not.

    Archer. Archer. Archer.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    While balance around melee classes is in pretty good shape, archer is ruining it all. It’s more important and useful to have a good archer than good knight, vanguard or maa. Great archer player can carry their team harder than any great player of other class.

    In game where most of the time you fight with melee, archers are biggest game changers, lts or not.

    Archer. Archer. Archer.

    Archers don’t kill 5 members in a row in a 6v6 like kwazi did. Archers are not as OP as everyone says they are. An all melee team with throwables that knows what they are doing can kill any team with a decent archer.



  • polearms are pretty jacked.



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    polearms are pretty jacked.

    Thanks for that wonderful response, very informative. Cmon guys, this is supposed to be a serious thread, not people just stating that a class/weapon is OP and failing to explain why.



  • @Dontuhateme:

    As a player who considers himself a fairly decent MAA and Vanguard i’ll toss around a few of my own personal opinions on tournament play and class balance.

    It’s not a smart choice to run more than 2 MAA’s in a 6v6 due to the fact that with the bubble nerf, comboing as an MAA is nowhere near as affective as it previously was. Any decent player will surely block the second part of the combo and it’s been proven thousands of times. When I can 4 shot a Knight as an MAA with a broadsword or 2 shot a Knight as a Vanguard with the pole hammer the choice is clear on what I’m running in a tournament. Especially with the fact that MAA’s don’t really benefit from overhead lookdowns/drags a fight against a knight can really drag on and that’s not what tournament play is about. The goal is to get in and get out as quick as possible and get to the objective.

    I personally think’s it ridiculous that MAA’s can dodge out of the flinch state after getting hit. SEVERAL times I’ve been killed by a stab from a defending MAA when he dodged out of my initial overhead hit that combos into a stab where he dodges in between the overhead and lands a stab before my combo finishes. That is a prime example of how powerful that mechanic alone can be.

    Next topic, onto Vanguard and Knight complaints. Lets start off with dragging shall we? What a terrible mechanic this has been, in the duel tournament that’s basically all you saw between the two classes. Whoever is a better dragger wins. Accelerating into a swing is understandable but slowing down a swing that lands for full damage especially when the animations get fuked in the process is just unfair. TB needs to drastically reduce the damage from slowing down swings and fix the animations as well. You lose all momentum when you slow the swing down. If you don’t believe me go to the park and hit a baseball with a bat and put a good amount of force behind it and watch how far it goes. Then use the same bat and hit it like a pusy and watch how far it doesn’t go, my point is proven.

    Just my two cents.

    Donut, never make an argument based off of realism. This game isn’t meant to be Medieval Simulator 2013, and I find that many players make that mistake when they attempt to prove their claim. This is class and weapon balance, not class and weapon realism. Drags are perfectly fine and there is no reason for them to switch the way they are. If you really want to make a realism argument, you’d also have to point out the fact that if bodkins hurt knights and vanguards because they have more armor, wouldn’t that mean they’d do the same if not more damage than broadheads against a light class like MAA and archer? Going on with realism, that would mean dodge wasn’t meant to be implemented, it is just a bug when you double tap a directional button or V (Default one-button dodge.) Dodging could just be called teleporting. You’d also point out that you can’t kick when using some form of projectile in your hand. You can’t do so because while it would be realistic, it wouldn’t be balanced at all. There would be no risk in close range archery, you could just kick someone up close and hurriedly take out your melee. It would completely terminate the fact that archer positioning is a skill, because there would be no risks of death up close, making archer the ultimate class.

    ALSO WHY POLEARMS ARE JACKED:



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    polearms are pretty jacked.

    My thoughts for a long time now and made stronger by the tournament. Just fix the handle hitting and give us some time to measure their power after that.



  • @Desyatski:

    Donut, never make an argument based off of realism. This game isn’t meant to be Medieval Simulator 2013, and I find that many players make that mistake when they attempt to prove their claim. This is class and weapon balance, not class and weapon realism. Drags are perfectly fine and there is no reason for them to switch the way they are. If you really want to make a realism argument, you’d also have to point out the fact that if bodkins hurt knights and vanguards because they have more armor, wouldn’t that mean they’d do the same if not more damage than broadheads against a light class like MAA and archer? Going on with realism, that would mean dodge wasn’t meant to be implemented, it is just a bug when you double tap a directional button or V (Default one-button dodge.) Dodging could just be called teleporting. You’d also point out that you can’t kick when using some form of projectile in your hand. You can’t do so because while it would be realistic, it wouldn’t be balanced at all. There would be no risk in close range archery, you could just kick someone up close and hurriedly take out your melee. It would completely terminate the fact that archer positioning is a skill, because there would be no risks of death up close, making archer the ultimate class.

