Class Specials



  • I think the current special abilities are a little underwhelming ranging from barely noticable over situational to very powerful. I suggest some chances to leave the basic aspect intact but make them more believable, balanced and special.

    Archer (Backstab): Increased damage bonus when hitting the enemy from behind but it only occurs once in X seconds against a single opponent.
    => Greater focus on ambushing enemies instead of having a generic combat bonus. Somewhat nerfs Archer melee if the enemy likes to show his back.

    Man at Arms (Dodge): Make it possible in all situations but significantly reduce the distance dodged. It should be a swift short movement to avoid enemy attacks or disturb them.
    => Less of a gap closer/escape mechanism and more of a short ranged positional tool.

    Vanguard (Charge): Chargeup time gets decreased but you need to sprint in one direction to charge it up. Slowing down, turning or running into an obstacle instantly disables charge attacks. The attack itself gets sped up but loses air control and some range.
    => Charge attacks should be more believable and scary but come at the cost of temporarily losing some control by commiting to the move (if you want control you can always go with dancing or line duty).

    Knight (Tank): Instead of getting a barely noticable stamina advantage Knights get improved armor: Each attack that hits a Knight is reduced by Y points of damage after absorption. If the final damage is below Z points of damage the attack does not flinch.
    => Wearing heavy armor not only slows you down but has significant advantages. Knights can also fight back where other classes would be overwhelmed by a flurry of light attacks.



  • Archers have bows.



  • Fvonb’s actually got a point. Archers really don’t need a special. Range is their special. :P



  • Crosspost, but an idea for knights that wouldn’t make knight/archer melee match ups so one sided haha.

    @LTTLWLF:

    Also, seeing as there’s mixed reactions for forward chase for all the classes, why not bring it back in some way specifically for knights? It could potentially solve some of the issues regarding how underpowered and slow the knight is, by giving them the ability to close ground fast once they’re in a fight. It would allow more aggression against maa and kiting vanguards, and return some of the intensity to fighting as and against a knight. Any thoughts?



  • I would like to see “archer backstab damage” being only active while using daggers.



  • @Evil:

    Man at Arms (Dodge): Make it possible in all situations but significantly reduce the distance dodged. It should be a swift short movement to avoid enemy attacks or disturb them.
    => Less of a gap closer/escape mechanism and more of a short ranged positional tool.

    This would be fine if you couldn’t drag so much.



  • Thats basically the point. You should still be able to hit a dodging MaA with a medium to long reach weapon when using the right move. Maybe also reduce the stamina cost on dodge to make the dodge>parry combo less devastating. Being able to do a swift move at always any time should be a quite powerful tool even without being able to consistently avoid almost all attacks.

    Having backstab damage only daggers only makes it a dagger special. In this case the MaA daggers should also get the bonus. In return daggers should get some kind of nerf - I prefer cutting down their parry strength (by either blocking only a portion of the damage, having the blocked damage limited to a maximum amount or just increasing stamina costs). I really like this idea because it makes it possible to buff the Cudgel to a point where it can be a viable choice for Men at Arms and Vanguards (it doesn’t take that much) without breaking it for Archers.

    However, if ranged attacks are to be the Archers special Archers should be able to to kick with a ranged weapon.

    Forward chase for Knights only is not a bad idea. The problem with forward change is that it negates some of your opponents weapon reach. But for the Knight this effect is weaker thanks to the overall lower speed. The activation range should be fairly low though to make it a combat tool instead of “aim at your enemy to go faster”.

    Also I would not screw up balance as much as my suggestion (where Y and Z should be chosen in a way that every weapon can flinch - at least on a head hit with your strongest attack).



  • @Evil:

    Forward chase for Knights only is not a bad idea. The problem with forward change is that it negates some of your opponents weapon reach. But for the Knight this effect is weaker thanks to the overall lower speed. The activation range should be fairly low though to make it a combat tool instead of “aim at your enemy to go faster”.

    I pretty much had the same thought (in mike oxlongs thread), making the sprint boost only activate when you’re within a certain range is necessary for ensuring that the knight stays slow until engaged, allowing for slightly better figures than a standard sprint buff. It would also simulate bursts of vigour, which I feel could make knight combat so much more exciting.



  • @Flippy:

    Fvonb’s actually got a point. Archers really don’t need a special. Range is their special. :P

    I’ve always thought it was a bit silly that Archers have such range, and yet for some reason, also get a melee backstab bonus in combat when their weapons straight up 4 shot Knights, 3 shot vanguards, 2-3 shot maa/archers face to face.

    As for the Knight Special, I had an idea that would accomplish somewhat of the same idea as giving Knights the forward chase mechanic. Remove sprint lockout for every class except Knight. Meaning that getting blocked by a knight still has the minor sprint lockout that every class currently gives. This would help limit the incredibly annoying (notice I don’t say effective, but it is seriously irritating having someone run up, steal some of my stamina, and run away before I can even hit them) kiting that every single class seems to do against knights. This would reduce the need for changing any movement speeds or giving back the forward chase mechanic, which are both likely a bit harder to balance correctly.

