So I just got to rank 40 and…



  • … and still can’t decide which vanguard primary to choose for pubs.

    As a result basically every time I play vanguard I’m using a different weapon or I switch back and forth and back and forth during a match. Still nothing, so I came here for some opinions. Maybe some pro will help me realize some things I wasn’t aware before and stuff :)

    I’ll start with weapons I know I don’t like for sure.

    • The whole spear line. Those are very powerful weapons, especially brandi, but the lack of versatility makes the playstyle a tad boring.
    • Claymore. Maybe a good duelling weapon but for me a no-no in pubs, I play MAA when I feel like 4-shoting knights and 3-shoting vangies.
    • Bardiche . Its OH oneshots archers and 2-shots knights, but the stab is worthless and I’m generally not a huge fan of how the weapon handles.

    No opinion:

    • Halberd
    • Billhook

    Weapons I like:

    • Greatsword, nothing bad about it, it doesn’t excel at anything but does everything good enough.
    • Zweihander. Had tons of fun with it lately. This weapon is so powerful when it connects! And it reliably oneshots archers and sometimes maas as a bonus.
    • Pole hammer. Actually it’s very similar to Zwei when it comes to power and speed and even reach, but its dmg range is leaner towards the heavier classes. Pole hammer two-shots knights with everything but stabs.

    What are your favourites and why? :)
    Thx.



  • Learning vanguard is ultimately pointless as at high skill levels, you will get punished repeatedly and mercilessly for using it. It’s inferior and will continue to be until the end of time at the way CMW patching is being handled at the moment.

    Knight or MAA have far more potential (especially 2 handed knight as sad as that is to say).



  • I like the billhook. Mine is named Bill Hook. Clever, right?
    I’d say it’s about the 4th best Van weapon. Particularly effective at stabs and a nice wide slash.

    Zwei is probably the best Van weapon and is truly devastating on most maps.



  • @trooper:

    Learning vanguard is ultimately pointless as at high skill levels, you will get punished repeatedly and mercilessly for using it. It’s inferior and will continue to be until the end of time at the way CMW patching is being handled at the moment.

    Knight or MAA have far more potential (especially 2 handed knight as sad as that is to say).

    This ain’t true.



  • @Silu:

    … and still can’t decide which vanguard primary to choose for pubs.

    As a result basically every time I play vanguard I’m using a different weapon or I switch back and forth and back and forth during a match. Still nothing, so I came here for some opinions. Maybe some pro will help me realize some things I wasn’t aware before and stuff :)

    I’ll start with weapons I know I don’t like for sure.

    • The whole spear line. Those are very powerful weapons, especially brandi, but the lack of versatility makes the playstyle a tad boring.
    • Claymore. Maybe a good duelling weapon but for me a no-no in pubs, I play MAA when I feel like 4-shoting knights and 3-shoting vangies.
    • Bardiche . Its OH oneshots archers and 2-shots knights, but the stab is worthless and I’m generally not a huge fan of how the weapon handles.

    No opinion:

    • Halberd
    • Billhook

    Weapons I like:

    • Greatsword, nothing bad about it, it doesn’t excel at anything but does everything good enough.
    • Zweihander. Had tons of fun with it lately. This weapon is so powerful when it connects! And it reliably oneshots archers and sometimes maas as a bonus.
    • Pole hammer. Actually it’s very similar to Zwei when it comes to power and speed and even reach, but its dmg range is leaner towards the heavier classes. Pole hammer two-shots knights with everything but stabs.

    What are your favourites and why? :)
    Thx.

    Well if you’re talking about just pubbing against nubs pretty much all weapons will work if you know how to use them. But from a competitive player’s standpoint…I’d say for sure the Halberd, Greatsword, or Brandistock. The Polehammer is very, very good but only if the enemy team is heavy on Knights.



  • Long spear. I’m a one trick pony, but I do very well on pubs with it. The way you use it is knowing its range and the range of your enemy’s weapon. The enemy takes a swing, but is an inch short, so I jam in a stab as he misses me. Or I stab at an enemy, he thinks he’s out of range but he isn’t. You switch between quick stab and long stab, even good opponents might parry too early or not at all. True one on ones are a bit tricky though, the spear excels at taking out everyone who is not paying full attention, who think they are out of range, who think I am too busy fighting his friend, or who are a bit too focused on my friends being around him. When you fight either more than one opponent, or one opponent who is entierly focused on you, the spear swing is actually quite useful. I especially like using the alt swing as I begin to face away from my opponent.



