Operation Make Game Better.



  • Yes that’s right. SDK is done and Deadliest warrior will be released in a few hours.

    But its time torn banner. Time to do the hardest thing any developer has to do (probably).

    Fix the game.

    Yes. You have been steadily fixing bugs with recent patches and adding new things in. Problem is for every bug you fix you seem to replace it with another bug. You’ve made the game more stable and reliable then suddenly it wasn’t stable and reliable with more patches.

    We’ve had our fill of shiny new stuff for now. All we want now is for you lovely bunch of developers to move your focus to fixing those horrible bugs and optimising the game.

    It may be difficult, boring even rage inducing. But that’s what will make your fans very happy. Even more happy than they were when you released the new content in January even more happy than when you released customisation and even more happy than when you released the SDK which is pretty flawless by your standards in the full release.

    You gotta comb that bug report section. Start with what’s easiest first then work your way up. Fix the bugs that we’ve reported. You do a great job of fixing bugs that nobody actually noticed all the time. In fact all developers do that for some odd reason.

    People say you don’t care. You may care you probably do care. Problem is you don’t portray yourselves that you care. What the people say is how you portray yourself. There are some that say you can’t do it. Do you want to prove the people wrong? This is the first step.

    Admin support. Yes do it properly. I don’t know of any server that uses that big brother bot rubbish and it doesn’t even look like your own official servers are using it either. A proper RCON would be nice. But what would be even easier if you you guys to make the server configs actually work. There are many useful server configs like a ping kick and message of the day in there and we can configure them. Problem is they don’t work.

    Balance can take a backseat for now. Its mostly alright. (Except that damn bubble) a few minor tweaks here and there. But in comparison to the bugs and stuff balance isn’t that important.

    How about a TO map competition. People want new maps. You don’t have time to make, balance, play test new maps. We do. And there’s the SDK. Community + SDK = lots of new TO maps. You can start the competition now and let it go for 2-3 months and at that point the winners of the TO map competition (3-5 winners) gets their maps made official and fully voice acted by your wonderful voice actors. And it only costs you a few gallons of beer (depends on how much they drink of course).

    But we’ve had our fill of new content for now. Thanks for all the great work though on the new stuff. Problem is it does hide the problems very well.

    But its now time to get down and dirty into the mess thats called Chivalry Medieval Warfare. Its time to clean it up. I challenge you torn banner to make this game better.



  • For the msot part I agree, although there always has to be a balance struck between patching of current game and developing new games (since there’s no revenue in the former except for potential increased future sales)

    The official servers don’t use B3 to my knowledge. Although having tested B3 it on my clan servers it significantly increases the chance of a server crashing between rounds (although not sure why, might be rcon flooding during round transition). I do agree that severa things like ping kick and motd would be good to have working.

    Game patching though is much more difficualt than most people realise - even if it should be fairly straight forward to adjust, the sheer variety in client computer setups often means a simple looking change can cause carnage when rolled out to the public.

    At the end of the day I don’t think TB are deaf to concerns of the community, but they have to prioritse the work based on what they feel is important, achievable and to extent, financially viable.



  • @lemonater47:

    Yes that’s right. SDK is done and Deadliest warrior will be released in a few hours.

    But its time torn banner. Time to do the hardest thing any developer has to do (probably).

    Fix the game.

    Yes. You have been steadily fixing bugs with recent patches and adding new things in. Problem is for every bug you fix you seem to replace it with another bug. You’ve made the game more stable and reliable then suddenly it wasn’t stable and reliable with more patches.

    We’ve had our fill of shiny new stuff for now. All we want now is for you lovely bunch of developers to move your focus to fixing those horrible bugs and optimising the game.

    It may be difficult, boring even rage inducing. But that’s what will make your fans very happy. Even more happy than they were when you released the new content in January even more happy than when you released customisation and even more happy than when you released the SDK which is pretty flawless by your standards in the full release.

    You gotta comb that bug report section. Start with what’s easiest first then work your way up. Fix the bugs that we’ve reported. You do a great job of fixing bugs that nobody actually noticed all the time. In fact all developers do that for some odd reason.

    People say you don’t care. You may care you probably do care. Problem is you don’t portray yourselves that you care. What the people say is how you portray yourself. There are some that say you can’t do it. Do you want to prove the people wrong? This is the first step.

    Admin support. Yes do it properly. I don’t know of any server that uses that big brother bot rubbish and it doesn’t even look like your own official servers are using it either. A proper RCON would be nice. But what would be even easier if you you guys to make the server configs actually work. There are many useful server configs like a ping kick and message of the day in there and we can configure them. Problem is they don’t work.

