Clans Need to Scrim More



  • Clans need to scrim more than they currently are. Tempest used to scrim 2-3 times a day, I know Immortalis got 5 scrims in one day before. But now Immortalis is dead, and Tempest is lucky to get 1 scrim a day. It is stupid. There are just as many clans around as there were before, so why the lack of scrims?

    DISCLAIMER: Look this is going to sound like me being an asshole, calling other clans out. But it’s the truth. And I want to make people see it so hopefully we can make this comp scene a little more active. None of this is personal, at all. This is not rage at specific clans, or boasting about Tempest. It’s well known that Karasu hunts down scrims like a great white hunts seals, and I know that nobody else in the NA scene is as proactive as he is at finding scrims.

    Alright, let’s begin. I know that sometimes when I or Karasu ask a clan for a scrim, they will reply with “We don’t have enough people on.” Unless there’s a single member online, a clan always has enough people on. 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, etc. There should ALWAYS be enough people online for at least a god damn 2v2, and if there’s not you need to recruit more members. Also, ask people in your clan that aren’t playing Chiv. Ask every single one with “Hey, insert clan just asked for a scrim. Would you be down?” It doesn’t matter if they’re playing Batman, or FarCry, or Rome II. It can’t hurt to ask.

    Also clans need to not be picky about the kind of scrims they have. No matter what type of game mode, or how many players, practice helps. Whether it’s a 2v2 LTS or an 8v8 TO. More scrims = better clan. When you as a clan restrict yourself to a single game mode, or a specific number of players, you’re hurting yourself, and you’re hurting the scene. Don’t be so damn picky and just scrim. That’s why you’re in a clan in the first place is to become better and scrim.

    Don’t say no to a scrim just because you feel like you’ll get wrecked. And don’t say no because you don’t like the members in that clan. That is just stupid and selfish. So what you get wrecked? So what your ego gets a little damaged? You get a little better every time you scrim. Scrims make you a better clan, scrims keep the scene alive, and scrims are a lot more fun than roflstomping on a pub.

    Another thing. Let’s say Clan A is much worse than Clan B. Clan B asks for a scrim. Clan A agrees. Now let’s say these clans did a 5v5 TO. It’s not fun for Clan B, because Clan A poses no challenge. The scrim is not fun for Clan A because it’s not fun getting pooped on. After the scrim, both clans leave angry, and disappointed. There is a super easy solution to this, Clan A just needs to swallow their pride.

    Get an extra member. Do a 5v6, 6v7, 7v8, 5v8 if the situation is that bad. This is beneficial to both clans during the scrim. Clan B gets a better challenge, making it a more fun experience for them. Clan A is able to field more members which means all of those members are improving and becoming stronger, and it is no longer a stomp. Clan A can now hold their own making the scrim much more fun and beneficial to both clans. The whole reason clans don’t do this is because of stupid pride and inflated egos on both sides. If Clan B beats Clan A while Clan A has more members, if Clan B are full of assholes, Clan B with insult Clan A after the scrim. Also, if Clan A is beat while having an extra member, their egos and pride will be shot. These emotions need to go away. Scrims are there for the purpose of making yourself a better clan for tournaments, not for your egos and pride.

    Alright I’m done. Scrim more. Swallow your ego. Take it up the ass and hold back the tears. Then later when your clan is stronger turn around and fuck the other one. This is comp play.

    EDIT: I just thought of this. Sometimes when I or Karasu will ask a clan for a scrim, they’ll reply “We don’t have our best guys on right now.” This is so, so stupid. Scrims are there for the purpose of making your members, and the entire clan stronger. Not winning or losing. Grab your nubcakes and make them face the real world. Mold them into stronger players by letting them scrim the better clans. LET THEM TAKE IT IN THE ASS. SO THEY CAN TURN AROUND AND RETURN THE FAVOR LATER.



  • Really? You’re asking why there’s less scrims right after saying “we all know the story of the NA scene” ?



  • @Daiyuki:

    Really? You’re asking why there’s less scrims right after saying “we all know the story of the NA scene” ?

    The story is that the NA comp scene is more inactive than a Snorlax. I asked why there’s less scrims because it seems like we have the same number of active clans post-tournament than pre-tournament. Maybe I’ll just delete that beginning bit since it’s not really contributing to the actual post.



  • Pretty much nailed it.

