A Summary of My Thoughts on Balance



  • Okay, so I haven’t made a balance thread in quite a while and that was months ago when I used the Maul and the Maul only and had completely different ideas on balance. I’ve recently reinstated my love for this game and I’ve been thinking quite a lot on what I think needs to change. I will also only talk about things that are not being discussed by other current threads, so I will just say that I believe CFtP should return, the bubble needs to be removed, and that the sprint lockout needs to be removed. Now let’s get on with it, shall we?<br /><br /><br />1. Greatsword<br /><br /><br />The Greatsword may not be the most urgent and important topic in Chivalry, but I find this weapon absolutely disgusting. First, let’s take a look at the weapon’s stats. <br /><br /><br />attack1/80/cut/.5/.65/.6/.8<br />attack2/90/cut/.5/.65/.6/.85<br />attack3/70/pierce/.7/.75/.45/.9<br /><br /><br />Okay, first off, the OH attack(attack2) is very long, especially when factoring in the Vanguard’s run speed its release length, and it has decent damage. For a weapon to be so long and have decent damage to have an OH faster than the pre patch Longsword, that is just batshit crazy. Let us also not forget that the Greatsword’s crouch lookdown OH is incredibly broken. I can remember so many times where I have won rounds on Interitus Duels by just doing nothing but crouch lookdown OHs. Setting pointless anecdotes aside, we need to understand why the Greatsword’s OH is so broken. When someone does a crouch lookdown on a great sword on me, if I try and react to the blade coming at my face, I see the blade only begin to accelerated behind his head, I see him crouch and look down, and then I get hit. All in an instant this happens. The blade does not simply hit you when you see that it does. Why? Does it handle hit? I think so but do we have proof? Does it have some sort of tracer error that causes it to jump ahead of the model at the beginning of the release? I don’t know but it’s annoying as shit and forces you to parry based off of experience knowing the timing of the weapon. This is why it works almost 100% of the time against noobs, trust me, they can’t simply react to it because it’s so damn fast off of a riposte. Not only is a .5 windup far too fast for a weapon that has remarkable reach and above average damage, but when you factor in a visually unreactable handle hit or whatever it is, floaty animations and a lengthy release period, it is just ridiculously easy to decelerate because the crouch lookdown OH on it is so damn fast that you have to parry at least a tenth of a second before the actual windup ends and based off of what timings you know and not what you see. Although draggability is aside from balance discussions(imo), it does give it the reputation of being a noob weapon, according to every experienced non-Greatsword main I have ever met. For these reason, I propose that the windup of the OH on the Greatsword be, at the very least, .05 seconds slower because, even if the crouch lookdown OH would still be broken, the Greatsword’s OH windup should absolutely be at least .55 in the first place, for the sake of balance. The Greatsword’s OH is just simply far too fast for it’s incredible reach and above average damage, this making it a favorable weapon in literally any possible situation, especially in duels, which is the what speed decrease is intended to nerf. Second, I want to discuss the Greatsword’s stab. If any of you have fought a very good Greatsword user like Naleaus or RiptheJacker(idk about other countries), you know that it’s stab is ridiculously draggable, only further adding to its “noob weapon” reputation. This is a minor annoyance because stab drags are countered by aiming parries better, but I do think that it should at least be adressed. Also, let’s remember that Slygoat said way back in the betas pre patch that he wanted drags to be more difficult on many of the easiest to drag weapons, thus leading to the decreasing of the Longsword and Messer’s releases. Well, if you know how to do a stab drag, it is piss easy with the Greatsword. I think that the Greatsword should have it’s stab’s release reduced by .05 seconds. This is also a favor, if anything, because it makes the Greatsword’s sluggish stab combos a bit better and a good player will still be able to drag it’s stabs perfectly well. All in all, I think these minor changes will be enough to balance out the Greatsword and eliminate to a certain extent the “man, fuck the Greatsword” attitude associated with it. For the record I read someone say something very accurate and I have yet to find a single exception for what he said. “The only people who like the Greatsword are Greatsword mains” I wish I remember who said this but do you know a single exception(gotta be an experienced player) for this? <br /><br /><br />Changes<br />attack1/80/cut/.5/.65/.6/.8<br />attack2/90/cut/.55/.65/.6/.85<br />attack3/70/pierce/.7/.75/.4/.9<br /><br /><br />–----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br /><br />2. Grand Mace <br /><br /><small>@Nohbdy111:</small><br><blockquote>The Grand Mace is just simply the most efficient weapon. It has incredibly fast windups, not too bad combos, and two shots every melee class. Gmace vs. knight sword is such a horrendously bad match up in favor of the gmace it’s not even funny. It can hit trade so, so easily with a crouch lookdown OH and that leaves the gmace user at 3/4 health, the sword user at less that half health, and neutralizes the momentum of the fight. And since the gmace has pretty much the same windup as the swords, the sword user is forced to go on the defensive or he gets hit traded and dies. And the gmace is draggable too. Because the sword user has to go on the defensive, that gives the gmace user the ability to delay his OH and, if well executed, will put the sword knight to an end. The same situation even happens to vanguards although it is a bit more difficult for the gmace user to get in range. That is another thing. The gmace’s reach isn’t bad at all! Especially if the person toe taps with OHs, like Kwazi always does to me, causing me to believe the gmace has retarded 2 feet reach extending past its model at one point haha (it does have a but of this though). Sorry for ranting about the gmace, but I think that the notion that the gmace is overshadowed by the maul is just silly. If the Maul needs a nerf(which I’m not questioning), the Grand Mace needs a nerf.</blockquote><br /><br />My proposal:<br /><br /><br />Grand Mace<br />attack1/80/blunt/.525>.6/.75>.7/.6/.9<br />attack2/100/blunt/.525>.625/.75>.7/.6/1<br />attack3/55/blunt/.6/.75/.5/.75<br /><br /><br />Why the combo buff on the Grand Mace? To transfer even more speed over to the windup and because the Grand Mace’s combos are just weird coming after a .525 windup. <br />Why is the windup nerf so severe? <br />A weapon with that damage and decent reach should have never had a windup that short in the first place and there should be at least an iota of difficulty getting a hit with it, as with the Maul. <br /><br /><br />To prove my suggestion, let’s do the classic Grand Mace vs. Poleaxe comparison<br /><br /><br />Grand Mace pros<br /><br /><br />-Better damage overall<br />-Reliably draggable<br /><br /><br />Poleaxe pros<br /><br /><br />-Faster overall<br />-A long stab that two shots Vanguards<br /><br /><br />As you can see, they have an equal number of positive attributes and here is the current comparison:<br /><br /><br />Grand Mace pros<br /><br /><br />-Faster<br />-Better damage overall<br />-Reliably Draggable <br /><br /><br />Poleaxe pros<br /><br /><br />-A long stab that two shots Vanguards <br /><br /><br />Quite simply, the Poleaxe has to be slower than the Grand Mace and don’t argue<br />for a Poleaxe buff. It’s a great and incredibly balanced weapon. <br /><br />–----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />3. My Opinions on Class Balance<br /><br />Now I am going to talk about my opinions on overall class balance. I feel that the melee classes should be MaA>Knights>Vanguards>MaA. Right now, it’s MaA>Knights=Vanguards<MaA. Why? Right now, MaA are 7-8 HTK jerks that have super fast weapons that interrupt everyone’s attacks, have unpunishable feints(not punishable, this has nothing to with readability), and are hard as crap to parry. Don’t think they can’t target switch because of the one handers’ reach because of their ridiculous run speed. They also force favourable situations upon themselves with the dodge, inevitably giving them the control of the fight and also inevitably winning stam wars because of the dodge’s stamina cost. As for, “MaA are OP in duels, but they’re bad in team play” that is complete horseshit. A class doesn’t need to have insane damage potential like the Vanguard to be great. The dodge makes MaA function like a super tank, how sheilds knights should be. They do everything a sheild knight is supposed to but better. Attract the enemies’s attention toward yourself, be extremely hard to kill if they do, and use your very fast weapons to interrupt and harass those who don’t direct their attention to you. On top of that, they aren’t coumtered by any melee classes, not even Vanguards. My suggestion for allowing Vanguards to counter MaA is simple. Make it so MaA can’t parry and dodge at the same time(although I’m pretty sure they can’t all ready) and blocking with a shield and dodging at the same time, and make it so that, if you dodge as a MaA, it will put you in a one second lockout from parrying/blocking, so Vanguards can truly utilize their reach to hit MaA, even if they dodge and Knights will still be countered by MaA because they do not have the reach and run speed to hit the MaA after the dodge. This will force MaA to play at the same level of mind games as Vanguards do. It’s either attack and interrupt the feint or dodge/parry and get hit. I also think that Knights should have the Longsword and Sword of War buffed, as they are suggested in Mike Oxlong’s current thread, to allow them to counter Vanguards once again. I think this will achieve the Knight>Vanguard>MaA>Knight kind of balance that I think it should be. Why does it need to be that way? It encourages diversity of classes and more strategic team compositions in competitive TO. <br /><br />EDIT: I’d just like point out that if CFtP goes live and recovery parry is removed, this topc will be pretty irrelevant.