Chiv+ Balance: Archery



  • This will be the first of many balance threads that I will be posting in the near future. Now that Chiv+ has been released I want to accelerate the process of balancing the game to make every competitive player satisfied.

    Myself and many others in the competitive scene, at least here in NA, consider archers to be the most imbalanced class in the game. A good archer can turn the tide of a match, and two or more archers can completely lock down the enemy team if the outplay the enemy archer or archers. Archers in Chivalry have the most potent advantage possible in a melee game: ranged combat that can not be effectively countered except by opposing archers. However, they also have extremely effective melee, mostly due to the shortsword, but their other weapons like the cudgel and thrusting dagger are also very deadly.

    Here’s a good example of this imbalance: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204567646

    As you can see, the scores of the melee fighters on each team are pretty close. But our archer, Skillzz, is one of the best archers in the NA scene and completely dominated that match for our team.

    Example B: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=203398315

    Example C: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=198274346

    In example C the opposing team’s archer, bigs, had a significant impact on the match.

    Also, many people in the competitive scene here can attest that, as a knight or vanguard, they have been defeated at full health by an archer in melee. Archers simply are too strong overall with ranged supremacy and more than capable melee. I have seen a lone archer kill 2-4 people in LTS before, using their bow and secondary.

    My proposed nerf suggestion is simple and effective in my opinion, and will allow archers to still be a viable option for any team to have as a support role, rather than a lone player that carries the team, or the dreaded double archer set-up.

    This nerf suggestion is credited partially to Karasu from Tempest.

    1. Every shot fired from a bow costs 10 stamina, and every second the bow is held drawn costs 2 stamina. This will allow archers to fire 7-10 shots in succession before having to wait to regenerate stam. This will prevent them from being able to rain arrows and they will have to be tactical with their shots. Melee players have to manage their stamina so archers should as well. And if an archer wants to make a long range shot that requires holding their draw, it will cost them a decent amount of stamina.

    2. The stamina drain on blocking attacks is drastically increased for archers. For example they could block only two maul overheads at full stamina before being stunned, or 3-4 SoW attacks. This combined with the stamina drain from using a bow will require archers to commit to either ranged or melee play at any given time or waiting to regenerate their stamina before doing one or the other. So if an archer has been firing shots and then wants to go into melee they will have to wait briefly to have any sort of chance of effectiveness.

    3. Nerf the shortsword damage slightly but keep the backstab bonus. This combined with the stamina drain on blocking will force archers to rely on a surprise backstab to have any chance of defeating a knight or vanguard in melee, rather than just being able to charge them face to face, block every attack with ease with no worry of stamina, and spam their shortsword to victory. With these nerfs archer melee would still be viable but would require more skill, thought and patience to be effective.

    4. Nerf warbow broadheads so that they do not one shot archers to the chest. Now I know this one is controversial, and was suggested by Torn Banner back in June and vehemently opposed, but I think it’s a good idea. Right now warbow is almost exclusively the only archer weapon used in competitive play, because it is simply and undeniably the best choice. It is extremely effective against melee targets, can fire at long ranges, and drop enemy archers with ease. Making it so that the warbow was still very effective against melee but not as effective against archers would make it so that the crossbows were used a bit more in competitive play, and perhaps the javelins as well. The crossbows would then be the most effective counter-archer weapon and the warbow would be the best anti-melee because it can fire faster. I think this would be a very good change but I think the other components of the nerf suggestion are more important.

    That’s all, I’d like to hear detailed feedback, support and constructive criticism in this thread.



  • I agree, remove archers



  • I like it.



  • This post is deleted!


  • 7:07 PM - the kobe bryan: nerf the xbows because they didnt need to be buffed with projectile speed
    7:07 PM - the kobe bryan: stamina drain is too much
    7:07 PM - the kobe bryan: it’s more of a case of “no fun” than the balance of the archer
    7:08 PM - Ŧ | Ωmega: for sure, post those opinions
    7:08 PM - the kobe bryan: stamina drain is okay but shouldn’t be 2 maul hits
    7:08 PM - the kobe bryan: i like 3
    7:08 PM - Ŧ | Ωmega: how else would you suggest to balance their melee
    7:08 PM - the kobe bryan: from full
    7:08 PM - Ŧ | Ωmega: i think they should be basically useless in melee without the opening backstab
    7:09 PM - the kobe bryan: im ok with archer melee being okay if their ranged options were nerfed
    7:09 PM - the kobe bryan: because that’s what matters more
    7:09 PM - the kobe bryan: archers should be stalling more than going for kills in melee for teammates anyway

    being that this IS a melee game i feel nerfing the archer ranged and keeping melee the same (maybe nerfing shortsword timing very slightly) would probably be better, and i agree with making archers take slightly more blockstam but not so much that it turns into nofun stamina management 2014



  • This is too good to be true.



  • I find the system in War of the Vikings to be extremely effective when it comes to stamina management, you can only fire 7 shots before having to regenerate stamina, this makes them a lot more vulnerable to getting anti-arched or having to hide for a while. Overall I find this balance suggestion extremely well made and should totally be implemented.