    Balance can take a backseat for now. Its mostly alright. (Except that damn bubble) a few minor tweaks here and there. But in comparison to the bugs and stuff balance isn’t that important.

    How about a TO map competition. People want new maps. You don’t have time to make, balance, play test new maps. We do. And there’s the SDK. Community + SDK = lots of new TO maps. You can start the competition now and let it go for 2-3 months and at that point the winners of the TO map competition (3-5 winners) gets their maps made official and fully voice acted by your wonderful voice actors. And it only costs you a few gallons of beer (depends on how much they drink of course).

    But we’ve had our fill of new content for now. Thanks for all the great work though on the new stuff. Problem is it does hide the problems very well.

    But its now time to get down and dirty into the mess thats called Chivalry Medieval Warfare. Its time to clean it up. I challenge you torn banner to make this game better.

    This post needs to be understood by more people that turning the game away from operations is a death sentence. No large population will play the elitist modes primarily.



  • I’m expecting a series of episodic video shorts of the devs working on those fixes/optimizations. ;)



  • @MonkeyFiend:

    At the end of the day I don’t think TB are deaf to concerns of the community, but they have to prioritse the work based on what they feel is important, achievable and to extent, financially viable.

    ^ This.

    Torn Banner is very aware of what needs to be done.

    People seem to forget (Lemon included) that Deadliest Warrior is not only an expansion but an opportunity for Torn Banner to change and/or fix things to make it better along with releasing new content.

    “It’s time to get down and dirty.”….They have been doing that the entire time. They’re working on all sorts of things.

    They know what needs to be done and it’s been mentioned many times. Although I understand what you’re trying to say, this topic is more or less redundant. Also, telling them what they should do is going things no where.

    I’d say the most frustrating part for them, is for people to demand things without knowing what it takes for it to happen of if it is even possible given how the game was built. In due time, they will release things in priority of what they feel is needed.

    As for the map competition, there is already something in the works. Just going over some details then either myself or Kimi will be posting it with all the details for anyone interested in entering.



  • I love the gameplay for the most part. Easily logging in over 600 hours, and I want to play a bunch more.
    But right now Chivalry is the largest steaming pile of crap when it comes to optimization!! There are plenty of examples of indie games from small developers that are well optimized and have driver support from Nvidia and AMD. Hawken and Tribes Ascend are great examples.

    This is me everyday when I play Chiv with ‘stat unit’ running and performance graphs on my second monitor.



  • Less bug, more TO maps.



  • @gref:

    I love the gameplay for the most part. Easily logging in over 600 hours, and I want to play a bunch more.
    But right now Chivalry is the largest steaming pile of crap when it comes to optimization!! There are plenty of examples of indie games from small developers that are well optimized and have driver support from Nvidia and AMD. Hawken and Tribes Ascend are great examples.

    This is me everyday when I play Chiv with ‘stat unit’ running and performance graphs on my second monitor.

    maybe it’s crossfire causing issues?



  • We’ve mentioned that we will be going back to fixing up some issues with Chivalry after DW is released. SDK is not done yet as we still need to get code mods supported. We’ve already got a lot of things coming, so stay tuned.



  • @Kimiko:

    SDK is not done yet

    Is it sad that I’m kind of glad to hear you say that?



  • @Keith:

    @MonkeyFiend:

    At the end of the day I don’t think TB are deaf to concerns of the community, but they have to prioritse the work based on what they feel is important, achievable and to extent, financially viable.

    ^ This.

    Torn Banner is very aware of what needs to be done.

    People seem to forget (Lemon included) that Deadliest Warrior is not only an expansion but an opportunity for Torn Banner to change and/or fix things to make it better along with releasing new content.

    “It’s time to get down and dirty.”….They have been doing that the entire time. They’re working on all sorts of things.

    They know what needs to be done and it’s been mentioned many times. Although I understand what you’re trying to say, this topic is more or less redundant. Also, telling them what they should do is going things no where.

    I’d say the most frustrating part for them, is for people to demand things without knowing what it takes for it to happen of if it is even possible given how the game was built. In due time, they will release things in priority of what they feel is needed.

    As for the map competition, there is already something in the works. Just going over some details then either myself or Kimi will be posting it with all the details for anyone interested in entering.

    You can’t make people understand that’s the problem. I’ve tried to do that it doesn’t work.

    Problem is what torn banner thinks is a priority is usually different to what their fans think is a priority. Which leads to people saying torn banner don’t care and stuff like that.

    There are reasons why the fans think the way they do about torn banner. This thread outlines those in the first person.