<br /><br />-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />4. Sheild Knights<br /><br /><blockquote>Right now, MaA are 7-8 HTK jerks that have super fast weapons that interrupt everyone’s attacks, have unpunishable feints(not punishable, this has nothing to with readability), and are hard as crap to parry. Don’t think they can’t target switch because of the one handers’ reach because of their ridiculous run speed. They also force favourable situations upon themselves with the dodge, inevitably giving them the control of the fight and also inevitably winning stam wars because of the dodge’s stamina cost. As for, “MaA are OP in duels, but they’re bad in team play” that is complete horseshit. A class doesn’t need to have insane damage potential like the Vanguard to be great. The dodge makes MaA function like a super tank, how sheilds knights should be. They do everything a sheild knight is supposed to but better. Attract the enemies’s attention toward yourself, be extremely hard to kill if they do, and use your very fast weapons to interrupt and harass those who don’t direct their attention to you.</blockquote>Let’s compare the two.<br /><br />MaA<br />-7-8 hits to kill because of dodge stamina drain+actual hit to kill<br />-Can harass and interrupt more effectively because of the incredible run speed<br />-Have riposte<br />-Can sacrifice riposte for even more tankiness of a shield and projectile protection<br />-Dodge negates conventional means of bypassing parries<br />-Force the enemy to lose stamina more quickly<br /><br /><br />Shield Knight<br />-Can take as many hits to kill but it’s much harder to aim your blocks to block multiple people than it is to dodge<br />-Very slow so the fast one handed weapons are incredibly short<br />-No riposte<br />-If the shield isn’t used to gain riposte, you lose half your tankiness<br />-Sheilds also negate conventional means of bypassing parries(expect stab drags and waterfalls but those are countered by just aiming bettet) but you can be kick stunned(even though it’s quite easy to avoid) and give projectile projection<br /><br /><br />In reguards to balancing the shield knight, I think that if the enemy hits your shield, they should have to wait a much longer time than they do currently before they can wind up another attack. A major problem with shields right now is that they just can’t regain the control of the fight in any 1vX scenario because of the shield drop time and lack of riposte. I also think that the shields need a lower stamina drain. <br /><br />Some shields discussions in which I have participated.<br /><small>@rumpelstiltskin:</small><br><blockquote>Shield buff was unnecessary.</blockquote><br /><br />Knight shields absolutely need it and more. Perhaps you think this because you’re a MaA and have methods of regaining your initiative in a 1vX fight. Shield Knigjts still aren’t viable in the beta because you rely on a teammate due to the inability to even function in 1vX. If your closeby teammate dies, you die. Knight shields really need to have some sort of special function, such that if an enemy hit your shield, they will have to wait a good bit longer than they do now before they can attack again. This will increase their ability to act as a melee disruptor tank in a group fight and finally give them the opportunity to go to the offensive and regain their momentum if they are being attacked by multiple people because, right now, it’s turtle before you get stunned and die or try and go on the offensive and take the control of a fight back in your favor in a 1vX, get flinched, and die. This is required for shield Knights to finally be entirely viable.<br /><br /><small>@SHH_:</small><br><blockquote>Shields have always been borderline OP in duels when used correctly. Stamina increase still does not give Shield Knights anyway to retake the initiative in larger engagements. <br /><br /><br />As a shield user, I didn’t find stamina drain to be that terrible. It certainly could have used a slight adjustment, but the biggest problem is the inability to change the momentum of a group fight.</blockquote><br /><br />Yes, shields, much like MaA, rely on dominance in duels, but in a teamfight they rely on a teammate vey, very heavily to keep them away from a 1vX scenario, while MaA are capable of dealing with 1vXs because if their ability to go on the offensive in a 1vX via positioning from dodge, dodging attacks and causing the enemy to go on the defensive or get hit, and riposte. Shield knights are currently just worse MaA, and I don’y even want to talk about shield Knight compared to shield MaA.<br /><br />–--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />So what do you guys think about my ideas? Discuss in the comment section if you agree, disagree, or think something just needs to be changed in my ideas.