    Perfectly fine? Lol how can you say that when clearly the animations are way off. The only people defending your argument are the people who crutch on this mechanic. No one can land hits anymore in a natural way, everyone relies on glitching animations to kill nowadays and its sad. This game needs some form of realism or it loses its unique feel that it was supposed to have originally. Lately this game has become the matrix with all the spinning swings, lean backs, etc… I might as well play soulcalibur on dreamcast.



  • @Dontuhateme:

    when clearly the animations are way off. The only people defending your argument are the people who crutch on this mechanic.

    *ahem

    Sorry, but I’ll take drags over broken polearm animations any day.



  • @Le:

    @Dontuhateme:

    when clearly the animations are way off. The only people defending your argument are the people who crutch on this mechanic.

    *ahem

    Sorry, but I’ll take drags over broken polearm animations any day.

    What do you think happens when you drag a polearm?



  • Everything I just typed got deleted… Sooo I’ll sum all that up. The tournaments were good both of them. I don’t think you can accurately assess the issue of which class is the strongest in 1v1 situations after one tournament. I still feel that it is MAA even if the current tournament suggest otherwise.
    This game shouldn’t contain any more realism that it has to. Players swinging weapons around is all the realism that it needs in my eyes. I only say that because If you really broke the game down and made it more realistic I think most people would discover they would’ve hated Medieval combat. At that time combat wasn’t balanced in most circumstances. Classes had roles kinda of like they do now, even though those roles imo are becoming less defined.

    I feel the number of MAA was limited in this 6v6 all melee TO for the simple fact that there was a rule only allowing one oil pot per team without the addition of archers in the mix. If that rule wasn’t implemented I feel MAA would have been used a lot more than what they were.

    Dragging, I think it needs to stay in the game. Without dragging attacks you just take away another skill that players use to land attacks. Forcing players to rely on other tactics, FEINTS… If anything maybe tweak parrying… or adjust the animations for when they’re dragging and not dragging? Perhaps two different animations within one attack instead of just one animation being either accelerated or decelerated…

    When weapons are marked overpowered I feel that we need to distinguish between animation issues and the pure dominance of a weapon. A lot of weapons have messed up animations and I don’t consider them op, they need work, but other than the animation issues most weapons are fine.
    Greatsword… what doesn’t that weapon have?
    Brandistock…again what doesn’t this weapon have?
    Norsesword/ HWS are really fast and if you throw in look-downs + feints idk what you can do if they close that gap besides being aggressive.
    Halberd/pole-hammer have messed up animations allowing their OH to land faster than it appears.
    Flail shield stab is a joke…
    Reverse OH are cheesy. I believe that DW is addressing this issue making there an optimal frame where you would do the most damage. Before that frame and after that frame you’d do less but still flinch correct?
    Quick kick is broke. Most of the time you can interrupt your opponents attack putting you right back on offense…
    Shield users that are intelligent enough to avoid getting stunned are BROKE. If they eliminate one of the major downfalls of a shield (being kick dazed (free hit)) while also being basically immune to feints makes shields ridiculous… It’s uncommon you come across a person like this and maybe it’s a lack of my skill of not being able to deal with them.
    Vanguard sword charges vs pole-arm charges… comeon’ man. Sword charges are 10x better than pole-arm charges and so much easier to land…



  • Lol Shields are medicore at best regardless of kick or not :D

    class balance is still fucked up regardless of this tourney or not, archer op even if you have just decent aim, maa is fundamentally broken and vanguard is a better knight



  • @CRUSHED:

    class balance is still fucked up regardless of this tourney or not, archer op even if you have just decent aim, maa is fundamentally broken and vanguard is a better knight

    Well this tournament/ thread wasn’t suppose to fix the balancing issues. More less a place to discuss the current state of the games balancing issues.