    I also like this idea because it emphasizes Knights playing defensively, whereas forward chase mechanic boost places a more offensive mindset onto the class.

    Not sure if this would be too broken though, it would have to be tested.



  • @fvonb:

    Archers have bows.

    And slings and javelins
    and OP crossbow



  • Archer special should be projectile spread for arrows and bolts :)



  • @Evil:

    I think the current special abilities are a little underwhelming ranging from barely noticable over situational to very powerful. I suggest some chances to leave the basic aspect intact but make them more believable, balanced and special.

    Archer (Backstab): Increased damage bonus when hitting the enemy from behind but it only occurs once in X seconds against a single opponent.
    => Greater focus on ambushing enemies instead of having a generic combat bonus. Somewhat nerfs Archer melee if the enemy likes to show his back.

    No, NO, and HELL NO. Get rid of it all together. For starters, archers are rear eschelon ranged fighters. Their special bonus is…… THEIR RANGE! This is what they should be focused on. They are a support class. Yeah i know you archers hate to hear that but it is true. If you want to do anything to help them, put a more ammo boxes on more maps or a slightly better arrow count. That is all they need.

    Personally I would also nerf much of their melee by having them take damage when parring heavy weapons on top of stamina loss. Far too many skilled archers have no problems melee 2v1, and even 3v1 with little to no problem.

    Man at Arms (Dodge): Make it possible in all situations but significantly reduce the distance dodged. It should be a swift short movement to avoid enemy attacks or disturb them.
    => Less of a gap closer/escape mechanism and more of a short ranged positional tool.

    This would have to be tweaked ever so slightly. I agree that the dodge is too long but maybe a slightly higher stamina drain would be more appropriate.

    Vanguard (Charge): Chargeup time gets decreased but you need to sprint in one direction to charge it up. Slowing down, turning or running into an obstacle instantly disables charge attacks. The attack itself gets sped up but loses air control and some range.
    => Charge attacks should be more believable and scary but come at the cost of temporarily losing some control by commiting to the move (if you want control you can always go with dancing or line duty).

    Maybe, maybe not. I would like to see a shorter charge up time but currently it is hard as hell to land a headshot lunge stab. I think the solution is to make all Vans do a lunge stab instead of a 180+ swing or swords to do an overhead lunge. That swing can take out 4 players where as the stab might get 2 if they are inline fighting and you are lucky.

    Give that lunge a slight damage buff for torso hits. An archer or MAA should not be able to survive a torso hit, lunge stab from behind. Archers should fear the lunge sound instead of instant weapon switch and parry.

    Knight (Tank): Instead of getting a barely noticeable stamina advantage Knights get improved armor: Each attack that hits a Knight is reduced by Y points of damage after absorption. If the final damage is below Z points of damage the attack does not flinch.
    => Wearing heavy armor not only slows you down but has significant advantages. Knights can also fight back where other classes would be overwhelmed by a flurry of light attacks.

    Flinch is already a pretty broken mechanic specially with mauls and double axes. The very simple solution to this is to buff the actual health numbers slightly so that they can take a pounding like a prom dates vagina.

    The other addition I would add is to add sword collision to the projectile collision of the shields. This would in effect correct many of the problems with the parry system at least for knights. I am not sure about stamina tweaking as I think it is fine for the most part. Just give us the ability to “take a knee” to faster start the regen cycle.



  • get off the archers nerfs guys geez, they already die in 1 hit, how much weaker do you need them to feel like a man?

    want them nerfed then make a mod and run it on your server, don’t ruin them anymore then you guys already have.

    and dnt forget a good player can and will beat you with any class and weapon combo, so nerfing the alreadly patheticly nerfed archers more isn’t gonna make you any better of a player.

    you guys wont be happy till they cant move or shoot and stand still and let you kill them everytime with your 12 ft swords of cheap in 1 hit now will you?

    and you call yourselves competitive skillfull players,pfff



  • @WARSAW:

    get off the archers nerfs guys geez, they already die in 1 hit, how much weaker do you need them to feel like a man?

    want them nerfed then make a mod and run it on your server, don’t ruin them anymore then you guys already have.

    and dnt forget a good player can and will beat you with any class and weapon combo, so nerfing the alreadly patheticly nerfed archers more isn’t gonna make you any better of a player.

    you guys wont be happy till they cant move or shoot and stand still and let you kill them everytime with your 12 ft swords of cheap in 1 hit now will you?

    and you call yourselves competitive skillfull players,pfff

    They don’t die in 1 hit from weapons such as Longsword, SoW, Poleaxe, Warhammer, Flanged mace, Morning star, HWS, Norse Sword, Broadsword…the list goes on.