  • I like most of them but I also use the War Axe when playing Vanguard - quite fast and good damage but short. Also people like to not take it seriously for some reason. And then they die for some reason.

    But back to the primaries: It depends if you play as a “Lineman” (defensive: close to the objective and supporting teammates) or as “Barbarian” (aggressive: rushing into enemies, charging, slashing and generally being scary).

    For the defensive task the most important aspect for me is reach (to avoid teamdamage) and almost never using slash (to avoid teamdamage):

    • Brandistock (the ultimate support weapon - reach damage and even a quite fast stab)
    • Spear (longest weapon ingame and quite fast)
    • Helberd (bascially a spear with added versatility - my current favorite)
    • Zweihänder (the slash is unimpressive but it features good overheads and stabs)

    When playing more aggressive speed and raw damage output are more important to me:

    • Greatsword (reach? check! damage? check! speed? check!)
    • Polehammer (lacks in speed but hits like a truck)
    • Billhook (good for poledancing - its the fastest polearm)
    • Claymore (poor damage but nice for comboing)

    I am not a fan of the Bardiche: The poor stab makes it a subpar choice when holding the line. For aggressive dancing it might be quite powerful because of its long reaching slash and (if aimed right) powerful overhead. But here I prefer the Polehammer - its shorter and just as slow but hits harder in general and I won’t keep distance when going aggressive.

    The Fork - those fast stabs can catch people off guard and its fun to play but in general the damage output is too low to go “Barbarian” and its combined lack of damage and reach make it less effective in line (as you can usually use reach as substitute for speed here).



  • I use different weapons depending on the opponents, teammates and which team I’m on. For example while defending I prefer either Thrusting spear or shortsword, like Evil Minion mentioned, so I don’t hit teammates. But while playing agreessive/attacking I’ll go with Zweihänder most of the time. Then again sometimes it depends on the opponents, for example: I’m in the attacking team and the defensice team got some really good MAAs I might have to use the Spears to completely ignore their dodge. So I for one think that 1 primary weapon is silly, might as well learn how to use multiple weapons and get good at using them all.



  • @trooper:

    Learning vanguard is ultimately pointless as at high skill levels, you will get punished repeatedly and mercilessly for using it. It’s inferior and will continue to be until the end of time at the way CMW patching is being handled at the moment.

    Knight or MAA have far more potential (especially 2 handed knight as sad as that is to say).

    :h1: really? i have seen some rank 40’s use the van very succesfully. they were’nt getting punished, but rather punishing a whole mess of people.



  • Greatsword is pretty much the best vanguard weapon. It’s powerful, fast, and can still drag very well. Quite a lot of range too.



  • Polehammer is just a blunt bardiche, you use it almost exactly the same way as you do with the bardiche.



  • I love the Greatsword. A fine weapon in all respects.



  • I’m constantly switching between greatsword, claymore, spear, brandistock and pole hammer depending on what my mood is and what the enemy team is throwing at me. Greatsword is good for well-rounded jobs, claymore is for tons of MaAs and archers, spear is well-rounded and especially when defending alongside many team mates, brandistock same as spear but with a little more weight for knights, and pole hammer for many knights.

    Pretty much anything else is just “for fun” to me, I don’t really enjoy any of the others as much as these. I love the halberd but it just feels so inferior to me.



  • @Flippy:

    This ain’t true.

    @LordBenedictIronclaw:

    :h1: really? i have seen some rank 40’s use the van very succesfully. they were’nt getting punished, but rather punishing a whole mess of people.

    Most level 40+ players I see are Vans, most 50+ can play anything but the idea that Vans are underpowered is laughable.



  • If I am unsure what to use, I usually default to billhook because I find it fun to play. Opinions on weapons below.

    Swords
    Greatsword
    This is a solid and deadly weapon. It has reach, speed and power and every single attack is effective against all classes. IIRC it can even oneshot archers if you slash their heads.

    Personally I don’t use it that much anymore since I learned that lookdown OH silly strong. I haven’t tested it myself but someone mentioned that OH windup is same as bearded, the release is just longer. That makes lookdown OH devastating since now it has reach, power and way too much speed.

