Imagine if someone made a mod like live



  • lets go back in time and say its summer 2013 again, and we have pre bubble chivalry as your live game and lets say the sdk was ready too

    now imagine someone would have made a mod and called it “balance mod”, that puts the game from pre bubble chiv to CURRENT live

    people would have tried it and would have realized its alot less fun then the normal game and it would have been gotten torn apart and shit on by the community for the ridicoulus changes

    sad but true story :encouragement:



  • Indeed.

    /10



  • And now when chiv+ exists people notice how dumb and unbalanced the game was back during summer 2013 and no one plays it. The only thing I like about it is the removal of panic parry and the bubble.



  • Chivalry -



  • @Xylvion:

    And now when chiv+ exists people notice how dumb and unbalanced the game was back during summer 2013 and no one plays it. The only thing I like about it is the removal of panic parry and the bubble.



  • At the end of the day if you make changes, there will always be some that certain cross sections find unpopular. Personally dislike panic parry but if you look at the various bug fixes and tweaks made since then the game is in a much better state - maybe not for everyone, I concede. But personally speaking my game runs more smoothly than it did in summer 13.



  • @CRUSHED:

    people would have tried it and would have realized its alot less fun then the normal game and it would have been gotten torn apart and shit on by the community for the ridicoulus changes

    True - but they would also like the changes to most of the weapons and feints (referring to the unfeintable window not to CFtP).

    @Xylvion:

    And now when chiv+ exists people notice how dumb and unbalanced the game was back during summer 2013 and no one plays it.

    This. Having the mod based on pre-summer Chivalry was a bad decision. Why not use live Chivalry and cut out the bad changes (bubble, panic parry) - maybe even some controversial ones (sprint lockout, non-chase chase) - while moving forward (by improving the solution to feints instead of scrapping it or by improving hitboxes and stamina system). So much potential. But the team decided to make a step backward instead.

    Well, both versions could still get their shit together. Lets see who is first! :biggrin:



  • @Evil:

    True - but they would also like the changes to most of the weapons and feints

    highly doubt this since weapon balance was ALOT better in the old chiv and there was way more viable weapons then now

    also people who whine about feints back then also whine about feints now the feint window doesnt matter because someone who whines about feints cant read them no matter how big the feint window is



  • The only reason Chiv+ isn’t more popular is simply because it’s a mod that’s not convenient to download and pub in. Most people who still play this game hang around pub servers and just pubstomp all day. Chiv+ has much better mechanics for that and allows for far better gameplay on a competitive level as well, but most of the people who are in Chiv+ are already really good at the game and often bring friends to play with. While it’s still great fun to join and play try hard and own, it’s not exactly the “pub stomp” experience simply because 1. it’s a mod and noobs aren’t willing to download something extra and play on it, they’d rather just hop in the first FFA server they see, and 2. it’s not usually populated because it’s a mod. It isn’t because of it having better or worse mechanics, it’s simply because it’s a mod and requires extra clicks to play on. It’s also not hosted on official servers.

    Chiv+ mechanics are far superior to the crappy “the patch” mechanics in live Chivalry, but it doesn’t offer the solo pubstomp experience because it’s rarely populated or when it is, you have to put on your try hard pants.

    Most people don’t enjoy playing against many skilled high rankers in solo pubs, which is why it’s not as populated as current Chiv, and because it’s not as convenient to download a mod and play on a modded server. It has nothing to do with the mechanics.



  • @SOC:

    The only reason Chiv+ isn’t more popular is simply because it’s a mod that’s not convenient to download and pub in. Most people who still play this game hang around pub servers and just pubstomp all day. Chiv+ has much better mechanics for that and allows for far better gameplay on a competitive level as well, but most of the people who are in Chiv+ are already really good at the game and often bring friends to play with. While it’s still great fun to join and play try hard and own, it’s not exactly the “pub stomp” experience ….

    This is the reason! The most fun to be had in chiv (imo) is in mixed skill servers. It’s nice to fight great players, but it gets a little stressful and tiresome after a while. Similarly, it’s nice to fight noobs and mid levels only for a while, but it gets boring real quick with no challenge. Chiv+ doesn’t give that experience of being able to feel heroic by cutting down a swathe of noobs, and also having the challenge of coming up against the best players on the server. It’s a shame because Chiv+ is awesome, but without a mixture of noobs, mids and pros, it’s just not as fun to play.



  • Honestly, I could care less about the feint window. I know the reasons people dislike it, I was anti-feint when I first started playing. But think about it. The harder the game is, the more time and effort you need to put in to it to get better. Sure, it may not be completely fair. But you know Nabster was going to make changes and frequent updates for it.