    Archer is strong, I only feel that the class becomes op when someone is very accurate and consistent with their shots. Their melee is also strong though so I think the class could use a slight nerf, but nothing serious…

    Maa are fundamentally broken? Well… Uhh… Obviously Strong in 1v1 scenarios but they lose their effectiveness in team play to a degree, right?

    Vanguard is a better knight? In what sense? There are roles surrounding both of these classes making both useful in certain situations… Speaking as a strategists I feel you just have to play to their strengths given a certain composition. But to some extent I can see your point.



  • Ninja - I’m not convinced the reason MAAs weren’t heavily used was due to 1 firepot. Maybe on defense that was the case a little more but I think it had more to do with all the vanguards. One could argue that the shield is better to take than a firepot against all those vanguards anyways.

    Trying to understand your analysis on the weapons - are you saying these are OP?

    Greatsword… what doesn’t that weapon have?
    Brandistock…again what doesn’t this weapon have?
    Norsesword/ HWS are really fast and if you throw in look-downs + feints idk what you can do if they close that gap besides being aggressive.

    As it relates to Archers… I think they may be a little strong in the right hands or situations. Like archers on the second objective in stoneshill … “c’mon man”. Personally I think the archer melee should be slightly nerfed. If you finally get to an archer that has equal melee skill as you, the battle should be slightly easier than it is. That said, 2v1’s against an archer are over pretty quick.

    I do agree with the notion that vanguards are slightly OP when no archers are in play (although more due to the poor animations than anything else). With archers… ehhh I suppose it’s a little more even, but I would still say they are quite strong.



  • Without archers to counter vanguards, maa’s were just less effective. I don’t think it had much to do with firepots. Shield maa is still quite strong.



  • Idk I guess we’ll ever know about the MAA. We all have our opinions regarding the issue. I do agree with your statement that MAA would’ve perhaps been used more on defense if more than one oil pot was allowed per team.

    Vanguards are strong, I do think it depends a lot on your positioning, play style and your footwork though. I mean getting caught out of position or in a situation where you’re susceptible to a double tab is devastating. I suppose that applies to every class though, perhaps besides knights for the most part.

    About the weapons analysis…
    I think the great sword is op.
    I think the Brandi has elements that make it a little to strong. At the same time I feel some of its effectiveness comes from it not being a common weapon used by vanguards. As in I don’t come across to many people like Shack :) that annoy the shit out of me… <3
    I just don’t like facing hws/ Norse because of the speed, that was more of a personal complaint lol…

    *i don’t mean to take anything away from anyone who uses these weapons. Regardless of my view on them there is still skill required to wield every weapon. In the end they’re my views and I’m not saying I’m right by any means.



  • All of the classes seem well balanced to me at the moment. MAAs and Knights are still crucial to teams, with Vanguards and Archers not too far behind. The only issue in the balance in the game to me, seems to be some of the vanguard weapons, particularly the brandistock. The amount of damage it can inflict with its range and speed makes it incredibly lethal in the hands of a skilled player. I’m just glad we’ve gotten to a point with balance where the only issue is whether or not maas are slightly more powerful in duels than other classes (not a big issue and I dont think this is the case) and whether or not a few vanguard weapons are OP.



  • My suggestion would be to not take the 6v6 melee 1 firepot tourny as evidence of class balance. Archers change everything (so might potential for firepot spam within the context of an all melee no firepot limit, though this strat is partially mitigated by archers with heavy xbows.).

    I also would have to see the duel tournament footage, though I don’t think one could say that MAA’s were “countered” as the only people to beat any of the 3 MAA’s that I recognized on the brackets (and there were quite a few more knights and vg’s I recognized on the brackets) were either the first and second place duelists (one of whom duels more than any one in the game currently I believe), the fourth place duelist (cubz), or another MAA. MAA’s still did very well on a whole considering their representation (better than many folks who we would consider just as high-tier players in other classes). Ofc, maybe lots of folks were MAA’s that I though played other classes so that is always a possibility as well :P

    The thing about MAA’s is that at the top levels they aren’t TOO horrific. However, it is very easy to control the pace of a fight against even good players as an MAA therefore, while someone with a knight secondary or a MAA-friendly Vg primary at the highest levels can go toe to toe with MAA’s, the skill demand I feel is just to high.



  • fuck archers


Log in to reply