    Claymore
    Broadsword with more reach and 2h animations and 2h flinch. I don’t like it at all, it’s weak in TO and strong in duels and I feel like a jerk if I use it.

    Zweihänder
    THE dragging weapon. It has insane reach and power but lacks speed. That does not matter because it only makes zwei better, IMHO it is the best weapon for dragging and it hits almost 360 degrees around you with slash, thanks silly animations and reach.

    Playing with it feels more like swinging a giant log around rather than sword.

    I don’t use it that much either since it feels way too good. I don’t like weapons that are better than average.

    Spears
    Spear
    Just plain and simple spear. Longest melee weapon in the game and does good damage. Best melee support weapon if you ask me. Boring but extremely effective, especially if you like to feint. Also has great stab drag capabilities.

    The slash does very little damage but is great for interrupting or finishing an opponent. I use it when I am drunk so that I can get positive k/d rating.

    Fork
    Fastest spear. All spears are already pretty fast with stabs and slashes but fork takes it to the next level. Riposte stabs are super fast and slashes can even interrupt combos. Does good damage for it’s speed.

    Less than stellar in team modes but a very good dueling weapon if you want to play with boring spears. I don’t use it at all unless I am joking around and only doing slash with it.

    Brandistock
    Stupid weapon and should be removed from game Arguably the best spear. It has great damage, fast and damaging slash, slow overhead that people usually parry too soon and fast stab that does too much damage. Don’t use this weapon Also has good knockback on slash if some poor fools parries it without crouching. Slash can also interrupt some slow weapon combos.

    I don’t use it at all because if I do, I channel the power of douchebag and everyone hates me and I don’t want that.

    Polearms
    Bardiche
    I have no idea how to use this weapon outside of lookdown OH shaft spamming. It does lots of damage but is basically 2 attack weapon, overhead or slash. Riposte stab is good for vanguishing almost dead foes because polearm riposte stab is balanced hard to read and react.

    I should probably use it more since I know pretty much nothing about it.

    Billhook
    The stabbing polearm. Has great stab and overhead, slash is less stellar but still decent. Billhook’s specialty is that it can go either fast or slow. It is supposed to be a fast weapon but it can also be dragged and many people don’t expect that.

    Best attack is riposte stab. Hard to react and weird to parry since you have to look down.

    I use it pretty much always when I am vanguardin’ ‘n’ pubbin’.

    Halberd
    The longer Greatsword with polearm animations. Longest comboable weapon in the game, also has great dragging capabilities. If you want to duel with halberd learn how to do weird drags with stab, that’s what all the cool kids are doing these days. Also has the stupid great thing called instant overhand like all polearms do.

    I use it when I see someone else using it because then I remember that it exists.

    CP1
    Polehammer
    “I feel like 2shotting everyone today, let’s grab Polehammer.” Yep, 2 shots everything. Everything. Doesn’t have that much reach but who needs reach when you can just stab and lookdown OH everyone in one swift, devastating combo.

    I don’t use it because I hate it.

    ~Fin~


    @trooper:

    Learning vanguard is ultimately pointless as at high skill levels, you will get punished repeatedly and mercilessly for using it. It’s inferior and will continue to be until the end of time at the way CMW patching is being handled at the moment.

    Knight or MAA have far more potential (especially 2 handed knight as sad as that is to say).

    No, go away.



  • People always keep asking me why I believe vanguards are inferior to knights but the answer is right in front of your noses.

    What is the difference between vanguard and knight?

    In gangland warfare team modes, not much. You can swing to your heart’s delight and score dozens of kills. I’m not talking about the mode where attacking from behind is the best way to get kills. What kind of idiot judges a class by their ability to attack from behind (cough archer backstab cough).

    Anyway that’s not the point. The point is… CMW gangland warfare team modes are not the way to measure a class’ balance. They may say they don’t balance around duel mode and they would be right because of the state of 2 handed knights at the moment but before the recent ‘MAA’ revival and then the ‘2H knight’ revival, things were OK.

    Again, I have drifted from my point.

    A vanguard can fight decently well in duel mode/FFA duel and you may actually be moderately successful until you hit the elite of the elite but it is at the elite of the elite stage that vanguards fall to pieces.

    Since a few months ago, I have been plotting down my results from FFA duel, where I frequently encounter the best duelists on EU.