    Also, Don’t you think it’s a flawed design when the only way to avoid being shot with unblockable projectiles is to have a tower shield raised 100% of the time or to hide behind obstacles 100% of the time?

    inb4 hurrr just zigzag then archer nevr hit u



  • you can block arrows with any shield, so dont even try that.

    and as a downside of you having huge vicious weapons that murder archers easily, not having a shield is your downside just like in real times bro , if you run straight into battle you are a target, so deal with it or use a shield or don’t run so straight the answer is very simple.

    all vangurds need an arrow in the heart/head anyway, most skilless op class in the game, you guys are complaining because you cant click a button and waste them, so quit your whining and zig zag or grab a shield or be an archer yourself its very simple, don’t get the game nerfed for your short cumings or lack of sense in a battle or lack of skill in the game.

    have you ever tried to play as an already way to nerfed archer? its like impossible you die so easy and most maps have no ammo for you either requiring you to die to get more ammo which is dumb in itself, yet you clowns with your 12 foot swords can swing infinitely.

    that is a fair trade as far as it needs to be!

    lets nerf your weapons and sure the archer can get nerfed, until then get some skill or choose a new tactic or pick a shield or zig zag or be an archer yourself.

    the list goes on and on….



  • Archer is ez mode. Are you sure you’re playing the same game?



  • @Pungvarg:

    They don’t die in 1 hit from weapons such as Longsword, SoW, Poleaxe, Warhammer, Flanged mace, Morning star, HWS, Norse Sword, Broadsword…the list goes on.

    Also, Don’t you think it’s a flawed design when the only way to avoid being shot with unblockable projectiles is to have a tower shield raised 100% of the time or to hide behind obstacles 100% of the time?

    inb4 hurrr just zigzag then archer nevr hit u

    As someone who mains tower, let me tell you that your suggestion does not guarantee protection against arrows, haha. Trust me, I’ve been headshotted with my tower raised 100% of the time.



  • (1) The Longsword can oneshot Archers but it less likely than other weapons (headshot).
    (2) Archers don’t have a 100% hit chance, there is always a proability of missing. But I think adding some (minor) spread to projectiles (at least when not standing still) is a good think as it does decrease their effective range. You should be able to hit a torso at mid-range and a head at close range (=/= melee range) though.
    (3) Shields do increase the effective range of archers and their effective damage but they don’t provide 100% protection while gimping the users melee capabilities.
    (4) Vanguards have a natural weakness against projectiles regardless of their strength.
    (5) Easy to use and capable of “skillless” tactics does not mean “op”.
    (6) Thanks to WARSAW for defending Archers.

    –-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Back to topic because Retsnoms suggestions are more important here.

    Take a knee is a good suggestion as long as Knights get an appropiate animation (otherwise it would be “take a shit”).

    Melee collision to shields would cause too many issues with both stamina drain and damage and calls for a much more detailed hit detection or physics system.

    I don’t like a health increase but an increase in armor efficiency could work. But it should be “special” not something ordinary like “buff all resistances by 5 percent points” (see my suggestion in the OP). Also this would - as any resistance change - cause a big mess in balance and weapon competition.

    Same argument for Archers. Access to ranged weapons is not enough (other classes got throwables too) - there should be some gimmick. But this can be “cheated” by using Giantyaks suggestion: Add some spread to all ranged weapons. But then give the Archer the ability to shoot much more accurate when standing still, crouching or - in case of Javelins - sprinting.



  • There’s some damn obvious bias on both sides of the argument.

    I’d say that archers don’t need nerfs, but even getting feinted is nothing compared to the frustration that follows when you get oneshot by an archer at the other side of the map.

    But nerfing archer damage in range or melee is something I’m still against. The actual issue, imho, is that archers don’t really get punished for their mistakes unlike the melee classes do. You can miss all the arrows in the world and still pull out your knife as your opponent gets too close.

    So if drawing a bow/spear/sling cost stamina, you’d have to be much more careful with your shots or else you get fucked up as soon as an enemy gets close and stunlocks you with a single swing.

    EDIT:

    Add some spread to all ranged weapons. But then give the Archer the ability to shoot much more accurate when standing still, crouching or - in case of Javelins - sprinting.

    Please no. RNG spread on a class that relies on accurate hits to succeed is terrible, and forcing archers to sit still to be able to hit anything just kills the fun.



  • @Monsteri:

    There’s some damn obvious bias on both sides of the argument.

    I’d say that archers don’t need nerfs, but even getting feinted is nothing compared to the frustration that follows when you get oneshot by an archer at the other side of the map.

    But nerfing archer damage in range or melee is something I’m still against. The actual issue, imho, is that archers don’t really get punished for their mistakes unlike the melee classes do. You can miss all the arrows in the world and still pull out your knife as your opponent gets too close.

    So if drawing a bow/spear/sling cost stamina, you’d have to be much more careful with your shots or else you get fucked up as soon as an enemy gets close and stunlocks you with a single swing.

    This has been suggested before, and I definitely think it is a good solution that balances their damage output at range with their effectiveness in melee.

    Also, weapon switch in flinch needs to be fixed. If I manage to sneak up on an archer without being shot for 90% of my health and hit them once, they should not be able to get their weapon out in time to block the subsequent combo.


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