  • I would also like to add after discussing it with Kwazi, Dead Bat and a few others that the nerf in this form would also have to include decreasing xbow projectile speed and possibly reloads, because all competitive archers will likely use crossbows if it goes through in this form.



  • My Ideas for what needs to be done with Projectile weapons:

    -Ranged
    -Bows
    -Broadheads
    Longbow
    Base damage 83>80
    Ammunition 25>20

    Shortbow
    Base damage 62>59
    Ammunition 35>25
    Reload time 1.1>1

    Warbow
    Ammunition 20>17
    Base damage 105>100

    -Bodkin
    Longbow
    Ammunition 25>20

    Shortbow
    Base damage 60>61
    Ammunition 35>25
    Reload time 1.1>1

    Warbow
    Base damage 105>100
    Ammunition 20>17
    Reload time 1.4>1.5

    -Crossbow
    Normal Crossbow
    Reload time 3>3,5
    Base damage 113>111
    Ads time 0.5>0.6
    Ammunition 15>12(22)

    Light Crossbow
    Base damage 98>84
    Reload time 2>2,5
    Ads time 0.4>0.5
    Ammunition 20>16(26)
    New features?
    Ability to move around while reloading
    Reloading mobility 90

    Heavy Crossbow
    Reload time 4>4,5
    Ads time 0.6>0.75
    Ammunition 12>10(20)

    -Throwing Spear
    Javelin
    Throw base damage 115>111
    Ammunition 5>6

    Short Spear
    Throw base damage 105>85
    Ammunition 6>7

    Pilum
    Throw base damage 120>125
    Reload 0.65>0.7

    -Throwables
    Throwing Knives
    Windup 0.5>0.35
    Projectile speed 3000-3200>3200-3500
    Ammunition 4>5

    Throwing Hatchet
    Throw base damage 70>83
    Throw type Pierce>Cut

    You kinda want to keep the one-hits, but then at the same time nerf the damage so that wounding shots won’t deal too high damage, that’s the problem right now.
    Get shot once by an archer in the leg, chest or head and you are already pretty much screwed in a melee fight which is essentionally the problem, so to perhaps lower the damage but at the point where it can still achieve one hits could be a good way.

    Or then again increased headshot modifier and decrease body modifiers

    Ammo count should also be reduced



  • @wildwulfy:

    Ammo count should also be reduced

    This.
    /10chars



  • Agree with all but number 4. Still need a solid reason to go warbow broads and the other nerfs are enough. What we might need instead are buffs to the other bows. Maybe make the stam drain on longbow and shortbow so insignificant that there is more reason to use those bows. And yes crossbows would have to be nerfed as well if this went through.



  • I don’t really care for Chiv+ at all but let me offer you some solid balance advice. Start simple. Don’t try to tweak the archer class to start with but instead focus on balancing their weapons. I think most players can agree that the only viable bow is the Warbow and Crossbow projectile speed is too fast.

    Why not start by balancing all the bows so that the shortbow, longbow, and warbow are all fairly viable? There might be one that falls out of favor but that is likely to happen with three different weapons. It would still be much better than everyone picking warbow every single time. I would focus more on stats changes rather than ammo counts since the problems right rather deep. You could also considering allowing Archers to sprint with the shortbow equipped to add to its utility. After you get the bows into a decent place then you can start tweaking the crossbow and javelin stats to your liking.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    I don’t really care for Chiv+ at all but let me offer you some solid balance advice. Start simple. Don’t try to tweak the archer class to start with but instead focus on balancing their weapons. I think most players can agree that the only viable bow is the Warbow and Crossbow projectile speed is too fast.

    Why not by balancing all the bows so that the shortbow, longbow, and warbow are all fairly viable. There might be one that falls out of favor but that is likely to happen with three different weapons. It would still be much better than everyone picking warbow every single time. I would focus more on stats changes rather than ammo counts since the problems right rather deep. You could also considering allowing Archers to sprint with the shortbow equipped to add to its utility. After you get the bows into a decent place then you can start tweaking the crossbow and javelin stats to your liking.

    Adding stam drain brings more depth to the game and would give more reason to use lb and sb if they had little to no stam drain.



  • Good suggestions, I see the argument for keeping the one shot to archers with warbow broadhead and as I said it’s not as important as the rest. I like the idea of longbow and shortbow taking less stamina to draw, I should have thought of that in the first place. I also like the idea of shortbow being able to fire while sprinting. Reducing ammo count is also another really good idea, since there are ammo boxes anyway. That would help immensely.



  • **What I agree with
    **I like the stamina idea for bows, but I think the specifics need to be tweaked a little, and I think it’s not just bows - crossbows also need nerfs. I’ll get to that in the “My own thoughts” section.

    What I disagree with
    I don’t think archers need a melee nerf. Sure, you’re gonna have a hard time beating one with a maul, but maul sucks, and you know what you’re getting into when you choose it.

