Question about the Messer



  • The spreadsheet(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AroL-S9AXRAndFI3cmM2dzZRX2dFUnNfRWRpcENLa1E#gid=77) shows that the Messer deals 99 Cut damage on it’s slash, and 90 Chop damage on it’s overhead. Dafuq?(<–that is a real question)

    This makes the overhead still the attack of choice against Knights but the other classes(especially against archers) are dealt with better with the slash attack, by a small margin.

    Why on earth do the overhead and the slash attacks different damage typings? Seems kinda off to me.



  • imo
    all these values are run off a formula that’s dealt with by the force of your weapon and where it hits them etc, so it doesn’t matter what it says itll do, it will rarely actually do that much damage on any swings rated value because you will never hit the exact spot the exact same way or swing it 100% perfect to get that rated value.



  • @WARSAW:

    imo
    all these values are run off a formula that’s dealt with by the force of your weapon and where it hits them etc, so it doesn’t matter what it says itll do, it will rarely actually do that much damage on any swings rated value because you will never hit the exact spot the exact same way or swing it 100% perfect to get that rated value.

    I’m pretty sure this isn’t Mount&Blade.



  • This post is deleted!


  • well with over 3000 hrs in the game and rank 57 I can tell you imo I dnt care what the value chart says as it is inaccurate in relation to every swing and what damage you actually will do my friend because of the way the formula works.

    test it yourself brotha, only perfectly timed, angled and swung hits will do the maximum rated damage,
    common sense would also suggest this



  • For melee weapons you should assue that the majority of your attacks will do torso damage. Better players will have a higher ratio of head hits and some special moves (like the twohanded sword side drag overhead) have a higher ratio of leg hits

    You can justify the different damage types by the Messer (and Falchion) being a cleaver-like weapon and overheads represent a heavy strike from above that works similar to an axe strike. The slash on the other side is meant to be more of a slicing attack making increased use of the weapons cutting edge and less use of its weight.

    This still does not justify the increased base damage though. Here the damage types come into play. Because the averge cutting resistance is higher than the average chopping resistance a cutting attack needs to deal ~10% more damage than a chopping attack to be equally effective (on average*). But thats only a rule of thumb and fluctuates depending on the hits a weapon needs to kill.

    So in theory chopping attacks should be better against Knights while cutting attacks are better against Archers and Men at Arms*. Against Vanguards both should be about equally effective. This is exploited for the Bardiche where the overhead deals cutting damage and the slash deals chopping damage**.

    For the Messer though - its gone bad. Even in theory (looking at the relative damage values) the slash would be as good as the overhead (which is questionable on its own right) - but in reality (looking at the absolute damage values/hits to kill) its even stronger. Thats because 99 cutting damage are just enough to twoshot a Knight if you are lucky (aka “hit his head”) and usually (on torso hit) both attacks threshot Knights. So the overheads advantage is reduced to some excess damage and hitting the legs*** while the slash is much better against lighter classes, easier to hit (its a slash) and just as good against Vanguards.

    In my opinion making the Messer a slashing weapon was a bad decision. Less because of the damage type (you can justify that) but because of the overall power of the slash attack. If would suggest a nerf here (like cutting down the damage to 90-95).

    *Keep in mind that their overall armor is much lower - thats why Knights count “double” in this regard.
    **You cannot justify this by other than gameplay arguments - its just to better differentiate between Bardiche and Polehammer by the means mentioned above.
    ***Has some effect - see twohanded sword side drag.



  • I always felt it was weird when I could 1 shot archers easier with a LMB to the head, even in 1h, than with overheads. It feels like I can never oneshot archers with an overhead messer, even though I do it so much with an LMB. I thought it was just me.



  • it’s a big heavy sword, it should be an overheading slashing kind of weapon, it’s pokes suck.



  • @50ShadesofClay:

    it’s a big heavy sword, it should be an overheading slashing kind of weapon, it’s pokes suck.

    It’s actually big, not-so-heavy knife. Real kriegsmesser weights about same as longsword if not less.