  • Holy wall of text.

    Anyways, the Grand mace horizontal got nerfed already, and the overhead got slightly nerfed. I suggested for a 0.55 overhead windup back then, but settled for a 0.525. 0.6 is way overkill. The whole idea of the weapon is to be a knight counter and a hit-trading machine. I might be fine to see it at 0.55.

    I don’t have a problem with maul at all in its current state, except for MAYBE the horizontal wind up buff.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Anyways, the Grand mace horizontal got nerfed already, and the overhead got slightly nerfed. I suggested for a 0.55 overhead windup back then, but settled for a 0.525. 0.6 is way overkill. The whole idea of the weapon is to be a knight counter and a hit-trading machine. I might be fine to see it at 0.55.

    And why am I supposed to listen to this if there aren’t any points to disprove my suggestion or prove yours.



  • For something that has such high damage, the Greatsword’s windup is too fast. Like you said, just combine it with either a lookdown overhead or a riposted lookdown overhead makes the weapons animations desync like crazy and make you look like you are getting handle hit. Couple this with a release time which allows a good deal of dragging to be done, with a great combo time as well, you’ve got a weapon that is (in my opinion) borderline OP.

    I’ve never liked the animations for the Vanguard sword primaries, they never seem quite right and when riposting or tracer manipulation comes into play it can leave you wondering what just happen.

    I support your changes to the Greatsword, it would make it easier to read and reduce (even if just by a little bit) the duck lookdown overheads that can be unblockable at times because the weapons long enough to start on top of your player model and still get a headshot.

    I don’t have an opinion on Maul/G.Mace because I haven’t really dedicated to using them for a while but I will touch on something you mentioned. You are comparing the Maul’s movesets with the Brandistock which I understand, but it also sounded like you think that the Brandistock is currently fine as it stands.

    What are your thoughts on the Brandistock? My opinion of the Brandistock is that it is OP because it’s move set for a spear (fast stab with good damage, slightly slower overhead with insane dragging/damage potential, very fast slash with very good knockback on all of it’s attacks) regardless that it cannot combo makes it too good. Being at a distance to enemies helps you read feints easier, yet with spears (and even polearms to some extent) this eliminates the advantage of staying at good range if you can just feint a stab or slash with it then nail them with the high damage overhead.

    Also what are your thoughts on the knock back on Vanguard primaries?



  • @Nohbdy111:

    And why am I supposed to listen to this if there aren’t any points to disprove my suggestion or prove yours.

    you dont.
    anyway agree with op



  • What are your thoughts on the Brandistock? My opinion of the Brandistock is that it is OP because it’s move set for a spear (fast stab with good damage, slightly slower overhead with insane dragging/damage potential, very fast slash with very good knockback on all of it’s attacks) regardless that it cannot combo makes it too good. Being at a distance to enemies helps you read feints easier, yet with spears (and even polearms to some extent) this eliminates the advantage of staying at good range if you can just feint a stab or slash with it then nail them with the high damage overhead.

    I don’t think that it’s OP but just annoying as crap. The lack the ability to combo really, really hurts. That’s the reason its slash is so good. To let you keep momentum if you hit them or to be used simply as an interruptot like the one handed blunt weapons’ stabs. Right now, if you hit a sword knight with an OH and go for another OH he can just come out of flinch and hit you and having such a fast slash prevents this. But I actually agree, the Brandi is pushing it in terms of balance. I think I’ll model the timings after the Brandi but maybe have the W+R+R be about .25 longer on each of the attacks?