    The problems I normally run across are
    1. Clans not having enough players. Ya gotta recruit more. And there’s no excuse not to. I’ve passed around a list of 30+ potential recruits looking for clans and I could easily find 30 more just on my friends list. There’s a lack of motivation in recruiting plain and simple. 20+ players is a good number to have in a clan. That way you can scrim multiple times a day without asking your members to be online everyday.

    2. Clans not wanting to play a specific gamemode. If there’s a TO tourney coming up then you should play TO. If it’s an LTS tournament then you should be playing LTS. It’s quite simple.

    3. A clan’s leader isn’t around. So? You’re all big boys and girls.

    4. And last but certainly not least, a certain clan doesn’t want to lose so they refuse to scrim. It’s beyond me as to why this has happened on multiple occasions. There’s no reason to even be a clan if you’ve ever ran with this idea. There’s no excuses either because there’s no way you even lose that bad. Okay storytime, and anyone from Faucheur can vouch for me here. When I was in tB we got curb stomped every night for 2 months by Faucheur. And this was pre-dota Faucheur. Not fucking cool. But it made us better and things finally started to click.

    So if you’re not one of the top clans then you should be recruiting like crazy and having multiple scrims a day for awhile. Having multiple leaders helps in this regard. Please? Because it’s been awfully boring lately.



  • I generally agree; especially with allowing clans to play with more players if they are out matched… Clans flourish when things are going on that are fun. So if you have 2 players on, ask people for a 2v2… and if the fights aren’t fair, change the situation to make them fair (take an extra player).

    I also agree with not waiting to have your absolute best online to scrim. If every clan thinks that way, scrims wont happen. That has been proved not only in this game, but a lot of games. If your clan loses a scrim, its no big deal. People know that the clan didn’t roll out all their best players… bringing your absolute best is for the tournaments… when it comes to scrims, just play.

    Good news is F has been around and Int is making a come back. Are people going to be on tonight to scrim? I’m thinking about it … ;p



  • @Karasu:

    2. Clans not wanting to play a specific gamemode. If there’s a TO tourney coming up then you should play TO. If it’s an LTS tournament then you should be playing LTS. It’s quite simple.

    Well yeah, of course if there’s a TO tourney coming up the priority definitely should be TO for scrims. But if the other clan doesn’t want to do a TO and wants to do an LTS you should scrim anyway. Practice is practice. No matter what gamemode it is you’ll always be getting better.



  • p.s. way too much talk about taking it up the bum in this thread… we should seriously cut back on that. k? thanks.



  • @Mystikkal:

    p.s. way too much talk about taking it up the bum in this thread… we should seriously cut back on that. k? thanks.

    Does taking it in the bum making you uncomfortable, Mystikkal? :twisted:



  • Membership is the problem. Honestly I don’t know what the hell Karasu is talking about. I know Tempest has like 4 billion people, but the rest of the scene is having serious trouble recruiting. Everyone worth recruiting is either on a team already or one of those good player who doesn’t care about competitive. Competitive chiv is a tiny, tiny scene and this problem won’t go away until it gets bigger (which it never will) so it’s not worth even really bringing up.

    Also, I completely understand not wanting to scrim without most of the main lineup present. What’s the point? This kind of ties into my belief of only need 8-10 people on a team. I don’t see the appeal of having 30+ members, except just to have people on all the time to scrim. Honestly, I would never be on a team where I wasn’t on the main line up. And the only real reason to scrim is to prepare for tournaments, which should be done with the main line up.

    Maybe it’s because I’ve lost my fervor for the game, but I just accept that the reality of the situation is that clans won’t scrim religiously until a tournament is close by. And I’m okay with that.



  • This post is deleted!


  • @Conman:

    Also, I completely understand not wanting to scrim without most of the main lineup present. What’s the point? This kind of ties into my belief of only need 8-10 people on a team. I don’t see the appeal of having 30+ members, except just to have people on all the time to scrim. Honestly, I would never be on a team where I wasn’t on the main line up. And the only real reason to scrim is to prepare for tournaments, which should be done with the main line up.

    I agree with this. In fact I think the whole 30+ member “clan” thing is one of the reasons Chiv’s community never took off. If one clan recruits up all the potentials then what is even the point of having tournaments outside of that clan? That one massive clan should be 5 smaller teams who all train together often. “Clans” are for people who want to build a community, not be a great competitive team. Why would anyone bother getting together their own team when they could just be recruited into one of the already really good clans?