    But since the comp scene is sticking with their baby-mode live version, he’s not bothering to fix/change anything. If the comp scene did switch over, like they should’ve, he would’ve made it near perfect by now.



  • I think the comp scene will likely stay in whatever’s most convenient for the most amount of players. It has nothing to do with balance or what’s better. Not to mention in order to even compete on Chiv+, someone has to have Chiv+ hosted on a server for it. They may also need admin powers and there’s just a lot of issues with it.



  • @SOC:

    I think the comp scene will likely stay in whatever’s most convenient for the most amount of players.

    Because most clans play to pub stomp and not to get better. Convenience has very, very little to do with it in my opinion; if you’re able to connect to a server, you can play Chiv+. Having to click confirm and watch a small file download for a few minutes is hardly enough to deter the entire competitive scene, especially with how much of TBS’s crap we’ve had to put up with.

    Not to mention in order to even compete on Chiv+, someone has to have Chiv+ hosted on a server for it.

    A non-issue since most clans in this game have a server or can lend one out, and setting up a mod takes less than 5 minutes if you’re competent.

    It has nothing to do with balance

    It has everything to do with balance. If someone were to make a mod where bows one shot knights and Man at Arms have infinite stamina people wouldn’t play it because it’s simply not fair. Not because it’s inconvenient to download.
    In Chiv+ if the majority of players agree x is op and should have less damage, then gets changed. Sounds a lot more reasonable than hoping TBS does something right.

    I don’t disagree with you and you’re not wrong, just providing counter points.



  • @Kim:

    If someone were to make a mod where […] Man at Arms have infinite stamina people wouldn’t play it because it’s simply not fair.

    Chiv+ does that by using the old stamina system. As long as your enemy does not use a very fast weapon you can block/parry without stamina regaining a certain amount and then just block/parry the next attack. At this point you still got enough stamina to dodge/parry etc. And if you run out again - just block/parry another attack.

    @Kim:

    In Chiv+ if the majority of players agree x is op and should have less damage, then gets changed. Sounds a lot more reasonable than hoping TBS does something right.

    I hope so. But just starting with the old balance is meh. So many underpowered weapons, SoW and Longsword are superstrong (I think vanilla+speedbuff could make them right). Javelins feel wrong, charge makes you a hovercraft (okay - vanilla makes you a plane). Warbow, Crossbow and Heavy Crossbow are the only viable true ranged choices. Polehammer and Flails look badass but are completely useless. The list goes on.

    To be fair - Chiv+ does help short weapons (Warhammer, Hatchet, Daggers, Warhammer, War Axe, Shortsword, Warhammer, etc.) but I don’t count this as “balance” because I already mentioned the bubble as bad mechanic.

    Speaking of mechanics: Feints. Right, you always get those guys who complain and cry about falling for feints never realizing its their own fault. But old Chivalry (and by extension Chiv+) had a very bad concept here: There was no window between “feintable” and “full damage”. This could result in truly unreadable feints without any counter mechanic. All you could do against a good feinter was guessing. Needless to say thats not how a competitive game should work. If there is a mechanic that can be perfected in a way that the only counter to it is getting lucky then something is wrong.

    @Kim:

    In Chiv+ if the majority of players agree x is op and should have less damage, then gets changed. Sounds a lot more reasonable than hoping TBS does something right.

    Yes, same quote! Because everyone is talking about “nerfs”, “too strong”, “op” etc. What about weapons that aren’t good enough to catch up? Why does Chiv+ hate the Longbow, the Shortbow, the Light Crossbow, the Sling, the Sabre, the Quarterstaff, the Claymore, the Fork, the Polehammer, the Double Axe, the Bearded Axe, the Maul, the Messer, the Flail and the Heavy Flail? Probably because they are “bad”. Shunned, forgotten and ignored. Its also balance to provide viable choices across the board and to make them useful in their own way. Thats why vanilla balance (if you don’t count the bubble) is better.



  • There were a few dumb weapon changes (lightsabre claymore, etc) but the weapon balance now is mostly better than before. Before there were was too much disparity between the few “viable weapons” (OP) and the rest.



  • @Evil:

    Speaking of mechanics: Feints. Right, you always get those guys who complain and cry about falling for feints never realizing its their own fault. But old Chivalry (and by extension Chiv+) had a very bad concept here: There was no window between “feintable” and “full damage”. This could result in truly unreadable feints without any counter mechanic. All you could do against a good feinter was guessing. Needless to say thats not how a competitive game should work. If there is a mechanic that can be perfected in a way that the only counter to it is getting lucky then something is wrong.