    Fans are paranoid.
    Fans jump to the first conclusion that pops into their head and by human nature its always the worst case scenario.
    Fans are very temperamental.

    That’s the case for any game these days. Go on any forum of a bugged game. They look exactly like this one indie developer or not. In fact many games which are perfectly normal are like this in their forums.

    You can just say they are doing the right things and neither can they. No ones gonna believe anybody who says that even if they are. Like I said you can just make people understand. You say TB knows what’s needs to be done. Based on their previous track record and as far as many people are concerned they don’t. That’s the problem. The people want things and they do different things which are nice but not what everyone wanted.

    They need to prove it, prove that what they are doing is right and what everyone actually wants. Once that happens. Then people quickly change. I know its frustrating. But that’s just how the gaming industry is.

    Even a roadmap will make people a hell of a lot happier. Instead of sporadic patches nobody knew anything about. When people know what’s gonna actually happen they don’t think because they no longer need to think. And when they don’t think they don’t get paranoid and they don’t jump to bad conclusions and they don’t put torn banner down at every opportunity.

    It may sound like I’m crossing the line into places I shouldn’t go. But I feel like someone has to say it. A year of telling others that they are wrong doesn’t work. So instead I focused on why the people think they way they do. And it all comes down to how TB portrays themselves. And they portray themselves worse than they probably are.



  • Honestly I don’t want TB to change anything in CMW anymore. They already did enough, let’s not make it worse alright?



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    Honestly I don’t want TB to change anything in CMW anymore. They already did enough, let’s not make it worse alright?

    See torn banner? This sort of talk is all over the place. And its probably entirely wrong.

    Thing is you have to prove that its wrong.



  • I’d say the most frustrating part for them, is for people to demand things without knowing what it takes for it to happen of if it is even possible given how the game was built. In due time, they will release things in priority of what they feel is needed.

    I get that we should be more understandable about how much work it really does take to patch a game, but how would we know that?

    It would be great if one of the programmers or someone from TBS made a post saying, “Hey, this shit is hard. We have to do A and B while doing C with D turning E upside down running away from F while G is pissing in the corner.”



  • @Flippy:

    I’d say the most frustrating part for them, is for people to demand things without knowing what it takes for it to happen of if it is even possible given how the game was built. In due time, they will release things in priority of what they feel is needed.

    I get that we should be more understandable about how much work it really does take to patch a game, but how would we know that?

    It would be great if one of the programmers or someone from TBS made a post saying, “Hey, this shit is hard. We have to do A and B while doing C with D turning E upside down running away from F while G is pissing in the corner.”

    There are people who will take that as weakness and them being skilless. People with very minimal or no understanding at all. Its why game developers don’t actively try and defend themselves as all it turns out to be is a massive flame war between the devs and fans.



  • @OmmNomNom:

    @gref:

    maybe it’s crossfire causing issues?

    Lack of multi-GPU support is one issue. Also, it’s not crossfire causing issues, it’s Tornbanner’s incompetence causing issues with crossfire. Like I said, Hawken and Tribes Ascend: both UE3 games, and both from small developers, run very well with crossfire and in general. Why has TB failed so bad where other small developers have done great?



  • @lemonater47:

    bunch of words

    The way you demand things is exactly why they have been so quiet. In the past, when they have told fans what they plan to do, some fans take it as gospel. They take what TB says and turn into what they want to hear and the expect certain dates for it.

    I find it quite ironic that for however long, you’ve been telling people that they are wrong, when in about half if not most of the cases, they’re right. Now, you turn around and start telling TB what they need to do. You’d use to speak out against many fans and now you’re speaking for them, it’s a little confusing. You speak to them like they have no idea what is happening or what is needed for the game.

    Obviously there are some things that need to be fixed in the game but they know that, fully well, either from knowing and seeing it themselves or all the posts that point it out (so trust me, you’re not “the one that has to say it”). It seems the way that Chivalry was built has made it somewhat difficult to make sure that you fix a bug without creating any new ones. However, some people don’t realize that when you fix a bug, there’s a good chance of creating more bugs, it’s basic bug fixing 101. They do what they can to fix some bugs but given that they were focused on pushing out Deadliest Warrior and SDK, they couldn’t put their full resources towards that. Now, as it is released, it’s the time for them to go over everything and start working on patches.

    Do I agree with every decision they make? No, but I’m not going to sit here and tell them exactly what they need to do or what I think is needed for the game. They made the game, they do what the think they need to do and all I can do is explain what I like and don’t like about the game or their decisions.