    Also, lack of any sort of matchmaking (community or otherwise) and PUGs that actual pub players could get into meant that there was never anyone new entering the scene without being recruited into one of these super-clans. There was never any easier way for teamless players to play competitively and set up their own teams for tournaments.

    Clans don’t need to recruit more, there needs to be more teams. Not “pledge of allegiance” type teams, but “hey these guys are fun and good” type teams. Nobody in chiv is setting up a team just for one tournament or gathering a few players here and there for a 5v5. “We can’t possibly use a couple of players who usually play with DIFFERENT people for one scrim/tournament!”

    Tagging players up and confining them within the walls of their own clan is what makes chiv’s competitive scene the least competitive I have seen to date.



  • @Conman:

    Membership is the problem. Honestly I don’t know what the hell Karasu is talking about. I know Tempest has like 4 billion people, but the rest of the scene is having serious trouble recruiting. Everyone worth recruiting is either on a team already or one of those good player who doesn’t care about competitive. Competitive chiv is a tiny, tiny scene and this problem won’t go away until it gets bigger (which it never will) so it’s not worth even really bringing up.

    Also, I completely understand not wanting to scrim without most of the main lineup present. What’s the point? This kind of ties into my belief of only need 8-10 people on a team. I don’t see the appeal of having 30+ members, except just to have people on all the time to scrim. Honestly, I would never be on a team where I wasn’t on the main line up. And the only real reason to scrim is to prepare for tournaments, which should be done with the main line up.

    Maybe it’s because I’ve lost my fervor for the game, but I just accept that the reality of the situation is that clans won’t scrim religiously until a tournament is close by. And I’m okay with that.

    We have 28 members, ~20 of which are active. No more than many other clans in NA. Can we avoid calling out specific clans on the forums please?



  • In TEMPLAR we never had more than 12 members at one time. I don’t understand why some (even good) clans recruite bad/mediocre players just to have more members when they don’t play in wars anyway.
    It would make sense when everyone would be allowed/able to play. But some people will become inactive, some people are too bad to compete in scrims and most clans don’t have several squads or do several scrims with different people anyway. Best thing is to only recruite as many people as you need and to kick out the inactive members. That’s the best for the clans, the players and the balance between clans and players.



  • @afiNity:

    It would make sense when everyone would be allowed/able to play.

    This is indeed what Tempest does.



  • While I would agree with the comments noting that having too many players in a clan can be detrimental to the community, I also think that there is a large number of players waiting to be recruited. Many players can be built up to be great players after just a week or two of one on one training. It’s also important, if a leader is often unavailable, to have multiple players in a clan able to setup/lead scrims, as Karasu noted in his initial post. I too, can recall when I was in tB and we would get destroyed by Faucheur the twice or so a week we played them. We learned from these experiences and they helped show us some of our mistakes and help us with a few strategies. In addition to not being afraid to repeatedly play and lose to a strong clan, strong clans must also provide helpful feedback! On a similar note, I and a few other competitive players will be looking into introducing a formal training group, where players could go to be trained in dueling/team tactics. There may also be a sort of a clan/team training available. Anyone interested in helping with this sort of thing should contact me through the forums or through steam!



  • I think you guys are clearly missing the bigger picture. All of the reasons posted thus far are, for the most part a symptom of a much larger problem that you all have no control over. That problem is that the game sucks from all of the nerfs and bad patches over and over again. As someone who has ran Kila since 2005 it is clear that the devs have killed the competitive scene almost on purpose. Who wants to play a game where you can never tell if you died because of your skill or a shitty bug?

    The other issue I have found is a huge lack of loyalty both about playing the game, clans recruiting from other clans and clan members who constantly clan hop usually for one stupid reason or another. Most of the worthless clan members want everything done for them. Few step up into leadership positions to help organize, admin, pay for servers, training, recruit and help a clan flourish. All they want is to play with the best team at the time and want all logistics and administration done for them. Very few want to build a clan up let alone even understand what it can take to get one up and running, keep it running and make it even semi successful. This is a direct result of the instant gratification, short attention span, me me me societies that we have been producing over the last few decades.

    I have to disagree with there being more clans. That is just silly. Just look at the player stats on a daily basis. It is usually around 2000 to 4000 max. For a game that sold 1.5+ million copies, player retention is a failure. Thus the few thousand that play a day are mostly the fan boys and clan members. At the end of the day it is still about the game. It isnt fun anymore once you get to a certain level or long time veteran that is consistently finding disappointment and frustration with every patch.