    This is incorrect. Luck was not a factor in the highest levels of play. If I made a mistake in my movement or timing and left myself open for someone like Crushed or Sophax, not amount of luck or guessing would help. I would just get helplessly wrecked. Doing things like “attacking into a suspected feint” would only really work against people less experienced. Absolute control meant that every mistake made could be avoided by the aggressor. The only exceptions to this rule is MaA and shield knights who have the ability to essentially “force” a mistake (dodging or held blocking) which is what makes both so powerful in 1v1 and often an important part of team-play. (MaA are usually preferred over shields, though.)

    My plan with Chiv+ was to improve all aspects of the game. “Pre-patch” was never meant to be the final version and I definitely would love to see some changes to the game that make as many of the weapons part of regular competitive play as possible. The reason pre-patch was chosen was because it would be instantly familiar as the format that Chivalry thrived on for so long. So many changes were made in the patch to really over-complicate the game that it would be far harder to work back from that than to just start from scratch.

    Because most clans play to pub stomp and not to get better.

    I think this about best sums up why Chiv+ and the general Chivalry comp scene never really worked. Most “competitive” players were more interested in pub-stomping than scrimming. Going 30-3 against sale players was more fun for a lot of people than playing a scrim or PuG. In a way I understand that Chivalry makes mowing down enemies super-satisfying and you can’t really get that in a scrim. Chivalry lacked competitive minded people who would rather lose time and time again and be excited about their personal or team improvement rather than the scoreboard numbers.

    I really, really, wanted to be able to jump back into Chivalry and scrim amazing players until I was able to go toe-to-toe with them and do it all over again when new competition or new strategies arrived, with slight mechanical changes that would increase the mental and physical challenge to keep the game-play ever interesting. I think all releasing Chiv+ actually did was prove my suspicion that very few people (at least, of those who are left) actually care about competition, and about taking the game to new heights.

    I don’t compete any more, and sadly I don’t think anyone really does. Who’s pushing the boundaries now? Chiv+'s target audience doesn’t exist. I’m not sure it ever did in a large enough quantity. This is something I’ve had to accept, but it makes me happy to at least see some enjoyment over the ability to replay the game the way it was the most fun for so many people.



  • actually I have to agree that it is more fun pub stomping in FFA than playing in scrims becuase there are too many bugs, exploits and cheesy and annoying ways people play with certain classes as well, making the reason why you die not skill based but bug based. Thus the comp scene for me personally is dead eventhough the clan still scrims when we can.



  • Pub stomps are more fun than scrims for you guys? I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.



  • @Retsnom:

    actually I have to agree that it is more fun pub stomping in FFA than playing in scrims becuase there are too many bugs.

    This is the crux of my argument.

    Right before the patch hit, it was obvious to those that had dumped in the time that this game fell a part at the seams when it came to high level play. The premise was solid and the basics worked, but if you tried pushing the game further your deaths would become more and more questionable, and the little things stood out glaringly, to the point where several of your deaths could be attributed to inconsistent gameplay and faulty design code.

    Once competitive players had mastered the basics and were executing those to a T, it really came down to the finite details of the game and how strong the limits of the game held up against those playing. This is where the errors started happening.

    This is why several of us tried to get Torn Banana to actually listen to, and fix the competitive side of the game first, rather than make the stupid ass decisions they ended up making. Instead, they threw their hands in the air and decided it wasn’t worth the trouble. They casualized the game, developed a stupid expansion and gave us frivolous aesthetic content for the casual player. During this process, the basics and finite details became even more skewed, to the point where the game really did become just a casual slasher that couldn’t be taken seriously.

    Hardly anything has been touched balance wise since “The Patch”. They simply don’t give a shit about the competitive aspect this game offers, or could offer, because it would be too difficult to accomplish and they can barely keep their current casualized garbage afloat as is.

    Torn Banana lacked the conviction and vision to see this game through as a competitive title. They took the cheap and easy road when it came to Chivalry, and they haven’t deviated from this path since they started walking down it. This is why the whole experience is really quite sad, because the creators gave up on their creation long before it was ready to die.



  • It was easier to pub-stomp prepatch, now you actually need some amount of skill to take down more than 1 player at the same time. Before you could just spam your attack buttons and hit block as soon as you saw an attack incoming, but you can’t do that anymore instead you have to think about what you’re doing and time your blocks and attacks.


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