Why I think Ninja is Luck Based.



  • First and foremost, please keep this civil. Listen to understand, NOT to reply.

    To give some background, I have played this game for 300 hours. To most here, that’s nothing, to a few, that’s a lot. I realize that I have a lot to learn, but I feel that I have enough experience to form an opinion. After asking on multiple servers “What is the hardest class to play?” I noticed that the most popular answer by far is Ninja. Intrigued, I started maining Ninja.

    What is skill in this game? I would define it as - The ability to control your variables better then others, and secure a higher chance of success. in short, the ability to do something better then others, more often.

    The first thing I noted about Ninja was the low health. Possible 1 hit kills, mostly 2/3 sometimes 4. Most of the 1 hit kills were projectiles. Thrown dories and pistole headshots were the most common. Now, the most popular reason I got for why ninja is hard was the low health. “You can only take two hits. It takes a lot of skill to deal with that. Every hit is a big deal!” was the general opinion of most. Hey, that sounds reasonable, I thought. But after some thinking, I have changed my mind.

    In a game like Call of Duty, you have little health. (Yes, I mentioned CoD, please don’t run away.) Sometimes, you can be shot before you have a chance to react from behind. What variable did you control that caused your death? Positioning, awareness, etc. are common answers, and they are true. However, what if you had a lot of health in CoD? You could still be responsible for getting shot in the back. But in those dire times when you did not have any variables to control, because you spawned in the line of fire, you would be granted a chance. You would not die, instead, that extra health would give you some more variables to change. You could turn around and, although at a disadvantage, possibly win the situation if your opponent is bad at aiming.

    CoD is considered casual because of the low health. You can kill others and do well by being granted a good variable. (Spawn, Weapon, Killstreak etc) Having low health, and therefore, less variables to control, seems to add a new factor. Luck.

    I believe that if I am playing Ninja, I have less variables to control. More impact to variables (Low HP) does NOT increase skillcap. It decreases it in my eyes, since I now have less of a chance to recover from one mistake OR disadvantage. Lets face it - Sometimes, the enemy WILL sometimes get a lucky hit, and if that lucky hit takes out half of my better variables, then I am the victim of bad luck.

    The other most common reason about why ninja is hard was expected. “The short, fast weapons take aiming to use. You can’t just spam like the spamurai; You have to be careful and aim your swings!” I honestly believe that the smaller, faster weapon is more luck based then the longer, slower ones. Why? Well, people have a reaction speed of about 200 ms. In combat, while you are fighting and focusing on lots of things, that will probably be a bit higher. It is much more probable that you will recognize a slow swing as a swing. You will have the time to identify it and parry accordingly, and even have enough time to plan out actions. With smaller weapons, the time you have to react is smaller. This means that you are no longer as likely to parry the weapon, and use instinct to do so.

    So, how do people hit with slow weapons if they are so easy to parry? Well, with slow weapons, you have to plan your swings. You can’t as easily interrupt enemy swings, and must use footwork and dragging to score a hit. Both of these variables are controlled by you. Fast weapons, on the other hand, can’t be dragged as easily. They instead rely on something surprising; Your enemy. Fast weapons need the enemy to panic. They rely on the enemy messing up his parry, because you cant control your swing and because it is executed so fast. Therefore, I believe that the small, fast weapon doesn’t rely on your skills so much as it does it’s victim. This means that your enemy decides the outcome of the battle, and your enemy is not a variable that you control. Hopefully, however, your enemy is bad at parrying and you get lucky, right?

    I am completely open to the idea that all of my ideas are wrong. One thing is for sure, however. Ninja sure is fun to play! I am not making fun of those who play Ninja. I just want to know why people think of them as the most skill based class. Thanks for reading this, if you did.



  • Call of duty isn’t skill-less and based on luck just because of the low health. But its a combination of low health, the fact the game is 99% ranged and you don’t have to be that good to aim. And if you play it on consoles it aims for you anyway.

    With the ninja if you make a mistake you get severely punished. If you make a mistake or your opponent outplayed you that’s when you get hit. Its not based on luck. You have control over the situation. But so do they.

    The only thing that may be based on luck is a pirate pistole headshot from across the map or a random spear throw into a crowd that just happened to hit you in the back.