    Archers are already at a disadvantage in melee. Their weapons are ridiculously short. They are easily dealt with by MAA and can be dispatched by a feinting knight or vanguard slightly less easily. Obviously the archer has a chance, which is as it should be. However, pit two extremely skilled players against each other in melee and the archer is going to lose most of the time.

    **My own thoughts
    **I think the stam cost should be 5-10 for drawing the bow, not releasing an arrow. It makes more sense physically, and the archer wouldn’t be able to feint out of the shot to avoid the stam penalty. The numbers could also be tweaked slightly for each bow, warbow requiring more, shortbow requiring less.
    As for crossbows, I’m not sure what to do about them. Bigs used crossbow a lot on maps like battlegrounds, since it has better range than any bow, and believe me, it was OP.

    Just brainstorming some ideas:

    • Some sort of “breath” mechanic could be added in, like in modern shooters, where your aim sways slightly.
    • Reloading and/or aiming could cost stam
    • Reloading time could increased - see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs - the crossbow he’s using is pretty much chiv’s light crossbow, but chiv’s is much faster.
    • Arrows and bolts could be blocked by swords like shuriken in DW, pew pew lightsabers

    Personally, my favorite solution involves pew pew lightsabers. It’s not really all that far-fetched - arrows move pretty slow IRL and you just have to knock them out of the way a little. There are certainly less realistic things in chiv, like a gentle tap on the head making it explode.



  • I like Alice’s idea with using stamina to draw the bow (and not shooting it). It was late when I typed it but that’s what I had in mind. And the stamina cost of constantly shooting might be enough of a melee nerf tbh. The breath mechanic is quite interesting as well. Maybe it shakes more the less stamina you have since you’re breathing heavier. I don’t want to nerf archers too much but it is an idea.



  • I like the idea of nerfing broadheads. I absolutely detest 1 hit kill weapons. The fact that bows can do this at range with absolutely no cost or risk is one of the largest imbalances. I also approve of stamina cost for drawing and holding an arrow.

    For a somewhat controversial change, I would suggest removing crosshairs. I think this would be an interesting idea to at least test out.



  • I’m sorry but I really find it funny how Non-EU players sees the Warbow as the “only viable option”.
    Ah the delightfull light crossbow. Perhaps you would like to elaborate, Rumpel? Or perhaps Wulfy? ;)

    Anyhow I personally feel that archers are sort of balanced except for the Light Crossbow and Shortsword. A good melee archer can really do some serious damage with the shortsword. The stamina changes sound pretty interesting but we have to watch out archers don’t become completely useless. As for damage I think some of them could be a tad less effective so you wouldn’t have to sit out for an entire melee match if you get hit, as Wolfy mentioned.



  • Archers in this game are unbalanced because they are shooting targets that cant shoot back most of the time

    archers shouldnt be able to carry a team, but rather be a support class , i think a damage nerf would be good



  • Every archer weapon has been proven to be effective, even weapon suchs Short Spear and Shortbow if I remember exactly. I do not see the whole point where people think that War Bow is jack of all trades, or that it is overpowered. Least from my point of view, I think Bows are now in a decent balance due to the fact that Longbow and Shortbow has way more mobility when holding the bowstring, which is essentionally why we see some people cry about Warbow not being good enough now days, cause they can’t side-strafe so hard as any other bows.

    Reason why there is a problem with Crossbows right now is because they have the huge advantage of having a “Idle to fire” time being way shorter than any other ranged weapon, but that’s how Crossbows are intended to work as, BUT because of that they should have a slow reload.
    Light crossbow at 1,5
    Normal Crossbow at 2,5 and then of course
    Heavy Crossbow at 3,5

    But then again if you compare the time between “idle to fire” time for Bow & slings versus Crossbow, its a big difference, although what would have been nice would be if there was somewhat added this kind of accuracy penalty for moving while shooting, less for Bows of course since they are meant to be a bit mobile, but this would encourage a trade for the Archers, if they choose to pick more mobility for less accuracy, so they stand in a higher chance of not being hit, or they could stand still and take advantage of full accuracy. This would least reduce the dull spasm jumping with bows or side-strafing 24/7 duels, though that is when it comes to Archer vs Archer, best solution overall would be to decrease the damage for ranged weapons, and ammunition pool.

    Cause a ranged weapon is suppose to be a supportive weapon, not one that can take out others very easily alone. You already have the advantage of range afterall :P

    also as for bows, its annoying to try to run into them while they hold their bowstring, so a solution there would be to add a less hold time for longbow and Warbow, or make it so that Warbow has shorter of the current, longbow has the same and shortbow has a slight increased. If you guys want to take a look at certain values with ranged weapon from the live version, I’ve got them listed here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkCaqK9JaJDIdEo3NDJKWkk5SVhRY2tEYjBLSk1xbWc&usp=drive_web#gid=108

    but also, shooting targets from distance is kinda what archers are suppose to do, so you kinda don’t want to nerf it just too much.


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