2H flinch needs to be reverted to the old values



  • I noticed if you hit someone with a twohander he has absolutely no way of punishing a combo feint with an attack without eating a hit or even getting flinched again, that is if he doesnt have a super fast weapon like hatchet.

    This is bad in multiple ways. Someone who gets hit is getting absolutely forced into a defensive position where he HAS to parry again or read the combo feint, which is not always easy.

    And even if you read it you have to parry the upcoming attack because the feint window is so small, that the guy making the combo feint WILL hit you and maybe even flinch you with the followup attack if you try to punish it by attacking.

    Before this was changed you could punish combo feinting with a simple attack, while right now you can get “stunlocked” into a defensive position, which is bad IMO.

    “Stunlocked” -> guy hits you, doesn’t combo -> attacks again -> you are FORCED to parry because the flinch time doesnt allow you to attack again immediatly



  • Yeah, I don’t like it too much either. It feels really jarring and inconsistent when flinch times differ from 1h and 2h. Vanguards needed buffs, but I don’t think 2h flinch, stamina drain and increased knock back were the answers.



  • lol if someone goes to recovery (doesn’t combo) with 2h or even some 1h attacks you can either beat them or trade, the only weapon you can’t do that against is brandi/spear because that shit is broken

    the combofeint thing he would have to do an extremely fast combofeint in order to get the trade for most weapons assuming you get the combofeint read- i’ve done it plenty of times with gmace, not even handle hit range

    the only weapon that presents that defensive lock situation is HWS stab recovery and brandi- hws doesn’t have too much time either unless they know you’re going to mash lookdown overhead but brandi has a fair bit of time because you can’t really do anything if you get hit with a brandi.



  • I agree with the OP



  • so if a guy hits me with 2h and doesnt even combo and waits with his attack

    and i decide to attack in the window when he waits but i cant because of flinch time

    and then queue up an attack when the flinch time ends

    and it always ends in a hittrade

    lol i dont think i need to explain why thats fucking broken in a melee game

    if you have equal 2h and the other guy just waits a tiny bit with his upcoming attack you should be able to flinch him if you attack earlier, like in the old days, everything else would be stupid and wouldnt make sense



  • @kwazi:

    the combofeint thing he would have to do an extremely fast combofeint in order to get the trade for most weapons assuming you get the combofeint read- i’ve done it plenty of times with gmace, not even handle hit range

    knight sword duels when you do the latest combo feint possible right now and the other guy attacks as early as possible after the flinch it always ends in hittrade

    that is in facehug range



  • if he actually waits he doesn’t beat you, if he mashes you get a trade- it’s not a good idea to go into recovery anyway since if you both groundhit for the trade you lose drag/combofeint initiative

    yeah facehug range shit like that would happen because of flinchtime > combofeint recovery

    but i actually agree on the 2h flinch time since getting less of a window to call out drags/feints isn’t really great, and the brandi flinch is ridiculous

    the new values are too much but old values had some silly things like being able to kill a knight mid combo with a 1hander or getting a trade against certain combo swings



  • I just tested it

    SoW vs SoW

    x hits y

    x goes into recovery, DOESNT EVEN COMBO

    x attacks immediatly after recovery ends
    y attacks immediatly after his 2h flinch ends

    hit trade

    This is so stupid. The flinch time is so long that you cannot go aggressive on someone who DOESNT EVEN COMBO and waits till his long recovery is over.

    Its really bad for people who like to avoid hittrades and try to outsmart your opponent instead of going brute force on them

    I know its not a good idea to go into recovery kwazi, i was just making and example how long the 2h flinch is right now.

    Before this change was made, you could go aggressive the second you saw your enemy waiting with his attack, and always flinch him if he went for hittrade. Now thats not possible anymore and its frustrating as hell.



  • Yeah not to mention the brandi and that stuff in general



  • To be fair the twohanded Knight swords are somewhat sluggish currently. It might be best to make flinch times dependent on weapons or even attacks (as suggested in another topic) and only keep the long flinch for the slowest weapons.

    But then you shouldn’t also get caught during windup when going aggressive meaning IF the opponent goes into combo he should have the upper hand (and might flinch you again if you try to attack after flinch time ends).



  • When was going into combo not having the upper hand after a hit?

    Its just not 2h knight swords, the same problem exists with vanguard aswell its many weapons actually. Its a big problem, but more in high level play.



  • There is a problem when your release+combo time is longer than the enemies flinch+windup time. In this case the enemy is able to flinch you when attacking right after flinch time ends.

    Arguably flinch+windup should also be longer than release+recovery to give you the chance to parry (recovery parry does not count) your opponents attack after flinching him even if you go into recovery. Especially without CFtP because otherwise you would be forced to hittrade or panic parry.



  • oh yeah, can’t forget about the quarterstaff having 2h flinch values, ultimate 1 hit wonder weapon with optional combo feint mixups



  • Evil minion are you refering to the fast onehanders that used to interrupt delayed combos?



  • I agree with the OP.



  • @kwazi:

    oh yeah, can’t forget about the quarterstaff having 2h flinch values, ultimate 1 hit wonder weapon with optional combo feint mixups

    oh boy i totally forgot about the quarterstaff



  • @CRUSHED:

    Evil minion are you refering to the fast onehanders that used to interrupt delayed combos?

    I am referring to the following
    (0) Player A uses a slow weapon, Player B a fast one
    (1) A in windup, B starts windup
    (2) A starts release, B still in windup
    (3) A hits B, B gets flinched
    (4) A still during release, B in flinch
    (5) A ends release starts combo, B in flinch
    (6) A still during combo, B ends flinch starts windup
    (7) A still during combo, B ends windup
    (8) B hits A, A gets flinched

    This is possible with 0.8 flinch time on Maul or Zweihänder when fighting a fast onehanded weapon (with really bad luck “fast onehanded weapon” also includes the Warhammer which has a 0.45s windup time).



  • Ahah, I knew there was something not quite right. Thanks for reminding me this was in the game.

    I agree that it should be revised.



  • That was never possible on perfect combos and extremely risky because you dont want to hittrade with a maul

    This was indeed possible on delayed combos, but perfect combos that are 100% spot on, it wasnt possible, unless you sidestepped, which is fine. IMO

    and even if this happens you can CFTP the attack easily and riposte of it for a really fast swap



  • @Evil:

    I am referring to the following
    (0) Player A uses a slow weapon, Player B a fast one
    (1) A in windup, B starts windup
    (2) A starts release, B still in windup
    (3) A hits B, B gets flinched
    (4) A still during release, B in flinch
    (5) A ends release starts combo, B in flinch
    (6) A still during combo, B ends flinch starts windup
    (7) A still during combo, B ends windup
    (8) B hits A, A gets flinched

    This is possible with 0.8 flinch time on Maul or Zweihänder when fighting a fast onehanded weapon (with really bad luck “fast onehanded weapon” also includes the Warhammer which has a 0.45s windup time).

    You’re right, but it seems silly to create so many problems with MOST weapons for the sake of a few. These are special cases and I believe that proficient users of the weapons involved will be able to develop workarounds to these problems. If all weapons had the same quirks, there wouldn’t be much interesting variety, would there?


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