    Also hardly anyone attempts to parry in this game. They just don’t try. 70% of people will happily walk into attacks or windup after their opponent has already started their attack. This is why Spartans are great in group combat and do better than they should in a 1v1 situation. Most people don’t even try to block. Same goes for the ninja with their fast attacks and foreign animations that are also silent. The sarrisa. I call it the rofl-stick. Becuase its the weapon you notice people walk into stupidly the most . Some of them even try to attack you when they are too far away to hit you. Its not OP in anyway. Yet you can too any pub with it. Becuase people are stupid and do silly things. Every now and then someone will come up against you who knows how to fight a sarrisa and you get a fair fight

    Most enemies are bad at parrying. Especially with stabs from the longer weapons. Speed doesn’t have much to do with it. Though many people secretly relied on that bubble which was halfed in this game. So the ninja gets a buff there. Many people either don’t know, never knew or forgot that you have to look into attacks when the enemy is facehugging you in order to parry them.

    Pretty much what your saying is every class is based on luck. The whole game is not just ninja. Ninja has more variables than say a spartan who probably the least. But since most people don’t Where the right mouse button is on their mouse Spartans do very well. And their spear throws are very devastating especially against pirates and samurai. Ninja are fast enough and small enough to be a difficult target to begin with. And they can roll of of the way.

    But yeah. Other classes rely more on luck than the ninja. Pirate and spartan definitely.



  • So what you’re saying, OP, is that skill=ability to control random variables?
    This isn’t RISK, you know.

    “Sometimes, the enemy WILL sometimes get a lucky hit, and if that lucky hit takes out half of my better variables, then I am the victim of bad luck.”
    This is not a good argument to say something is luck based. If you get hit, it means you messed up. Same applies to all classes. Ninjas can take less hits because they have are more flexible, making it easier for a player to avoid getting hit.

    Say what you will, but IMO the only real “luck-factor” is alternating ping, since that is beyond player control.



  • @lemonater47:

    Also hardly anyone attempts to parry in this game. They just don’t try. 70% of people will happily walk into attacks or windup after their opponent has already started their attack. This is why Spartans are great in group combat and do better than they should in a 1v1 situation. Most people don’t even try to block. Same goes for the ninja with their fast attacks and foreign animations that are also silent. The sarrisa. I call it the rofl-stick. Becuase its the weapon you notice people walk into stupidly the most . Some of them even try to attack you when they are too far away to hit you. Its not OP in anyway. Yet you can too any pub with it. Becuase people are stupid and do silly things. Every now and then someone will come up against you who knows how to fight a sarrisa and you get a fair fight.

    This is a good point.
    With some players, I feel like they didn’t even see my riposte stab. That was my inner reasoning behind the “Smaller Weapons” segment. If I riposte stabbed a enemy a few times and then just moved erratically and didn’t swing, It would probably cause him to parry. It kind of gave me the intention that the Ninja’s attacks we based around tricking the other guy with hard to interpret actions, which seemed a little shady to me.



  • @B4RK:

    So what you’re saying, OP, is that skill=ability to control random variables?
    This isn’t RISK, you know.

    “Sometimes, the enemy WILL sometimes get a lucky hit, and if that lucky hit takes out half of my better variables, then I am the victim of bad luck.”
    This is not a good argument to say something is luck based. If you get hit, it means you messed up. Same applies to all classes. Ninjas can take less hits because they have are more flexible, making it easier for a player to avoid getting hit.

    Say what you will, but IMO the only real “luck-factor” is alternating ping, since that is beyond player control.

    I think that sometimes getting hit isn’t really in my control. If its LTS, and there is me as the navy blue Ninja VS some random spartan, I think that he could get lucky with a dory throw. Mostly because as soon as the dory leaves his hands, he cant control it anymore. As it is so fast, I don’t really have enough time to anticipate where its going at close range and must move/look in a really weird way to hope it doesn’t hit.
    I think your right when it comes to melee, though. Most hits are deserved.



  • People do try to parry, but they don’t aim it well enough for it to work.
    Give it a few more months when everyone quits or sticks around long enough to make this game into the parry festival we all want.



  • I find Ninja to be one of the best classes in Deadliest Warrior. I think every class is OP in the right situations, but Ninja have those right situations the most often IMO, especially with the bo staff. I personally prefer the ninjato, and I feel like Ninja is one of the “safest” classes you can play because you can disengage so easily. I feel like more weapons should one shot Ninja, because I escape from many situations where I feel like I should’ve died.



  • I agree with B4RK. Games like Call of Duty is not comparable, Chivalry is a lot less luck based. In melee combat almost all the hits you take are because you made a mistake and failed to parry.
    Big long ranged weapons like the No-Dachi are considered ‘easy to use’ because it’s easier to hit people with a long ranged weapon and doesn’t require as much skill to aim. Even a noob can get hits with these weapons by LMBing into crowds or fighting players that aren’t very good either. Shorter weapons require more skill to aim and hit, so in that sense they’re harder to use; you can’t as easily get kills on unaware opponents.