    EDIT: Oh yeah and stab drags are countered by aiming parries better so that’s another reason I don’t think it’s OP.



  • Oh yeah, forgot to say I agree about your Greatsword overhead windup change.

    Also, Nohbdy, you don’t think the brandi LMB does way too much damage for how fast it is, especially if you decide to riposte with it? Also, the quickstab got buffed by an entire 0.1 second speed, which is pretty significant for how much range it has. Overall, the LMB on it is what most people call blatantly OP, and I would definitely agree. The slow stab is fine.



  • @Nohbdy111:

    I don’t think that it’s OP but just annoying as crap. The lack the ability to combo really, really hurts. That’s the reason its slash is so good. To let you keep momentum if you hit them or to be used simply as an interruptot like the one handed blunt weapons’ stabs. Right now, if you hit a sword knight with an OH and go for another OH he can just come out of flinch and hit you and having such a fast slash prevents this. But I actually agree, the Brandi is pushing it in terms of balance. I think I’ll model the timings after the Brandi but maybe have the W+R+R be about .25 longer on each of the attacks?

    EDIT: Oh yeah and stab drags are countered by aiming parries better so that’s another reason I don’t think it’s OP.

    Well obviously aiming parries better stops drags, I’m more talking about how you can cover such a large distance with dragging with a weapon that is primarily a stab weapon. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be able to drag, but I think I can cover just about 120-180 degrees in release with the overhead on that weapon which is silly for that sort of weapon IMO. Try to run past him and he can just slash his way out which has the most knock back of the attacks.



  • I think the Brandistock overall is fine, but it definitely needs a damage nerf on the LMB. Perhaps make the windup on the LMB slightly slower as well. Currently it’s practically the same speed as a Fork’s LMB. I don’t know the exact numbers, forgive me if I said something stupid.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Oh yeah, forgot to say I agree about your Greatsword overhead windup change.

    Also, Nohbdy, you don’t think the brandi LMB does way too much damage for how fast it is, especially if you decide to riposte with it? Also, the quickstab got buffed by an entire 0.1 second speed, which is pretty significant for how much range it has. Overall, the LMB on it is what most people call blatantly OP, and I would definitely agree. The slow stab is fine.

    Oh, wow I thought it did less damage than it does. Yeah the damage on the Brandi LMB needs to be at most Morning Star level(because the Brandi LMB and Morning Star stab have the same speed). But would the same windup and damage be acceptable on a Maul stab? That’s the main question.

    @Flippy:

    I think the Brandistock overall is fine, but it definitely needs a damage nerf on the LMB. Perhaps make the windup on the LMB slightly slower as well. Currently it’s practically the same speed as a Fork’s LMB. I don’t know the exact numbers, forgive me if I said something stupid.

    The fork’s LMB is a .4 windup, Brandi is .5, Fork release is .375, Brandi is .45, Fork recovery is .6, Brandi is .65. Overall the Fork’s slash is about 20% faster.

    Btw what timing do you guys think should change on my Maul suggestion?



  • I definitely agree with the greatsword comments but I am less sure about the poleaxe and grandmace. I think the grandmace’s windup needs to be slowed down because it looks awkward as hell right now. Honestly the Poleaxe, Maul, Grandmace, Bearded Axe, and Double Axe need to have their animations redone because it looks terrible and completely silly once you start comboing different swings.



  • Why slow down the Grand Mace’s release? The only thing that needs to be slowed down is the windup. If we slow down its release that’ll just make it more draggable.



  • Yeah you’re right…you’d still connect just as fast with a slower release so windup it is then. I’m just posting general thoughts while tired so excuse my inaccuracy please.



  • Brandistock LMB turns it into a 10 foot morningstar. Strong balance. Honestly, I wouldn’t have as much of an issue with it if it wasn’t quite so damaging. The slash does more damage to a knight than the claymore does, and it’s pretty much on par with it against vanguards. If the damage was severely reduced so that the slashes main utility was for zoning/creating space then I’d be fine with it keeping it’s speed, but with its current damage potential it’s far too fast. I agree that increasing it’s windup time by .05 could resolve this to some extent, but naturally it would have to be tested first.