    My win ratio against archers: 97%. (rounded down from 97.1%)
    My win ratio against MAA: 91%.
    My win ratio against vanguard: 98%.
    My win ratio against 2 handed knight: 67%.
    My win ratio against shield knights: 83%.

    The point I am trying to prove is, vanguards are obsolete when you go against the best of the best opposition. What this says is… Don’t bother training as a vanguard when you can use similar weaponry and the same mechanics as a 2 handed knight AND be more successful.

    If you don’t believe me, log in to that FFA duel server at prime time when all the pros are there and count how many 2 handed knights you see. I counted 9 out of 12 total players the other day. 9 Out of 12 total players being 2 handed knights. The vanguard is used by a very slim minority and generally they get wasted.

    I don’t like naming names so work them out for yourself.

    Thanks for reading.

    Credentials:

    10000 total standard duels.
    5000 old duel duels.



  • @trooper:

    wall of text

    You may be right, dunno, though you missed the point of my topic completely.

    … and still can’t decide which vanguard primary to choose for pubs.

    By pubs I mean mainly TO and TD.

    Kreittis, great overview, thank you for the effort :)

    Out of those three: Zwei, Greatsword and Bilhook - which one is the most effective for TO in your opinion?



  • @Silu:

    Kreittis, great overview, thank you for the effort :)

    Out of those three: Zwei, Greatsword and Bilhook - which one is the most effective for TO in your opinion?

    Most effective would probably be Zweihänder if you can use it well. It has both reach and power, both are important in TO. Greatsword is a solid contender if you are willing to sacrifice some reach and power for speed (and combo speed).

    If you are fighting mindless mass of pubbies who cannot parry to save their lives, Zweihänder is a way to go. If you prefer target switching in mass fights Greatsword might be better because it has great combo speed and it isn’t too long. Reach might sometimes backfire when you try to slash someone and random guy comes from out of your view and blocks your weapon.

    Greatsword is also better in tight spots like the rooms near lower ballista in Hillside third objective. Zwei is just going to hit walls and roof while Greatsword doesn’t have that much trouble.

    Play around with both Zweihänder and Greatsword and see which one you prefer. Both are solid weapons in both group fights and 1 vs 1 situations. I prefer to use Greatsword because it looks better and acts like a sword instead of a friggin’ log.

    Billhook on the other hand isn’t that good weapon, honestly. I just like to use it because I love to gimp myself. If you want to compare, say, Greatsword and Billhook the only advantage Billhook has is polearm animations and a little more speed but you do less damage.



  • @Kreittis:

    Play around with both Zweihänder and Greatsword and see which one you prefer. Both are solid weapons in both group fights and 1 vs 1 situations. I prefer to use Greatsword because it looks better and acts like a sword instead of a friggin’ log.

    I was switching back and forth last few weeks constantly, before I decided I need some fresh view on the topic ;)

    I tested the billhook today some more and it’s nothing special indeed. it’s quite fast and reasonably long and that would be it.

    Came back to Zwei (which served me well before) and logged into server with some rank ~50 pros running around as vangs. And suddenly it came to me that Zwei is really slow and predictable for the good player, I’m not the best dragger and felt helpless against them. They were using Greatsword, Brandi and Halberd. I switched to halberd and… started to go head to head with them.

    Halberd’s stab has a great reach and better dmg than Greatsword. Overhead has less dmg vs lighter classes and slightly more vs heavier ones. Greatsword has a significant better slash but the halberd slash isn’t hopeless. I rarely use it though, mainly as a panic helicopter when surrounded. Also the sword is overall faster, which doesn’t mean Halberd is slow. (well, after Zwei everything is relatively fast)

    Stab to OH combo kills a vangie 90% of the time.
    Stab to OH to stab combo kills a knight reliably (you have to be focused on your line of view tho, it’s easy to hit the ground with an OH when even slightly looking down)
    Oneshoting archers impossible, sadly :|

    The reach helps immensely in countless situation, like:
    1. Punishing a newbie, who started his attack too early with a shorter weapon.
    2. fighting a good player, who are running around, comboing and switching targets unpredictably.
    3. Fending off multiple opponents.
    4. Keeping spammy mmas at bay
    5. Fighting a good Maul knight who likes to mouse-drag OHs.
    6. much more.

    Kreittis, what do you think about it?



  • I try to use all weapons with all classes. It’s a bit challenging, especially when there is a new patch and you have to learn nearly everything again ^^


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