    The Ninja’s shuriken also take skill to use effectively.



  • As to lemonater’s comments, I have to say I find your argument a little schizophrenic in its application. You work hard to say that most of the combat in this game is not luck-based, but insist that projectiles (specifically, you mention pirate pistols) are. And while that may not seem contradictory at first, the fact you can aim those ranged weapons means it is. The only weapon that is in any way luck-based is the blunderbuss, and only because its spread is at least somewhat random.

    You’re right that most players right now are bad. But it’s a fallacy to base anything on the actions of bad players, even if they massively outnumbered skilled players. Proper game balance requires balancing mechanics at the highest levels of play, not the lowest.

    As for OP, you make a lot of good points, sir! However, as stated above in reply to lemonater, I think there’s significantly less luck going around than you might think. Sure, hitboxes are still a little wonky at the moment (if someone hits you with an attack at the edge of your hitbox, it will often look like he missed to third-party observers), and it’s extremely difficult to control combat at all in any kind of melee clusterfuck, but when you get down to dueling I think you’ll find that an attentive ninja has all the tools he needs to absolutely wreck any other class. In that sense, it’s a high-skillcap class; you have more tools than anyone else and will win if you use them right.

    That being said, I see a lot of terrible ninja who think they’re good. In my experience, the class only succeeds in pub matches by
    A.) Flanking characters already engaged in a fight, which is, of course, a dirty, dirty move, and
    B.) Using their massive movespeed advantage to run away from a fair fight and return for the kill-steal when that enemy is once again engaged.

    Excepting the bo, all the ninja weapons require a fair bit of skill to aim when paired with the high movespeed of most of the classes in this game.



  • Well pirate guns have a lot of deviation. With the pistole you can crouch and aim just above the guys head at range and the round can still go to the left of his head.

    Most fools stand up with the pistole anyway and their effective range while standing is tiny.



  • I love this discussion! Great points being brought up all round. If I may, I’d like to share an alternative perspective. (Full disclosure: I’m a ninja main, and I’ve only ever played on pub servers.)

    I fully agree with the OP’s definition of skill - ‘The ability to control your variables better than others, and secure a higher chance of success’. However, I have also observed that everyone on this thread seems to regard ‘success’ as ‘defeating your opponent in direct combat’, with the implications that said combat is face-to-face, in which participants are aware of each other’s presence.

    (Please correct me if I am mistaken - at the least, it seems to me most people assume ‘application of skill’ to mean this.)

    I regard success as ‘finishing the round by accomplishing the round’s objective’. Only 1 game mode (Duel) requires me to do this by excelling in direct combat. In every other case, I am compelled to achieve success by every means possible.

    I’m gonna quote Funkmaster Rick a little here:
    @Funkmaster:

    That being said, I see a lot of terrible ninja who think they’re good. In my experience, the class only succeeds in pub matches by
    A.) Flanking characters already engaged in a fight, which is, of course, a dirty, dirty move, and
    B.) Using their massive movespeed advantage to run away from a fair fight and return for the kill-steal when that enemy is once again engaged.

    Excepting the bo, all the ninja weapons require a fair bit of skill to aim when paired with the high movespeed of most of the classes in this game.

    I freely admit to being a terrible ninja. I often fare badly when it comes to direct confrontations, and I almost never choose to openly face any opponent who isn’t more injured than I am. If I’m ever forced into open battle, I endeavor to nullify it with smoke or other secondary weapons.

    It’s a mercy that I can achieve success without having to do these things. In a Last Man Standing or FFA, there are tactics I can employ to keep myself alive or gain some small measure of success. Oftentimes I’m in a team match, and there are a good many ways a ninja can contribute to team success (in these cases, my definition of ‘success’ lies in context of the team rather than myself). These include:

    • Flanking opponents engaged in battle, as Funkmaster Rick pointed out;
    • Distracting opponents engaged in battle;
    • Setting opponents in battle up for flanking by teammates (which any ninja can do fairly well, if they concentrate on pure defense);
    • Decoying/baiting opponents, or generally acting in a way that causes them to either split their forces or veer away from your banner bearer;
    • Ambushing opponents and/or causing panic, by way of good use of environment;
    • etc, as they come to mind.

    Many of these methods are dirty moves (you expected ninja to be honorable?), but give a better chance of success. This could be another interpretation of variable control (influencing the battlefield). And ninja, by virtue of their secondary weapons, should be able to do these things better than other classes - it’s their equalizer.

    No, I don’t think the ninja depend on luck at all. If anything, they should be the least dependent on luck.


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