    Also about the maul, I’m not really a big fan of the idea of removing the mauls ability to combo. The maul can be incredibly devastating if you don’t pay attention to it, but it’s easy enough to nullify once you do (it acts a bit like a time sink, similar to a shield knight but with less defense and more offense). Take away it’s ability to combo and you’d essentially make it useless. It simply doesn’t have the range to make up for it, and using oddly timed combos and drags is where much of its strength comes from, especially in team fights. As a shield knight I fucking loathe the maul, but seeing it reduced to a 1 strike at a time weapon would be too harsh of a change imo.

    I like your changes to the grand mace, and I would like to see the balance between the poleaxe (which I love so dearly) and the grand more like what you’ve described.

    And on the topic of the greatsword, it is a ridiculously easy weapon to use. There’s 8 patterns for the stab drag. EIGHT. Honestly if you can drag it enough to develop that many patterns on a stab, something is seriously wrong with the release time. Not to mention the lookdown riposte and alt slash can quite literally negate any form of blocking with the shield, as the OH can hit before the shield is even close to being fully raised, and the alt slash can start inside the shield. Just goes to show how much the bubble didn’t actually fix haha.



  • I find the brandistock’s knockback(vanguard knockback in general) to be more of a problem than its damage. I like those greatsword changes though, maybe even make the slash .525 windup. idk

    Idk about the maul either…Personally, I’m fine with current maul, but not so much with gmace and warhammer.



  • I like your ideas a lot. The greatsword is extremely broken and your changes are reasonable.

    As for the maul changes, I’d prefer it if the one shotting of knights was taken away for balance reasons. Basically, just revert the maul changes and nerf the gmace as you’ve suggested.

    Brandistock is completely OP for those saying it is not. The LMB speed and damage both need a nerf and the main stab should absolutely not one shot MAAs.



  • @SHH_:

    I like your ideas a lot. The greatsword is extremely broken and your changes are reasonable.

    As for the maul changes, I’d prefer it if the one shotting of knights was taken away for balance reasons. Basically, just revert the maul changes and nerf the gmace as you’ve suggested.

    Brandistock is completely OP for those saying it is not. The LMB speed and damage both need a nerf and the main stab should absolutely not one shot MAAs.

    Only one shots MaA with a overhead headshot I believe. But even then, I’ve never seen a kill notification saying a spear headshotted someone to death and the fact that I can hit them in the upper torso and one shot them makes me think that something is off. I agree with you however, a spear shouldn’t one shot a MaA.



  • my photographic memory blurred out everything around it

    Hate to break it to you buddy, that isn’t ‘photographic’ memory it is actually normal for most people.

    The vanguard swords are probably the 3 most balanced weapons in the game, they each fit a specialty nicely. Balance/Speed/Drags. You choose how you want to play, than choose the weapon you want.

    Don’t mess with them. The maul is perfect, 1 HTK knights in the head. It makes it a very devastating and scary weapon, however it’s slow speed makes it rather easy to counter. Just don’t mess up when fighting against it.
    I agree Grand mace needs a small nerf on its speed.



  • @Toll:

    Hate to break it to you buddy, that isn’t ‘photographic’ memory it is actually normal for most people.

    The vanguard swords are probably the 3 most balanced weapons in the game, they each fit a specialty nicely. Balance/Speed/Drags. You choose how you want to play, than choose the weapon you want.

    Don’t mess with them. The maul is perfect, 1 HTK knights in the head. It makes it a very devastating and scary weapon, however it’s slow speed makes it rather easy to counter. Just don’t mess up when fighting against it.
    I agree Grand mace needs a small nerf on its speed.

    Except the greatsword doesn’t fit any specialty, because it does them all well, way too well.

    The claymore doesn’t animate properly half the time

    The zweihander is generally fine, but is super, super easy to drag.

    And maul should not have the ability to one shot every class in the game, especially given its ability to combo and the handle tracers with lookdowns.



  • The vanguard swords are probably the 3 most balanced weapons in the game, they each fit a specialty nicely. Balance/Speed/Drags. You choose how you want to play, than choose the weapon you want.

    I never said that it was OP or unbalanced, but I’m try to express that it’s broken. I will agree that the Greatsword is a balanced weapon but it’s also just too damn easy to use because the OH is broken and the stab is too draggable. I would also like some justification as to why you think this.


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