  • @Retsnom:

    I think you guys are clearly missing the bigger picture. All of the reasons posted thus far are, for the most part a symptom of a much larger problem that you all have no control over. That problem is that the game sucks from all of the nerfs and bad patches over and over again.

    Oh I agree, the main cause of the failure of competitive chivalry was complete lack of support by the developers both in direct involvement with the community and in giving us the tools to govern it ourselves. This is coupled with the mostly brain dead general population of the game who thinks it’s unfair if someone is good at something, and TBS for somehow coming to the same conclusion.

    Unfortunately, things like the June patch just seem to be the way TBS does stuff. It’s like AoC all over again.



  • As someone who is currently happy with the balance of chivalry (sure, it has a few minor issues), I must disagree with your first statement retsnom. I believe balancewise, the game is at one of the better points its ever been at. I think the game balance and even clan balance, was proven in the last tournament. Has tornbanner taken an active role in the competitive community? No, and its really a shame. I have seen them work to rectify this though, but still too little, too late. Perhaps it was because the one time tornbanner did get involved (heights TO tourny), the community fucked up. I think our focus is in the right area, if the comp scene can be built up/made better, it will be through more skilled clans and more serious tournaments. Having tighter knit clans with more loyal players will help with this surely, but the state of the comp community shouldnt be blamed on a bad game or bad patches. This is a truly fantastic game that has imo, made many good balance changes in comparison to a few bad ones. I know clans such as Tempest and Faucheur have taken an active role in attempting to build up clans and help the community. All we need is to see more of this. Refer to my previous post for other comments and how to help create more comp players/better comp clans. Additionally, as said in previous posts, there does need to be a better way for players to enter the community. Ideas for that should be posted here. This thread should be productive, so lets not have any more complaining/blame placing, there are other threads for that :)



  • @TheSwordOfTheMorning:

    As someone who is currently happy with the balance of chivalry (sure, it has a few minor issues), I must disagree with your first statement retsnom. I believe balancewise, the game is at one of the better points its ever been at. I think the game balance and even clan balance, was proven in the last tournament. Has tornbanner taken an active role in the competitive community? No, and its really a shame. I have seen them work to rectify this though, but still too little, too late. Perhaps it was because the one time tornbanner did get involved (heights TO tourny), the community fucked up. I think our focus is in the right area, if the comp scene can be built up/made better, it will be through more skilled clans and more serious tournaments. Having tighter knit clans with more loyal players will help with this surely, but the state of the comp community shouldnt be blamed on a bad game or bad patches. This is a truly fantastic game that has imo, made many good balance changes in comparison to a few bad ones. I know clans such as Tempest and Faucheur have taken an active role in attempting to build up clans and help the community. All we need is to see more of this. Refer to my previous post for other comments and how to help create more comp players/better comp clans. Additionally, as said in previous posts, there does need to be a better way for players to enter the community. Ideas for that should be posted here. This thread should be productive, so lets not have any more complaining/blame placing, there are other threads for that :)

    IF the game is crap, few will play it. I dont know how to make that any clearer. The player stats don’t lie. When a single patch kills off much of the competitive players and clans, what is left? When you fundamentally change the combat mechanics to nerf valid tactics, you are doing it wrong. Wow you have 2 clans trying to make a difference. That is laughable considering how many Clans there were and were springing up. But this scenario plays out over and over again. This scenario is quite simple.

    Release a game that, while buggy, poorly optimized and with flaws creates a huge buzz and is fun to play.
    Players increase skill levels, find exploits and Clans form.
    Clans create even more of a buzz with videos and tournaments.
    Developers attempt to fix various issues and create more.
    Clans and community still on the increase and are forgiving for more bugs but hopeful
    Noob players whine about exploits and bugs not fully understanding skill levels
    Developers nerf and nerf some more, nerf tactics by fundamentally changing the game mechanics where skill and experience would have done the same thing. Virtually break the game but hey new customizations!
    Competitive community realize they were shafted again as game is dumbed down and skill becomes less important and the game becomes frustrating and no longer as fun.
    Most leave, what is left is sucked up by the few clans remaining they try and rebuild.
    Cycle repeats.



  • You’re both right tbh. Retsnom has a point about the game having zero comp support. Shitty mechanics. I personally am ok with balance right now but that’s not really the point of the thread.

    Which is why I also agree with Sword. While the folks at TBS are incompetent fools, we should at least be talking about what clans and the community can do. He’s also right about players waiting to be recruited. There’s a bunch if you’re motivated enough to find them.


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