    @WARSAW:

    well with over 3000 hrs in the game and rank 57 I can tell you imo I dnt care what the value chart says as it is inaccurate in relation to every swing and what damage you actually will do my friend because of the way the formula works.

    test it yourself brotha, only perfectly timed, angled and swung hits will do the maximum rated damage,
    common sense would also suggest this

    I don’t know what you are smoking but damage is binary in this game. You hit with attack and it does specific amounts of damage. No more, no less. Only variable is the location you hit. If you hit head, it does more damage, if you hit torso, it does “normal” damage, if you hit legs, it does less damage.

    Anyway, the messer got kinda overbuffed in The Patch. It completely overshadows two other knight swords in TO enviroment. And that stab isn’t even that bad, it has great dragging potential and someone said in other thread that it does same amount of damage as longsword stab.



  • Just for some balancing matters, but even if so. Messer got really broke after it was blindly buffed in CU1 Patch 2.



  • @wildwulfy:

    Just for some balancing matters, but even if so. Messer got really broke after it was blindly buffed in CU1 Patch 2.

    I think the reason it was buffed was because it wasn’t as good as the old longsword and SoW, but I felt like that was mostly because of its long recovery. Since recovery meant nothing after recovery parry, the buffs put it over the edge. However, I think it only needs slight nerfs and the longsword and SoW need re-buffing: I’ve always liked the messer and I’ve enjoyed being able to use it again, but I’m tired of it being the only viable pub bastard sword. Also, I’ve always thought it was very good in 1h.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw0GljEn-Qw

    This was my first time ever seeing a “messer” so I always assumed it was for 1h anyway haha.



  • Lol i remember going 60-1 with the old messer on a full to

    i know thats not a good measure of balance but just saying even the old messer was decent already

    and they nerfed my beloved falchion to trash tier… NOBODY used it in the EU competitive scene but me… ofcourse it gets fucking nerfed to shit lol



  • @SOC:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw0GljEn-Qw

    This was my first time ever seeing a “messer” so I always assumed it was for 1h anyway haha.

    “Messer” is a category of weapons, like a “sword” is. There are different types of messers, the one in the video is one handed version called langes messer.

    Then there is the kriegsmesser. Kriegsmesser was the longsword for common folk when only nobles were allowed to carry swords. I assume the one in the game is supposed to be kriegsmesser.



  • Right. The weapon “Langes Messer”/“Bauernwehr” is similar to a longer Falchion and was wielded in one hand (like a cutlass). The Chivalry version is probably the weapon “Großes Messer” - an oversized sabre.

    As for the Falchion: Just like the Messer could need a slash nerf the Falchion could need a slash buff. It was hit much too hard here. I would like it to stay cutting damage just like the Messers slash but also decreasing the base damage was too much (suggestion: Messer slash base damage 99>90 and Falchion slash base damage 65>70)

    Another idea is converting both to pure cutting damage but increasing the base values (Messer slash base 99>90, overhead chop>cut 90>99; Falchion slash base 65>70, overhead chop>cut 75>80).



  • Falchion was never op or needed any nerfs lol.



  • Does that contradict “it was hit much too hard”? No.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Falchion was never op or needed any nerfs lol.

    Falchion was OP for a long time, same with the flanged mace but the falchion was far more OP. It could two shot knights with two LMBs and was harder to parry than hatchets. How was that not OP? And back then, shields weren’t garbage either and vanguards were in their bad state.

    Now, I do think it could use a little love but I think with a lot of fundamental mechanic changes like the bubble, shields being buffed, vanguard knock back/stam drain reduced, combo feint to parry returning ect. would help the falchion out a lot inherently. I definitely don’t want it returning to that “OP bird sword” it used to be.



  • Falchion never 2shotted knights



  • @SOC:

    It could two shot knights with two LMBs and was harder to parry than hatchets.

    Not. And it was harder to parry because its longer and aiming at the tip was not intuitive because of the curvature (most people instinctively aim below the tip).

    But being able to kill a Knight with three torso slashes was probably a little strong. But simply changing the damage to cutting would have been enough here. Also nerfing the base damage was too much.



  • 2 headshots?
    I never thought falchion was OP back then. Dunno.


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