    As for how the “gaming industry” works, I’m not entirely sure if you have a grasp on that. Not every studio speaks to their fans, not every studio takes in what fans say and not every studio is like what you perceive to be a video game developer, regardless of size. We can compare this game to Hawken or Tribes but when you look at the resource and manpower then obviously those two games are going to be better optimized, along with they have way more experience.

    “Its why game developers don’t actively try and defend themselves as all it turns out to be is a massive flame war between the devs and fans.”

    By your logic, if game developers don’t try to defend themselves, then why would Torn Banner explain themselves or better yet, do anything you told them to do?

    Communication for a studio can be hard because you have to be really careful with what to say because fans can be happy to hear something but as soon as things don’t go their way, they turn on them, that is how fans work, not the gaming industry. When Torn Banner has something to say that they think won’t one day regret somehow, then they will say something.

    Until then, making posts telling them what they should do isn’t going to get you anywhere. At least when you use to argue against people, they use to come with reasons as to WHY they should do A, B and C instead of telling them what YOU or what YOU think the fans would like. There’s a huge difference in that.



  • Like I said there is a reason for all this negativity against torn banner.

    You can see it in this thread by a few people. There’s even memes floating around about torn banner. Bad ones.

    It all depends on how happy they want to make their fans. I mean did you see the deadliest warrior announcement And the reaction to it? That’s pretty much what set everyone off. When people started saying TB will never fix it or TB doesn’t care.

    Ultimately TB has to change the way it portrays itself. Most people’s impressions of TB aren’t the greatest. I means ask around start a poll.

    Now do you honestly think if TB decides to just fix bugs that people will still be really unhappy? Yes fixing bugs can cause other bugs but hey that’s what the beta app is for. The last couple of patches they have done haven’t been on the beta or if they had been they hadn’t been Announced to anyone so no one could test to find those new bugs if they were there. And the unreal 3 engine is notorious for creating more bugs.

    And just like I said they have finished deadliest warrior and the full SDK is on the home strait.

    Also when they went silent for over a month. That made a lot of people jump to conclusions. Silence is also a bad thing.

    And some people do expect certain dates for patches. Another group of people say release dates are bad as then things are rushed. Really you shouldn’t expect any date for bugs to be fixed. You can really set a timeframe for a bug to be fixed anyway. You could look at the code and find out what’s wrong instantly or look at it and have no idea and take days trying different things to fix it.

    Some people have the inability of reading patch notes and expect other things when clearly the patch notes given out say a week before the patch came didn’t actually say it would of fixed the things they wanted. That’s their problem. You are never gonna make absolutely everyone happy.

    But come on. You can’t deny that fixing bugs and making things work how they are supposed to is not gonna make people have a better opinion of torn banner.



  • Stopped reading on “SDK is done”.

    Do you even know what a software development kit is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_development_kit
    Please do some research before making those claims. The ability to make maps doesn’t mean the game has a working SDK.
    You also seem to have zero experience with TBS’ SDK, because if you did have some, you wouldn’t say that.
    Lots of broken things (which they don’t seem to care, even if you bother to make a detailed report on it), lots of code that we don’t have access to (main menu, autodownload, etc).
    I’ve worked with several IdTech 3 SDKs and Source’s SDK, and this is by far the worst one. It looks more like a SDK for a single player game rather than a SDK for a competitive multiplayer game like Chivalry.
    If the SDK was truly done, the community itself could’ve made exactly what you are asking for in this thread.

    Regardless, even if you erroneous think that making maps is the same as having a working SDK, once one of the problems with the current Workshop system becomes clear (I’ve detailed several of them already, but was duly ignored), the SDK will be done for, rather than “done”.



  • @Cthulhu:

    Stopped reading on “SDK is done”.

    Do you even know what a software development kit is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_development_kit
    Please do some research before making those claims. The ability to make maps doesn’t mean the game has a working SDK.
    You also seem to have zero experience with TBS’ SDK, because if you did have some, you wouldn’t say that.
    Lots of broken things (which they don’t seem to care, even if you bother to make a detailed report on it), lots of code that we don’t have access to (main menu, autodownload, etc).
    I’ve worked with several IdTech 3 SDKs and Source’s SDK, and this is by far the worst one. It looks more like a SDK for a single player game rather than a SDK for a competitive multiplayer game like Chivalry.
    If the SDK was truly done, the community itself could’ve made exactly what you are asking for in this thread.

    Regardless, even if you erroneous think that making maps is the same as having a working SDK, once one of the problems with the current Workshop system becomes clear (I’ve detailed several of them already, but was duly ignored), the SDK will be done for, rather than “done”.

    I’ve already been corrected and I’ve acknowledged that.


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